Stopped, AGAIN in Oly, this time had a gun pulled on me...

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Lesse, I've been trying to calm down for about two hours now...

Did the one mile walk from the marina to downtown, OCing my P-89 and wearing slacks and a fleece jacket from work.

Went into a local store to get tea, covered up before going in, because of my no OC at places I work at policy.

Got tea, and was leaving store when I saw a cop enter and circle the parking lot. Was standing at intersection waiting for light. My jacket was zipped up and I was OCing again.

Then it went downhill...

Officer O'Neil told me to come up to his car. I had my drink in my strong hand, and kept my other hand very visible. He tells me his partner is behind me with his weapon drawn.

I get told that they have had "several" calls about me. Tells me I need to get a CPL and use it. I tell him I have one, but it does not obligate me to conceal. Ask him if he has seen the training directive from Lt. Wilson. O'Neil admits he has, but blows it off, telling me that if people are alarmed at seeing me OC then I am violating their constitutional rights and that trumps my RKBA...

I take a deep breath for a second. Staying calm the whole time, I remind him that mere OC is not sufficient to warrant alarm, blah blah blah. We know the drill.

O'Neil gives me the choice to cover up or he will take my weapon. I was tempted for a minute to make it difficult for him (After all I could use the money from the lawsuit so to put it in my backpack. I told them to go ahead and put it in my backpack (my other handgun is out of service until I get a new rear sight blade and sight it back in so really didn't want to lose this one)

Officer Schaeffer (of previously putting my weapon in my backpack fame) took my gun, removed the magazine, emptied the magazine, cleared the chamber, and emptied my spare mag, and (with my permission) put it all in my backpack. When I turned around and saw Schaeffer, I just smiled and said "Hello. Again." He was quick to tell me that they weren't searching my backpack. There was a third officer, with heavy tattoos on his arms standing there as well.

O'Neil refused to tell me which officer had drawn a weapon on me, telling me this was "his stop" or words to that effect. He also refused to provide business cards (I confirmed, they are not REQUIRED to do so) or to write down the officer's names and badge numbers for me.

O'Neil's tone was hostile and angry the whole time. He kept telling me how they weren't violating my RKBA arms BUT... this IS Olympia after all, yadda, yadda, yadda.

It was all I could do not to look him square in the face and tell him "Bad Cop. No donut. Bad Cop! Bad, bad Cop!" I really f-ing wanted to. I'm still shaken by this...

Anyway, I made a beeline for the OPD headquarters, and was able to reach Lt. Wilson. He immediatly told me that a lecture on the evils of OC was improper. I recounted the event to him, and he will be looking into this again. I won't go into detail right now, but he was in total agreement that this was a screwed up stop, and in no way attempted to discourage me from OCing.

Anyway, a solution to this problem was suggested, but I don't know if it is proper to discuss it in the open right now.

I'm tired and pissed right now, but still believe that even if some of the lower ranks are hostile to OC, that those in charge still seem to know what is what.

Anyway, as this unfolds I'll post more. I'm really tired right now, and will be back online tomorow.

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Maybe:

Wear a blue tooth headset, or a regular cell phoneear bud with mic.

Have a home telephone recorder that records to tape AND one that you can set to record messages up to 30+ minutes. (you could also set up a computer to do that)

When cops approach you just speed dial your pre-arranged message recorder. Keep your microphone visable, just as if you were 'normally using your cell phone.'

That will enable you to record the entire conversation with the cops AND since you are using a cell phone with a VISABLE microphone it should be legal in WA (no presumption of privacy, since mic is visable).

I'm no lawyer so you should check the legality of this for yourself.

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I'm not even sure what to say. Having a gun drawed on you? That's a tad extreme. Hopefully Lt. Wilson will settle this fairly and let the hammer fail. It is Olympia, afterall!

