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Thread: Stopped, AGAIN in Oly, this time had a gun pulled on me...

  1. #1
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    Lesse, I've been trying to calm down for about two hours now...

    Did the one mile walk from the marina to downtown, OCing my P-89 and wearing slacks and a fleece jacket from work.

    Went into a local store to get tea, covered up before going in, because of my no OC at places I work at policy.

    Got tea, and was leaving store when I saw a cop enter and circle the parking lot. Was standing at intersection waiting for light. My jacket was zipped up and I was OCing again.

    Then it went downhill...

    Officer O'Neil told me to come up to his car. I had my drink in my strong hand, and kept my other hand very visible. He tells me his partner is behind me with his weapon drawn.

    I get told that they have had "several" calls about me. Tells me I need to get a CPL and use it. I tell him I have one, but it does not obligate me to conceal. Ask him if he has seen the training directive from Lt. Wilson. O'Neil admits he has, but blows it off, telling me that if people are alarmed at seeing me OC then I am violating their constitutional rights and that trumps my RKBA...

    I take a deep breath for a second. Staying calm the whole time, I remind him that mere OC is not sufficient to warrant alarm, blah blah blah. We know the drill.

    O'Neil gives me the choice to cover up or he will take my weapon. I was tempted for a minute to make it difficult for him (After all I could use the money from the lawsuit so to put it in my backpack. I told them to go ahead and put it in my backpack (my other handgun is out of service until I get a new rear sight blade and sight it back in so really didn't want to lose this one)

    Officer Schaeffer (of previously putting my weapon in my backpack fame) took my gun, removed the magazine, emptied the magazine, cleared the chamber, and emptied my spare mag, and (with my permission) put it all in my backpack. When I turned around and saw Schaeffer, I just smiled and said "Hello. Again." He was quick to tell me that they weren't searching my backpack. There was a third officer, with heavy tattoos on his arms standing there as well.

    O'Neil refused to tell me which officer had drawn a weapon on me, telling me this was "his stop" or words to that effect. He also refused to provide business cards (I confirmed, they are not REQUIRED to do so) or to write down the officer's names and badge numbers for me.

    O'Neil's tone was hostile and angry the whole time. He kept telling me how they weren't violating my RKBA arms BUT... this IS Olympia after all, yadda, yadda, yadda.

    It was all I could do not to look him square in the face and tell him "Bad Cop. No donut. Bad Cop! Bad, bad Cop!" I really f-ing wanted to. I'm still shaken by this...

    Anyway, I made a beeline for the OPD headquarters, and was able to reach Lt. Wilson. He immediatly told me that a lecture on the evils of OC was improper. I recounted the event to him, and he will be looking into this again. I won't go into detail right now, but he was in total agreement that this was a screwed up stop, and in no way attempted to discourage me from OCing.

    Anyway, a solution to this problem was suggested, but I don't know if it is proper to discuss it in the open right now.

    I'm tired and pissed right now, but still believe that even if some of the lower ranks are hostile to OC, that those in charge still seem to know what is what.

    Anyway, as this unfolds I'll post more. I'm really tired right now, and will be back online tomorow.



  2. #2
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Maybe:

    Wear a blue tooth headset, or a regular cell phoneear bud with mic.

    Have a home telephone recorder that records to tape AND one that you can set to record messages up to 30+ minutes. (you could also set up a computer to do that)

    When cops approach you just speed dial your pre-arranged message recorder. Keep your microphone visable, just as if you were 'normally using your cell phone.'

    That will enable you to record the entire conversation with the cops AND since you are using a cell phone with a VISABLE microphone it should be legal in WA (no presumption of privacy, since mic is visable).

    I'm no lawyer so you should check the legality of this for yourself.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

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    I'm not even sure what to say. Having a gun drawed on you? That's a tad extreme. Hopefully Lt. Wilson will settle this fairly and let the hammer fail. It is Olympia, afterall!

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    G27 wrote:
    I'm not even sure what to say. Having a gun drawed on you? That's a tad extreme. Hopefully Lt. Wilson will settle this fairly and let the hammer fail. It is Olympia, afterall!
    I had an informal chat with Lt. Wilson. I am satisfied that things will get dealt with. He did tell me that O'Neill lecturing me was improper. We have to wait and see if a report is filed. If a weapon was drawn there will be a report. Lt. Wilson thought that an officer handling a weapon right off the bat was improper. Now, please note I was not in a position to see if any officer drew on me. I have to take O'Neil's word for it. He wouldtell me who drew, so don't know until tomorow what went down behind me. I will be hearing from Lt. Wilson later about this.

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    Dang, I just found out about the Colorado shooting. This crap always happens to me after a high profile shooting...

