Kitsap County Commisioner's Meeting

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Mike wrote:

Does Kittsap have an ordinance banning gun carry in their admin building? If so, what does it say? Or are are these toads just putting up no gun signs? Do they have metal detectors?

Once we know the answers to those questions, a strategy may become easier to deduce.

Perhaps start off slowly by asking the County manger to remove the illegal signs. This will get the ball rolling - if they have a good story why state law allows them to ban guns, they will likley tell you.

I'm going to sticky this thread for now - I think you are on to somthing and can force them to take down the no-gun signs even if they won't back down and repeal their park gun ban ordinance.

And let's keep Mainsail in reserve for now

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I'm rather curious. Why do you think they will remove illegal signs from a building when they won't remove an illegal law from their books?

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Trigger Dr wrote:

One part of 9.41.300 that bothers me in this scenario is" those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings;"

Are there any of the court staff having offices in the building?

Jim

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I'll research that, Jim. I'll get back to you.

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gregma wrote:

I'm rather curious. Why do you think they will remove illegal signs from a building when they won't remove an illegal law from their books?

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3reasons: (1) That has been the actual experience in other states like Virginia where ordinances are invalidated by state statute yet stay on the locality's books, the locality will bend under public pressure to remove the signs; (2) The sign itself presents a clear threat of enforcement enabling a civil action to have the sign declared invalid and the ordered removed, hence the locality wants to avoid this and related bad publicity about an "illegal sign"; and (3) I just checked the Kitsap ordiances online and found no ordinance banning gun carry in buildings per se, just an obvious preempted ordiance banning carry of loaded handguns off one's property anywhere in the County without a license to carry.

So as it would appear that the County's no gun signs are not even within the scope of County ordinances, at least as applicable to permit holders, the signs posted appear to be "illegal." Like Bloomberg says"illegal guns," we can say "illegal signs."

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Mike wrote:

Does Kittsap have an ordinance banning gun carry in their admin building? If so, what does it say?

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I will research that as well, however, even if they do, it would be "preempted and repealed" by RCW 9.41.290 State Preemption.

Do they have metal detectors?

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The metal detectors are immediately inside the front door of the courthouse across the street from the administration building. The firearms lock boxes are located there as well. There are no metal detectors at the administration building, just a sign that says no weapons with the gun in a red circle and a line through the gun.

I think that my letters over a month and a half period stirred the pot. Probably, the prosecutor's staff started researching the firearms in parks issue and discovered that I was right about state preemption. They then expanded their research to include other places that the county bans firearms, and thought about all the county buildings. That is probably what was being discussed while I was excluded from the meeting.

After I had been invited back, one of the three County Commissioners (Jan Angel) related a story about someone who walked into her office with a concealed weapon, and then exposed it in a threatening manner (I don't know the end of the story; I hope they caught the idiot!). It scared her badly, and she is now quite leery, naturally, of allowing firearms in county buildings. I think she is the lone conservative on the board, but she has a lot of reservations regarding firearms.

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Ajetpilot wrote:

There are no metal detectors at the administration building, just a sign that says no weapons with the gun in a red circle and a line through the gun.

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OK, so as there are apparently (1) no metal detectors at County buildings except the courthouse, and (2) no ordinance banning gun carry totoally in County buildings, and (3) the only ordiance banning cary generally has a permit holder exemption and (4) even that ordiance is preempted, I'd say you are in pretty good shape to demand that the signs be taken down.

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But getting the bozos to admit they are wrong, and have them taken down... I believe the OPD has illegal signs up too... but they get touchy about it.

Personally I am thinking paying a good lawyer to write a letter to Kitsap County may be a good start.

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sv_libertarian wrote:

But getting the bozos to admit they are wrong, and have them taken down... I believe the OPD has illegal signs up too... but they get touchy about it.

Personally I am thinking paying a good lawyer to write a letter to Kitsap County may be a good start.

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We get signs removed in Vigrinia all teh time - it's fun, actually.

Save your money for a civil action if necessary - just start by calling the County manager and asking him to remove the illegal sign.

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Mike wrote:

gregma wrote:

I'm rather curious. Why do you think they will remove illegal signs from a building when they won't remove an illegal law from their books?

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3reasons: (1) That has been the actual experience in other states like Virginia where ordinances are invalidated by state statute yet stay on the locality's books, the locality will bend under public pressure to remove the signs; (2) The sign itself presents a clear threat of enforcement enabling a civil action to have the sign declared invalid and the ordered removed, hence the locality wants to avoid this and related bad publicity about an "illegal sign"; and (3) I just checked the Kitsap ordiances online and found no ordinance banning gun carry in buildings per se, just an obvious preempted ordiance banning carry of loaded handguns off one's property anywhere in the County without a license to carry.

So as it would appear that the County's no gun signs are not even within the scope of County ordinances, at least as applicable to permit holders, the signs posted appear to be "illegal." Like Bloomberg says"illegal guns," we can say "illegal signs."

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Ahhhhh. I think I understand now. Although the signs at the parks are illegal because the ordinance they are based on are illegal, they still have that illegal ordinance in place and bury their head in the sand about that.

However, the signs on the administration building aren't even backed up by any ordinance (legal or illegal), thus have no standing on any leg.

Is that the thinking?

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gregma wrote:

Ahhhhh. I think I understand now. Although the signs at the parks are illegal because the ordinance they are based on are illegal, they still have that illegal ordinance in place and bury their head in the sand about that.

However, the signs on the administration building aren't even backed up by any ordinance (legal or illegal), thus have no standing on any leg.