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G27 wrote:

I'm not even sure what to say. Having a gun drawed on you? That's a tad extreme. Hopefully Lt. Wilson will settle this fairly and let the hammer fail. It is Olympia, afterall!

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I had an informal chat with Lt. Wilson. I am satisfied that things will get dealt with. He did tell me that O'Neill lecturing me was improper. We have to wait and see if a report is filed. If a weapon was drawn there will be a report. Lt. Wilson thought that an officer handling a weapon right off the bat was improper. Now, please note I was not in a position to see if any officer drew on me. I have to take O'Neil's word for it. He wouldtell me who drew, so don't know until tomorow what went down behind me. I will be hearing from Lt. Wilson later about this.

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Dang, I just found out about the Colorado shooting. This crap always happens to me after a high profile shooting...

Still:cuss::banghead:

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Improper?! That was coercion, plain and simple. O’Neill used his authority under the color of law to coerce you.The law is the law, if this rogue officer cannot behave within the limits of the law he needs to find other employment.

…if people are alarmed at seeing me OC then I am violating their constitutional rights and that trumps my RKBA...

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Where is this so-called right enumerated in the Washington Constitution?

I would be outraged at this behavior. Since I was subject to the same treatment from Olsen during my first stop, I know how you must feel.

We really need to do an OC lunch down there.

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sv_libertarian wrote:

G27 wrote:

I'm not even sure what to say. Having a gun drawed on you? That's a tad extreme. Hopefully Lt. Wilson will settle this fairly and let the hammer fail. It is Olympia, afterall!

Click to expand...

I had an informal chat with Lt. Wilson. I am satisfied that things will get dealt with. He did tell me that O'Neill lecturing me was improper. We have to wait and see if a report is filed. If a weapon was drawn there will be a report. Lt. Wilson thought that an officer handling a weapon right off the bat was improper. Now, please note I was not in a position to see if any officer drew on me. I have to take O'Neil's word for it. He wouldtell me who drew, so don't know until tomorow what went down behind me. I will be hearing from Lt. Wilson later about this.

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Seems that Lt. Wilson is decent enough, so far...

Hopefully this situation will be taken care of to your satisfaction.

Keep us posted on the updates!

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Mainsail wrote:

We really need to do an OC lunch down there.

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I second that......any weekend is good for me....

Given the severity of this, I think an immediate and powerful response is in order......care for some visitors at the marina, sv? :lol:

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Jesus! I can see why you were so shaken! I got warm tea compared to you.

I am glad you are OK.

At some point we are going to have to let the copsseize out property and then sue the crap out of them. This rousting only plays to their strengths.

Can I recommend a winning strategy?

1. We start a legal defense fund pool and agree to split the winnings after we win.

2.Out of the fundput on retainer a top level Lawyer to put the screws to these guys. I mean a top draw lawyer. We can probably put him on retainer for $500. I am willing to put up $100to get the ball rolling.

3. We ask him to describe a perfect stop that will not place us in jeopardy, yetwill look good in court. What words should we avoid? What must we say by law, etc.

4. We open carry.


This is no different than the type of training protesters get before going out to protest against tree cutting or some such. By arming ourselves with the law beforehand; we can prang the system so that we get left alone, instead of thishigh level but hidden pressure to conform.


I welcome ideas and observations.

I also apologize to the LEO's on this forum. I realize your job is tough, etc. However, these Gestapo tactics to get us to conform are over the top. Someone is going to get hurt doing bullcrap like this stop.

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sv_libertarian wrote:

Anyway, a solution to this problem was suggested, but I don't know if it is proper to discuss it in the open right now.

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Unless it involves severe reprimand and/or demotion/dock-in-pay... or, better yet, dismissal from the force for commiting a crime (a misdemeanor is still a crime), then I don't think any solution suggested is sufficient.

The fact that they not only knew that OC was legal but that there was an officer present that could affirm your identity and that you were carrying a legally-owned and carried sidearm... this is just inexcusable and, dare I say it, Draconian.