    Still

  6. #6
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Improper?! That was coercion, plain and simple. O’Neill used his authority under the color of law to coerce you.The law is the law, if this rogue officer cannot behave within the limits of the law he needs to find other employment.

    …if people are alarmed at seeing me OC then I am violating their constitutional rights and that trumps my RKBA...
    Where is this so-called right enumerated in the Washington Constitution?

    I would be outraged at this behavior. Since I was subject to the same treatment from Olsen during my first stop, I know how you must feel.

    We really need to do an OC lunch down there.

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    G27 wrote:
    I'm not even sure what to say. Having a gun drawed on you? That's a tad extreme. Hopefully Lt. Wilson will settle this fairly and let the hammer fail. It is Olympia, afterall!
    I had an informal chat with Lt. Wilson. I am satisfied that things will get dealt with. He did tell me that O'Neill lecturing me was improper. We have to wait and see if a report is filed. If a weapon was drawn there will be a report. Lt. Wilson thought that an officer handling a weapon right off the bat was improper. Now, please note I was not in a position to see if any officer drew on me. I have to take O'Neil's word for it. He wouldtell me who drew, so don't know until tomorow what went down behind me. I will be hearing from Lt. Wilson later about this.
    Seems that Lt. Wilson is decent enough, so far...

    Hopefully this situation will be taken care of to your satisfaction.

    Keep us posted on the updates!

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Mainsail wrote:
    We really need to do an OC lunch down there.
    I second that......any weekend is good for me....

    Given the severity of this, I think an immediate and powerful response is in order......care for some visitors at the marina, sv?

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    Jesus! I can see why you were so shaken! I got warm tea compared to you.

    I am glad you are OK.

    At some point we are going to have to let the copsseize out property and then sue the crap out of them. This rousting only plays to their strengths.

    Can I recommend a winning strategy?

    1. We start a legal defense fund pool and agree to split the winnings after we win.

    2.Out of the fundput on retainer a top level Lawyer to put the screws to these guys. I mean a top draw lawyer. We can probably put him on retainer for $500. I am willing to put up $100to get the ball rolling.

    3. We ask him to describe a perfect stop that will not place us in jeopardy, yetwill look good in court. What words should we avoid? What must we say by law, etc.

    4. We open carry.


    This is no different than the type of training protesters get before going out to protest against tree cutting or some such. By arming ourselves with the law beforehand; we can prang the system so that we get left alone, instead of thishigh level but hidden pressure to conform.


    I welcome ideas and observations.

    I also apologize to the LEO's on this forum. I realize your job is tough, etc. However, these Gestapo tactics to get us to conform are over the top. Someone is going to get hurt doing bullcrap like this stop.




  10. #10
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Anyway, a solution to this problem was suggested, but I don't know if it is proper to discuss it in the open right now.
    Unless it involves severe reprimand and/or demotion/dock-in-pay... or, better yet, dismissal from the force for commiting a crime (a misdemeanor is still a crime), then I don't think any solution suggested is sufficient.

    The fact that they not only knew that OC was legal but that there was an officer present that could affirm your identity and that you were carrying a legally-owned and carried sidearm... this is just inexcusable and, dare I say it, Draconian.

    I hope to hear good things from you in regards to what Lt. Wilson relates has been done about this absolute debacle of constitutional rights.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    Damn, sv_lib, that is just not right. Here's hoping that Lt. Wilson (seems like a real decent cop) will make heads roll, although serious discipline from within the department may be expecting a bit much, even with a reasonable guy like Wilson around.

    I'm not all that close to Olympia, but if you guys want to do an OC lunch down there sometime, I'll definitely try to make it. Can't let these goofballs keep us down.

    Dave_pro2a wrote:
    Wear a blue tooth headset, or a regular cell phoneear bud with mic.

    Have a home telephone recorder that records to tape AND one that you can set to record messages up to 30+ minutes. (you could also set up a computer to do that)

    When cops approach you just speed dial your pre-arranged message recorder. Keep your microphone visable, just as if you were 'normally using your cell phone.'

    That will enable you to record the entire conversation with the cops AND since you are using a cell phone with a VISABLE microphone it should be legal in WA (no presumption of privacy, since mic is visable).

    I'm no lawyer so you should check the legality of this for yourself.
    No need for that even: State v. Flora established that on-duty police officers have no expectation of privacy, so you can record any interactions you have with them in public without their knowledge or consent.

    Still, it would be convenient to have things automatically recorded at home, so no funny business can occur should they decide to confiscate the recorder as "evidence..."