Is that the thinking?

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My brain hurts now... So until they dump the illegal ordiance.... AARRAAGGHHH!!! :banghead:

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That's the game folks - they will likley not repeal their illegal ordiances, but when pressed, will have to admit the ordinances are unenforceable and they will remove the sign(s).

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Ajetpilot wrote:

Mike wrote:

OK, so now that the County has stated that they will leave the preempted park ordinances banning gun carry in parks on the books, you might as well move on the challenging the County Building gun ban - if you are sure they are preempted, just walk in open carrying.

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I'll tell you what, Mike. When I take my shower tonight, I'll check and see how big a set I have. Do you know how many deputies are walking around that building? If Mainsail is ready to come and bail me out, I might do it.

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Before going and getting yourself arrested, may I suggest a respectfully penned letter to the Kitsap County Prosecutor, outlining your concerns, quoting available case law and asking for his opinion? You might also suggest he ask for an AG opinion on the issue, since county prosecutors have the right to request one from the AG.

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Marty Hayes wrote:

Before going and getting yourself arrested, may I suggest a respectfully penned letter to the Kitsap County Prosecutor, outlining your concerns, quoting available case law and asking for his opinion? You might also suggest he ask for an AG opinion on the issue, since county prosecutors have the right to request one from the AG.

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Hi Marty,

I have no intention of getting myself arrestedfor disobeying that sign.As long as that sign is there, I will check my firearm in at the courthouse before crossing thestreet and entering the administration building.

I do, however, continue to carry at the park, because I know I am on solid legal ground, regardless of the (preempted and repealed) Kitsap County Code that supposedly prohibits me from doing so. Having been physically attacked there once, before I started carrying, I feel much safer with a visible firearm as a deterrent.

When I first started my letter writing campaign to various county officials several months ago, I wrote to the prosecutor - twice. The ONLY response I ever got from his office was a form letter that referenced an RCW that prohibits prosecutors from giving legal advice to citizens. The letter suggested that I contact an attorney. The letter I had written to him did not ask for advice. I never received any further communication from his office, and I was excluded from the Commissioner's Briefing when a member of his staff spoke.

Thanks for the suggestion regarding the AG request. I will write to the prosecutor again and make that suggestion, however I doubt that I will get any response based on his previous lack of communication.

Bruce

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Guys - take the easy route first - just call the County Manager and ask him to remove the illegal sign. You can do that today in 90 seconds.

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Mike wrote:

Guys - take the easy route first - just call the County Manager and ask him to remove the illegal sign. You can do that today in 90 seconds.

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I think that's the County Administrator:Nancy Buonanno Grennan http://www.kitsapgov.com/admin/

Phone number from the contact list: 360-337-7146

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When I wrote my original letter to the commissioners, they forwarded it to Nancy Grennan to deal with. She was very helpful and kept me updated. She asked the prosecutor for a brief and got the issue put on the session for the meeting this past Monday. I don't know which "side" she is on, as she never expressed an opinion about the issue, but did get things done. Unfortunately, there was only so much she could do, the rest was up to the commissioners, and we know how that went. Grennan would likely be a good contact to ask to have illegal signs removed.

I think the key here is going to be a letter-writing campaign to express the rampant dissapointment in the county government's disregard for the law and to show that following the law is important to citizens, whether the criminal is other citizens or the government itself.

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If you are asking for a letter writing campaign, I'll chime in. Just let me know.

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I think letters would be helpful, especially directed to the commissioners to express, as I said before, that people do not like when the government breaks the law any more than when fellow citizens do it. I suppose we could also write the prosecutor (may be pointless, based on Ajetpilot's past communication with him) and sheriff, to see if they enforce the KCC ordinance. As soon as I finish school for the quater (last final today!), I will be composing my letter(s) to various officials. In the least: one to the commissioners expressing the above and one to Nancy Grennan thanking her for her effort. I will post the letter(s) here and may be able to post some of my past communication also.

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I'm in too, since I live in Edmonds, which is just a 30 minute ferry ride to the County in question.

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I understand your position. We have an ordinance on the books banning firearms in the parks in our city.

We don't enforce it because it is illegal.

Doesn't mean the city will remove that portion of the code. Our municipal judge attempted to make the entire city hall closed to firearms carry so long as court was in session (the city hall building includes the PD, court and city hall). The judge was told no and the only portion where firearms cannot be carried is those portions of the court under control and when court is in session (the court room and adjoining open area where the metal detector is set).

I'll agree with Marty. A solid point there.

Another point is that just because the law is on the book doesn't mean that the sheriff and local police chiefs have instructed the deputies and officers not to enforce that portion of the county code. We get that frequently because the council will enact laws that are flawed.

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Ajetpilot wrote:

Had a great day at the park. The Sheriff didn't show up, so maybe he and the prosecutor have decided that any action against me would be a non-starter. Then I had a lot of errands to run, and I OD'ed the entire day. As usual, no problems.

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If you really want to press the matter, then have a friend call the police anonymously from a pay phone and ask "Is it legal for someone to carry a gun in the park, cause I saw a guy there a few minutes ago who had a gun on his hip?"

If the cops say "Yes, it's legal" then the Commission was just saving face and won't enforce the "illegal" ordinance. It still doesn't make what they did right.

If the cops send someone out to investigate, any negative contact constitutes illegal harrassment and maybe false imprisonment.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and I am not recommending any course of action, legal or otherwise. The statement above is purely hypothetical. Any course of action taken by any person based on those statements are solely their own responsibility.