I hope to hear good things from you in regards to what Lt. Wilson relates has been done about this absolute debacle of constitutional rights.

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Damn, sv_lib, that is just not right. Here's hoping that Lt. Wilson (seems like a real decent cop) will make heads roll, although serious discipline from within the department may be expecting a bit much, even with a reasonable guy like Wilson around.

I'm not all that close to Olympia, but if you guys want to do an OC lunch down there sometime, I'll definitely try to make it. Can't let these goofballs keep us down. :cuss:

Dave_pro2a wrote:

Wear a blue tooth headset, or a regular cell phoneear bud with mic.

Have a home telephone recorder that records to tape AND one that you can set to record messages up to 30+ minutes. (you could also set up a computer to do that)

When cops approach you just speed dial your pre-arranged message recorder. Keep your microphone visable, just as if you were 'normally using your cell phone.'

That will enable you to record the entire conversation with the cops AND since you are using a cell phone with a VISABLE microphone it should be legal in WA (no presumption of privacy, since mic is visable).

I'm no lawyer so you should check the legality of this for yourself.

Click to expand...

No need for that even: State v. Flora established that on-duty police officers have no expectation of privacy, so you can record any interactions you have with them in public without their knowledge or consent.

Still, it would be convenient to have things automatically recorded at home, so no funny business can occur should they decide to confiscate the recorder as "evidence..."

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It would appear that you have "irritated" one or more of these officers by "going over their heads". What you may like to pass on to Lt. Wilson is that, since it is acknowledged by all (except maybe these officers) that OC is legal, and they keep stopping you in the same general area for open carrying, that you might be forced to bring a lawsuit for harassment if it continues. One time is good for a "learning experience" and after that it is clearly harassment.

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sv_libertarian wrote:

Officer O'Neil told me to come up to his car. I had my drink in my strong hand, and kept my other hand very visible. He tells me his partner is behind me with his weapon drawn.

I get told that they have had "several" calls about me. Tells me I need to get a CPL and use it. I tell him I have one, but it does not obligate me to conceal. Ask him if he has seen the training directive from Lt. Wilson. O'Neil admits he has, but blows it off, telling me that if people are alarmed at seeing me OC then I am violating their constitutional rights and that trumps my RKBA...

Click to expand...

sv,

This entire contact seems very odd. Wasn't O'neil the Officer who contacted you before? If he felt comfortable enough to just have you walk up to his car, I don't know why another Officer would feel the need to have his weapon pointed at you.

He even aknowledged the training bulletin! You did well to not antagonize him at that time, as that would have only escalated things, and he was already upset. Taking it to his supervisor was the right thing to do.

Amlevin may well be right that you have pissed off O'neil (with the training bulletin) but it sounds like he overstepped his bounds on this one.

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Johnny Law wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

Officer O'Neil told me to come up to his car. I had my drink in my strong hand, and kept my other hand very visible. He tells me his partner is behind me with his weapon drawn.

I get told that they have had "several" calls about me. Tells me I need to get a CPL and use it. I tell him I have one, but it does not obligate me to conceal. Ask him if he has seen the training directive from Lt. Wilson. O'Neil admits he has, but blows it off, telling me that if people are alarmed at seeing me OC then I am violating their constitutional rights and that trumps my RKBA...

Click to expand...

sv,

This entire contact seems very odd. Wasn't O'neil the Officer who contacted you before? If he felt comfortable enough to just have you walk up to his car, I don't know why another Officer would feel the need to have his weapon pointed at you.

He even aknowledged the training bulletin! You did well to not antagonize him at that time, as that would have only escalated things, and he was already upset. Taking it to his supervisor was the right thing to do.

Amlevin may well be right that you have pissed off O'neil (with the training bulletin) but it sounds like he overstepped his bounds on this one.

Click to expand...

Briefly, as I don't have a lot of time online right now...

O'Neil was not the same officer as the first time, although one of his backup was present the first time.