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    It would appear that you have "irritated" one or more of these officers by "going over their heads". What you may like to pass on to Lt. Wilson is that, since it is acknowledged by all (except maybe these officers) that OC is legal, and they keep stopping you in the same general area for open carrying, that you might be forced to bring a lawsuit for harassment if it continues. One time is good for a "learning experience" and after that it is clearly harassment.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member Johnny Law's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Officer O'Neil told me to come up to his car. I had my drink in my strong hand, and kept my other hand very visible. He tells me his partner is behind me with his weapon drawn.

    I get told that they have had "several" calls about me. Tells me I need to get a CPL and use it. I tell him I have one, but it does not obligate me to conceal. Ask him if he has seen the training directive from Lt. Wilson. O'Neil admits he has, but blows it off, telling me that if people are alarmed at seeing me OC then I am violating their constitutional rights and that trumps my RKBA...
    sv,

    This entire contact seems very odd. Wasn't O'neil the Officer who contacted you before? If he felt comfortable enough to just have you walk up to his car, I don't know why another Officer would feel the need to have his weapon pointed at you.

    He even aknowledged the training bulletin! You did well to not antagonize him at that time, as that would have only escalated things, and he was already upset. Taking it to his supervisor was the right thing to do.

    Amlevin may well be right that you have pissed off O'neil (with the training bulletin) but it sounds like he overstepped his bounds on this one.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Johnny Law wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Officer O'Neil told me to come up to his car. I had my drink in my strong hand, and kept my other hand very visible. He tells me his partner is behind me with his weapon drawn.

    I get told that they have had "several" calls about me. Tells me I need to get a CPL and use it. I tell him I have one, but it does not obligate me to conceal. Ask him if he has seen the training directive from Lt. Wilson. O'Neil admits he has, but blows it off, telling me that if people are alarmed at seeing me OC then I am violating their constitutional rights and that trumps my RKBA...
    sv,

    This entire contact seems very odd. Wasn't O'neil the Officer who contacted you before? If he felt comfortable enough to just have you walk up to his car, I don't know why another Officer would feel the need to have his weapon pointed at you.

    He even aknowledged the training bulletin! You did well to not antagonize him at that time, as that would have only escalated things, and he was already upset. Taking it to his supervisor was the right thing to do.

    Amlevin may well be right that you have pissed off O'neil (with the training bulletin) but it sounds like he overstepped his bounds on this one.
    Briefly, as I don't have a lot of time online right now...

    O'Neil was not the same officer as the first time, although one of his backup was present the first time.

    Given as I had a choice to conceal, or have my weapon taken, plus the attitude, I was not happy.

    There were two officers behind me, O'Neill was out of his car, and in front of me. Told me to walk over to his car. I will explain the layout tomorow when I have more time. I can't verify right now that a weapon was drawn, only that O'Neil told me that one was.

    If Lt. Wilson can make things right to my satisfaction I will be happy. Again, I'll have more time and probably info tomorrow, after Lt. Wilson gets back to me.


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    My schedule does not have a lot of room in it this week, but if anyone is up for an OC dinner on Sunday evening, lemme know. I'll check my schedule and see what time I get off.

    Thanks for the solidarity guys. I kinda like the idea of a legal defense fund.... If it happens, I'll throw into it!


    I don't think my ID was ran at the scene, it was over too quick. O'Neil just wrote the number down...

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    Steve, I am going to PM a name and contact info to you. He is an attorney who specializes in this type of activity. As a former Police Officer of the highest calibre, now retired due to injury, he delights in taking to task the bad apples.

    I think He would gladly write a letter to the Dept, and probably not charge much at all. At least give him a call, you will probably get a short free consultation.

    Jim

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    Can we demand that a supervisor or Watch Commander be called to the scene before you do anything? Would they do it?

    LoveMyCountry



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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    LoveMyCountry wrote:
    Can we demand that a supervisor or Watch Commander be called to the scene before you do anything? Would they do it?

    LoveMyCountry

    Well, if they taser you they have to have a sergeant respond.

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    God dammit that pisses me off! It really sounds like that officer has a personal vendetta against you. I would start leaving the CPL on the boat as long as you are walking, That way when they tell you to cover it up you can say, "are you trying tocoerce me into breaking the law officer?"

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Johnny Law wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Officer O'Neil told me to come up to his car. I had my drink in my strong hand, and kept my other hand very visible. He tells me his partner is behind me with his weapon drawn.

    I get told that they have had "several" calls about me. Tells me I need to get a CPL and use it. I tell him I have one, but it does not obligate me to conceal. Ask him if he has seen the training directive from Lt. Wilson. O'Neil admits he has, but blows it off, telling me that if people are alarmed at seeing me OC then I am violating their constitutional rights and that trumps my RKBA...
    sv,

    This entire contact seems very odd. Wasn't O'neil the Officer who contacted you before? If he felt comfortable enough to just have you walk up to his car, I don't know why another Officer would feel the need to have his weapon pointed at you.

