sv_libertarian
State Researcher
imported post
This is his letter... below is my response I had to wait outside the OPD waiting area as it is posted "No firearms" I expressed to the front desk that I felt the sign was illegal as it was nota restricted access area...
Mr. Coffman,
Thank you for coming in yesterday to "vent" about your contact with our officers. I would like to set a few things straight and to assure you that you are not being singled out nor are we somehow going to damage your property or give you a valid reason for a law suit. Our officers are aware and have been trained recently about the Open Carry issue and your Constitutional right to bear arms.
Our community, including our police force, is not and probably never will be at ease with people walking around with a gun or any other instrument capable of inflicting deadly force.You are right in your opinion that mere calling 911 to report a person openly carrying a weapon does not, in and of itself, meet the legal thresholds for violations of RCWs 9.41.270 or 9.41.300. This has been ruled upon by our State Supreme Court and other courts around the country.
State law is clear about where a person's right to possess or have control over a weapon is prohibited. It is also clear about a jurisdiction's right to limit access to public facilities:
RCW 9.41.300 reads in part . . .
(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:
(a) . . . restricted access areas of a jail or of a law enforcement facility
(b) . . . areas of any building which are used in conjunction with court proceedings…
(c) . . . restricted access areas of a public mental health facility…
(d) . . . portions of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits topersons undertwenty- oneyears of age…
(e) . . . restricted areas of a commercial service airport…
(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:
(a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article 1, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others…
(b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, exceptions noted.
State law is also clearwhen a violationoccurs:
RCW 9.41.270 reads in part . . .
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
State law is also clear about school campuses:
RCW 9.41.280 reads in part . . .
(1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:
You know of course that our officers have to investigate all circumstances, each and every time, to determine if a violation of any oftheseRCWs has occurred.
We received two calls yesterday about a man carrying an automatic pistol on his hip. The complaints were not specific as to what you were doing other than you were in the process of walking downtown. As you know we check out this type of complaint quickly since it involvespotentially adeadly weapon and thelikelihood that the individual carrying the weapon may want to do harm to others.
As I explained beforeofficers have a right to protect themselves and that is their first priority as they approach any situation. Our mission is to protect life, property and individual rights. I'm sure you can agree with me that our mission is in line with what a reasonable person would expect from their police force. Our officers cannot protect others without first arriving safely at the incident scene, evaluating the circumstances with the minimal facts known to them at the time, and making sure any weapons that you may have on you are rendered safe at least for the brief time the officers are in your presence.
Our officers will conduct themselves professionally and treat you with respect. Our officers should not engage you in a philosophical debate about the merits of Open Carry or your rights as a citizen to own or carry arms. Officers should not coerce you into carrying your weapon concealed or trying to get you to change your behavior so long as it is legal behavior. You will likely get our officers discussing your behavior which may have lead to people calling 911. We expect them to do this.
I understand that you may have engaged in a discussion about the legalities of Open Carry. I strongly urge you not to do this. My reasoning is simple; when you or the officers engage in a debate people on either side of the issue tend not to listen and therefore the debate is not productive nor satisfying to either party. I also urge you to avoid staging any "test" or "scenario" that might further your nationwide efforts to engage the police on the Open Carry issue. Having read your website and many others I believe that is one of your missions to "educate" the police about Open Carry. In my opinion that is unnecessary.
Mr. Coffman, I want to urge you and others who carry weapons openly to be very careful in the way you conduct your personal actions especially while you interact with others. People whoopenly carry weapons are not immune to human frailties of arguments, disputes, victimization, etc., etc. I am only stating this because I worry about you inadvertently placing yourself in danger of being shot. Please, if you notice the police in your proximity, especially if you see them approaching you, stop and keep yourhands in plain sight. Obey every command they maygive you.
We realize that people such as yourself haveintervened to prevent people from being seriously wounded or killed at the hands of suicidal or homicidal people. This week's Colorado church shooting is a great example of it. Thank you for not entering the police lobby the other day which might have subjected our staff to unnecessary alarm. I'll let you know if it would be appropriate at a future time to have you meet with our officers. I'm not sure it would be productive or desired from our officers' point of view.
If you have questions or just want to talk please give me a call.
Best regards,
Bill Wilson, Lt.
O.P.D.
Thank you for your response. I was pretty shook up yesterday. The stop in and off itself was not what bothered me, but rather the statement that "my partner has his weapon drawn" I still do not know if this was actually the case but the words enough of course have to be taken at face value and it was disturbing. This on top of the fact I was a passenger in a three car accident Sunday... Well it just hasn't been my week I do understand where a weapon can and cannot be carried. I believe you are refering to my questioning of if the waiting area in the OPD would be considered off limits or not. I will accept the signage (as I did) although it was inconvient at the time...