Given as I had a choice to conceal, or have my weapon taken, plus the attitude, I was not happy.

There were two officers behind me, O'Neill was out of his car, and in front of me. Told me to walk over to his car. I will explain the layout tomorow when I have more time. I can't verify right now that a weapon was drawn, only that O'Neil told me that one was.

If Lt. Wilson can make things right to my satisfaction I will be happy. Again, I'll have more time and probably info tomorrow, after Lt. Wilson gets back to me.

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My schedule does not have a lot of room in it this week, but if anyone is up for an OC dinner on Sunday evening, lemme know. I'll check my schedule and see what time I get off.

Thanks for the solidarity guys. I kinda like the idea of a legal defense fund.... If it happens, I'll throw into it!


I don't think my ID was ran at the scene, it was over too quick. O'Neil just wrote the number down...

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Steve, I am going to PM a name and contact info to you. He is an attorney who specializes in this type of activity. As a former Police Officer of the highest calibre, now retired due to injury, he delights in taking to task the bad apples.

I think He would gladly write a letter to the Dept, and probably not charge much at all. At least give him a call, you will probably get a short free consultation.

Jim

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Can we demand that a supervisor or Watch Commander be called to the scene before you do anything? Would they do it?

LoveMyCountry

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LoveMyCountry wrote:

Can we demand that a supervisor or Watch Commander be called to the scene before you do anything? Would they do it?

LoveMyCountry

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Well, if they taser you they have to have a sergeant respond.

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God dammit that pisses me off! It really sounds like that officer has a personal vendetta against you. I would start leaving the CPL on the boat as long as you are walking, That way when they tell you to cover it up you can say, "are you trying tocoerce me into breaking the law officer?"

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sv_libertarian wrote:

Johnny Law wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

Officer O'Neil told me to come up to his car. I had my drink in my strong hand, and kept my other hand very visible. He tells me his partner is behind me with his weapon drawn.

I get told that they have had "several" calls about me. Tells me I need to get a CPL and use it. I tell him I have one, but it does not obligate me to conceal. Ask him if he has seen the training directive from Lt. Wilson. O'Neil admits he has, but blows it off, telling me that if people are alarmed at seeing me OC then I am violating their constitutional rights and that trumps my RKBA...

Click to expand...

sv,

This entire contact seems very odd. Wasn't O'neil the Officer who contacted you before? If he felt comfortable enough to just have you walk up to his car, I don't know why another Officer would feel the need to have his weapon pointed at you.

He even aknowledged the training bulletin! You did well to not antagonize him at that time, as that would have only escalated things, and he was already upset. Taking it to his supervisor was the right thing to do.

Amlevin may well be right that you have pissed off O'neil (with the training bulletin) but it sounds like he overstepped his bounds on this one.

Click to expand...

Briefly, as I don't have a lot of time online right now...

O'Neil was not the same officer as the first time, although one of his backup was present the first time.

Given as I had a choice to conceal, or have my weapon taken, plus the attitude, I was not happy.

There were two officers behind me, O'Neill was out of his car, and in front of me. Told me to walk over to his car. I will explain the layout tomorow when I have more time. I can't verify right now that a weapon was drawn, only that O'Neil told me that one was.

If Lt. Wilson can make things right to my satisfaction I will be happy. Again, I'll have more time and probably info tomorrow, after Lt. Wilson gets back to me.

Click to expand...

SV LIB

I get the feeling like Lt Wilson is just giving you lip service. Telling you anything to get you off the phone , and in the background cover for his officers. For all you know he is doing nothing to inform his troops. I am sorry this happened to you. I am not happy about this at all. I agree with mainsail to have an OC gathering down in Oly. I believe that ONiel deserves a reprimand, a letter in his folder, or something. A written formal complaint to the department has to be responded to. Perhaps Trigger Docs, suggestion may not be a bad idea.



good luck my friend.

Preston