    He even aknowledged the training bulletin! You did well to not antagonize him at that time, as that would have only escalated things, and he was already upset. Taking it to his supervisor was the right thing to do.

    Amlevin may well be right that you have pissed off O'neil (with the training bulletin) but it sounds like he overstepped his bounds on this one.
    Briefly, as I don't have a lot of time online right now...

    O'Neil was not the same officer as the first time, although one of his backup was present the first time.

    Given as I had a choice to conceal, or have my weapon taken, plus the attitude, I was not happy.

    There were two officers behind me, O'Neill was out of his car, and in front of me. Told me to walk over to his car. I will explain the layout tomorow when I have more time. I can't verify right now that a weapon was drawn, only that O'Neil told me that one was.

    If Lt. Wilson can make things right to my satisfaction I will be happy. Again, I'll have more time and probably info tomorrow, after Lt. Wilson gets back to me.
    SV LIB

    I get the feeling like Lt Wilson is just giving you lip service. Telling you anything to get you off the phone , and in the background cover for his officers. For all you know he is doing nothing to inform his troops. I am sorry this happened to you. I am not happy about this at all. I agree with mainsail to have an OC gathering down in Oly. I believe that ONiel deserves a reprimand, a letter in his folder, or something. A written formal complaint to the department has to be responded to. Perhaps Trigger Docs, suggestion may not be a bad idea.



    good luck my friend.

    Preston

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    This Sunday sounds good. Maybe a lunch meet. I don't know oly, so where do you recommend?

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    45-1911

    Preston,

    Did you see the table with the Marlin Rifle collection? The jolly fat guy setting there is my attorney friend referred to SV Lib.

    Is he gun friendly

    Jim

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    Regular Member thebastidge's Avatar
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    I think I would have told them that I would not cover up. No offense, and you have to do what you think is right (and fits your circumstances), but I believe they were bluffing, and if they actually did take it, it would be illegal siezure. Not just a crime under Washington law, WA consitution, but also Federal Constitution. Since they apparently drew a weapon, and you were undoubtedly detained, it would seem to qualify as an arrest also, quite possibly a false arrest.

    But anyway, the seizure of your property, that would definitely get a case going. Right now, it's still he-said he-said ********.

    I think I will most definitely be getting one of these before I open carry at home:

    http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProdu...duct_Id=158384
    Be prepared. Be very prepared.

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  24. #24
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    Past time for formal complaints for all your stops. Make the brass monkeys do some work. When they get tired of some real work they'll make sure the rank and file leave you alone or suffer the consequences (initially with letters in their files then days off if it continues). And get a tape recorder or use your cell phone in some creative way, etc... This all makes me want tosling a shot gun and get some coffee up in Washington.
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    Wow. Thanks again guys, advice and suggestions always welcome.

    I am still at this moment waiting to hear back from Lt. Wilson. I had to go up to Lynnwood last night, and will be leaving Seattle back for Oly shortly. When I get downtown, I plan to pay the OPD another visit if I have not heard back from them.

    An audio recorder is definately on my purchase list now, and possibly a camcorder.

    I refused to cover up, and my other option was to have my weapon taken from me. I decided to take a route that would get it over with quickest, given O'Neil's attitude and possibly instabilities I chose a more peaceful ending.

    I agree, vendetta is a possibility. Why the rank and file OPD are not happy with OC is beyond me, but they are going to have to learn to live with it.

    I am going to ask for a meeting with Lt. Wilson, either the Chief or watch Commander, the Mayor or City Manager, and someone from the City Attorney's Office. I emailed Trigger Doc's lawyer friend, and inquired as to consultation rates, and the possibility of getting a letter written.

    I don't think Lt. Wilson was paying me lip service yesterday. We really didn't address the weapon being drawn, as that has to wait fora report to be filed. That I will accept as long as is dealt with quickly. He did tell me right off the bat that having my ass chewed (my words) for OC was improper behavior. I believe I pulled him out of something else, as the front desk initially told me that neither Lt. Wilson, the Chief, or Commander was available, and I would have to wait half an hour for a Sgt. When I told the front desk I had a weapon drawn on me, Lt. Wilson came out a couple of minutes later. He checked the call logs and was able to verify at least on call about me walking across the 4th Ave bridge OCing.

    I will be requesting call logs, 911 call(s), etc, etc, etc...

    I am really tempted to talk to a reporter, but want to wait a bit and see what happens.

    This crap has got to end. O'Neil was very hostile and very unprofessional. I am going to start making noise as soon as I get downtown.

    Steve

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