When Officer O'Neil started "lecturing" me, I felt the need at the time to argue my point... Given as I was asked why I didn't conceal, and the choice I was given to conceal or surrender my weapon, I felt stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I don't mind having a bit of a discussion about the matter, in fact quite frankly if any officer wants to talk about it, I'm more than happy to give my email address, or even buy them coffee off shift and talk. I wish I had not been coerced into giving up my weapon, but the deed is done, and hopefully will not be repeated.
I as well am unsure if speaking to the officers would be appropriate, as it may merely serve as an irritant.
Regarding those of us who do open carry, the interesting thing is that we generally go about our business, go to dinners together, meet and have coffee, and have never had any major problems with it. I'm sure you can see reports of dinners that have gone off without a hitch.
Olympia in and of itself seems to be unique of late with issues. Now I understand that the public will continue to be concerned, and I try what I can to educate, and I expect officers to respond to calls. There has to be some give and take though. Officer O'Neil was improper with his attitude and choices he gave me. I chose the easier road and allowed my rights to be violated. I really hope that I will told to make this choice again. Strangely enough I was in complete possession of my weapon until I told them to go ahead and put it in my bag as I would not conceal it.
I want to know ifa weapon was drawn. I would also like to know what will be done to ensure that I am not subject to some of the questionable acts again. I would like to arrange a meeting with you, Chief Michel, and someone either from the Mayor's office or City Manager's office and someone from the City Attorney's office. Some serious issues were raised here, and I would like to address them to a broader group.
I am going to post your message (as I'm sure you expected) online to let others know what you have asked me to pass on.
When I see officers around or are approached by them, I always keep my hands in plain sight, and follow commands given. Officer O'Neil askedme to cover up or that I would have my weapon taken. Since I was not going to cover up I told him to go ahead and take the weapon. In my strong hand was a cup of tea, and my left was kept chest high.
I worry that some may have a vendetta or issues with open carry, and quite frankly that scares the crap out of me. I hope I can safely continue my activities which always are conducted in a peaceful manner. I am in Seattle right now, but when I get back to Olympia, may stop in the police station and ask for you. I do have my weapon, and will stay in the enclosure per the signage, and probably will have my weapon in my backpack.
Thank you again,
Steve
This is his letter... below is my response I had to wait outside the OPD waiting area as it is posted "No firearms" I expressed to the front desk that I felt the sign was illegal as it was nota restricted access area...
Mr. Coffman,
Thank you for coming in yesterday to "vent" about your contact with our officers. I would like to set a few things straight and to assure you that you are not being singled out nor are we somehow going to damage your property or give you a valid reason for a law suit. Our officers are aware and have been trained recently about the Open Carry issue and your Constitutional right to bear arms.
Our community, including our police force, is not and probably never will be at ease with people walking around with a gun or any other instrument capable of inflicting deadly force.You are right in your opinion that mere calling 911 to report a person openly carrying a weapon does not, in and of itself, meet the legal thresholds for violations of RCWs 9.41.270 or 9.41.300. This has been ruled upon by our State Supreme Court and other courts around the country.
State law is clear about where a person's right to possess or have control over a weapon is prohibited. It is also clear about a jurisdiction's right to limit access to public facilities:
RCW 9.41.300 reads in part . . .
(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:
(a) . . . restricted access areas of a jail or of a law enforcement facility
(b) . . . areas of any building which are used in conjunction with court proceedings…
(c) . . . restricted access areas of a public mental health facility…
(d) . . . portions of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits topersons undertwenty- oneyears of age…
(e) . . . restricted areas of a commercial service airport…
(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:
(a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article 1, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others…
(b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, exceptions noted.
State law is also clearwhen a violationoccurs:
RCW 9.41.270 reads in part . . .
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
State law is also clear about school campuses:
RCW 9.41.280 reads in part . . .
(1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:
You know of course that our officers have to investigate all circumstances, each and every time, to determine if a violation of any oftheseRCWs has occurred.
We received two calls yesterday about a man carrying an automatic pistol on his hip. The complaints were not specific as to what you were doing other than you were in the process of walking downtown. As you know we check out this type of complaint quickly since it involvespotentially adeadly weapon and thelikelihood that the individual carrying the weapon may want to do harm to others.
As I explained beforeofficers have a right to protect themselves and that is their first priority as they approach any situation. Our mission is to protect life, property and individual rights. I'm sure you can agree with me that our mission is in line with what a reasonable person would expect from their police force. Our officers cannot protect others without first arriving safely at the incident scene, evaluating the circumstances with the minimal facts known to them at the time, and making sure any weapons that you may have on you are rendered safe at least for the brief time the officers are in your presence.
Our officers will conduct themselves professionally and treat you with respect. Our officers should not engage you in a philosophical debate about the merits of Open Carry or your rights as a citizen to own or carry arms. Officers should not coerce you into carrying your weapon concealed or trying to get you to change your behavior so long as it is legal behavior. You will likely get our officers discussing your behavior which may have lead to people calling 911. We expect them to do this.
I understand that you may have engaged in a discussion about the legalities of Open Carry. I strongly urge you not to do this. My reasoning is simple; when you or the officers engage in a debate people on either side of the issue tend not to listen and therefore the debate is not productive nor satisfying to either party. I also urge you to avoid staging any "test" or "scenario" that might further your nationwide efforts to engage the police on the Open Carry issue. Having read your website and many others I believe that is one of your missions to "educate" the police about Open Carry. In my opinion that is unnecessary.
Mr. Coffman, I want to urge you and others who carry weapons openly to be very careful in the way you conduct your personal actions especially while you interact with others. People whoopenly carry weapons are not immune to human frailties of arguments, disputes, victimization, etc., etc. I am only stating this because I worry about you inadvertently placing yourself in danger of being shot. Please, if you notice the police in your proximity, especially if you see them approaching you, stop and keep yourhands in plain sight. Obey every command they maygive you.
We realize that people such as yourself haveintervened to prevent people from being seriously wounded or killed at the hands of suicidal or homicidal people. This week's Colorado church shooting is a great example of it. Thank you for not entering the police lobby the other day which might have subjected our staff to unnecessary alarm. I'll let you know if it would be appropriate at a future time to have you meet with our officers. I'm not sure it would be productive or desired from our officers' point of view.
If you have questions or just want to talk please give me a call.
Best regards,
Bill Wilson, Lt.
O.P.D.
Thank you for your response. I was pretty shook up yesterday. The stop in and off itself was not what bothered me, but rather the statement that "my partner has his weapon drawn" I still do not know if this was actually the case but the words enough of course have to be taken at face value and it was disturbing. This on top of the fact I was a passenger in a three car accident Sunday... Well it just hasn't been my week I do understand where a weapon can and cannot be carried. I believe you are refering to my questioning of if the waiting area in the OPD would be considered off limits or not. I will accept the signage (as I did) although it was inconvient at the time...
When Officer O'Neil started "lecturing" me, I felt the need at the time to argue my point... Given as I was asked why I didn't conceal, and the choice I was given to conceal or surrender my weapon, I felt stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I don't mind having a bit of a discussion about the matter, in fact quite frankly if any officer wants to talk about it, I'm more than happy to give my email address, or even buy them coffee off shift and talk. I wish I had not been coerced into giving up my weapon, but the deed is done, and hopefully will not be repeated.
I as well am unsure if speaking to the officers would be appropriate, as it may merely serve as an irritant.
Regarding those of us who do open carry, the interesting thing is that we generally go about our business, go to dinners together, meet and have coffee, and have never had any major problems with it. I'm sure you can see reports of dinners that have gone off without a hitch.
Olympia in and of itself seems to be unique of late with issues. Now I understand that the public will continue to be concerned, and I try what I can to educate, and I expect officers to respond to calls. There has to be some give and take though. Officer O'Neil was improper with his attitude and choices he gave me. I chose the easier road and allowed my rights to be violated. I really hope that I will told to make this choice again. Strangely enough I was in complete possession of my weapon until I told them to go ahead and put it in my bag as I would not conceal it.
I want to know ifa weapon was drawn. I would also like to know what will be done to ensure that I am not subject to some of the questionable acts again. I would like to arrange a meeting with you, Chief Michel, and someone either from the Mayor's office or City Manager's office and someone from the City Attorney's office. Some serious issues were raised here, and I would like to address them to a broader group.
I am going to post your message (as I'm sure you expected) online to let others know what you have asked me to pass on.
When I see officers around or are approached by them, I always keep my hands in plain sight, and follow commands given. Officer O'Neil askedme to cover up or that I would have my weapon taken. Since I was not going to cover up I told him to go ahead and take the weapon. In my strong hand was a cup of tea, and my left was kept chest high.
I worry that some may have a vendetta or issues with open carry, and quite frankly that scares the crap out of me. I hope I can safely continue my activities which always are conducted in a peaceful manner. I am in Seattle right now, but when I get back to Olympia, may stop in the police station and ask for you. I do have my weapon, and will stay in the enclosure per the signage, and probably will have my weapon in my backpack.
Thank you again,
Steve