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Email from Lt. Wilson

Mainsail

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Mr. Coffman, I want to urge you and others who carry weapons openly to be very careful in the way you conduct your personal actions especially while you interact with others. People whoopenly carry weapons are not immune to human frailties of arguments, disputes, victimization, etc., etc. I am only stating this because I worry about you inadvertently placing yourself in danger of being shot.
Please, if you notice the police in your proximity, especially if you see them approaching you, stop and keep yourhands in plain sight. Obey every command they maygive you.
I split this paragraph in two because I’m not sure how the two disparate thoughts are related. In the first part, Lt Wilson seems to be implying that someone carrying openly may get angry or upset over something small (like road rage or being verbally accosted for example) and result in a shooting. This is absolutely ridiculous. I know of one group who carries openly every day and is subjected to all manner of verbal abuse; yet somehow they rarely go apeshit and shoot someone over it. That group is the police. So unless all the police officers are neutered or taking happy pills before they come on shift, they are every bit as human as anyone else. I think this may be the OPD problem; the police consider themselves ‘above’ the public, instead of being public servants.
 

Springfield45

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Get A Life wrote:
I ama mamber of the NRA, I shoot on a regular basis, am extremely conservative, and support the Second Amendment. But I don't understand why there is a small group that insists on alarming the general public by OC.The general public does not understand the gun culture and may be alarmed by OC. It is people like you that give responsible gun owners a bad name. Is your life so boring and mundane that you need the attention of the local police department. You like to set up the local cops because you know theyhave strict rules of engageme
nt and are limited by your actions.I bet a majority of you OC Dirty Harry gun slinging types still live at home with your mommy. Your father got smart and left years ago. You wanted to be a cop, but couldnt pass the psych.You people need to Get a Life and become responsible gun owners. Your irresponsible actions make it tuff for the rest of us.



Get A Life!
Get A Life Wrote: "What part is not true?"

Items highlighted in RED are not true.
Items highlighted in ORANGE are also questionable.
Items highlighted in GREEN are most likely accurate.

Answer your question?


~~Springfield

P.S. Sorry L.W. ... I couldn't resist, This Troll looked hungry.... lol

Edited for further thoughts and spelling. by Springfield
 

massltca

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Maryville, Tennessee, USA
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Springfield45 wrote:
Get A Life wrote:
I ama mamber of the NRA, I shoot on a regular basis, am extremely conservative, and support the Second Amendment. But I don't understand why there is a small group that insists on alarming the general public by OC.The general public does not understand the gun culture and may be alarmed by OC. It is people like you that give responsible gun owners a bad name. Is your life so boring and mundane that you need the attention of the local police department. You like to set up the local cops because you know theyhave strict rules of engageme
nt and are limited by your actions.I bet a majority of you OC Dirty Harry gun slinging types still live at home with your mommy. Your father got smart and left years ago. You wanted to be a cop, but couldnt pass the psych.You people need to Get a Life and become responsible gun owners. Your irresponsible actions make it tuff for the rest of us.



Get A Life!
Get A Life Wrote: "What part is not true?"

Items highlighted in RED are not true.
Items highlighted in ORANGE are also questionable.
Items highlighted in GREEN are most likely accurate.

Answer your question?


~~Springfield

P.S. Sorry L.W. ... I couldn't resist. lol
+1
 

Dave_pro2a

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Get A Life wrote:
I ama mamber of the NRA, I shoot on a regular basis, am extremely conservative, and support the Second Amendment. But I don't understand why there is a small group that insists on alarming the general public by OC.The general public does not understand the gun culture and may be alarmed by OC. It is people like you that give responsible gun owners a bad name. Is your life so boring and mundane that you need the attention of the local police department. You like to set up the local cops because you know theyhave strict rules of engagement and are limited by your actions.I bet a majority of you OC Dirty Harry gun slinging types still live at home with your mommy. Your father got smart and left years ago.You wanted to be a cop, but couldnt pass the psych.You people need to Get a Life and become responsible gun owners. Your irresponsible actions make it tuff for the rest of us.



Get A Life!

Hi Cop. :monkey



Get a life.
 

Dave_pro2a

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sv_libertarian wrote:
Our community, including our police force, is not and probably never will be at ease with people walking around with a gun or any other instrument capable of inflicting deadly force.
You are right Wilson, I am not comfortable with cops walking around carrying an instrument capable of inflicting deadly force.



But I respect the constitutional rights of a police officer to bear arms. I ask only for the same respect -- since we are all citizens, equal under the law.
 

Dave_pro2a

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sv_libertarian wrote:
Mr. Coffman, I want to urge you and others who carry weapons openly to be very careful in the way you conduct your personal actions especially while you interact with others. People whoopenly carry weapons are not immune to human frailties of arguments, disputes, victimization, etc., etc. I am only stating this because I worry about you inadvertently placing yourself in danger of being shot.


Gee Wilson, that statement could flow two ways.

Cops carry weapons. Cops are not immune to human frailties and defects of character that lead to arguments, disputes, victimizations, etc. etc. (by the way, saying et cetera 2x is redundant). Cops inadvertently place themselves in danger of being shot.

But I'd never make thestatement that you made, because I would NEVER make an implied threat against a police officer -- such as you have clearly made against every person who open carries (especially the original poster).

I refuse to even think like you.

Just remember, that anything you say about citizens is going to betrue about police officers as well.. because a police officer is JUST a person. You, Wilson, and your fellow officers are merely citizens, like myself, and other members of your community.
 

just_a_car

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sv_libertarian wrote:
I understand that you may have engaged in a discussion about the legalities of Open Carry. I strongly urge you not to do this. My reasoning is simple; when you or the officers engage in a debate people on either side of the issue tend not to listen and therefore the debate is not productive nor satisfying to either party. I also urge you to avoid staging any "test" or "scenario" that might further your nationwide efforts to engage the police on the Open Carry issue. Having read your website and many others I believe that is one of your missions to "educate" the police about Open Carry. In my opinion that is unnecessary.
That paragraph alone steels my reserve to absolutely must have the next meeting be in downtown Olympia.

HOW DARE HE attempt to disuade any group from legally organizing in protest of illegal actions?! The United States Constitution's Bill of Rights protects that act.

Mr. Wilson, I hope you do read our website and realize how utterly screwed you and your department are.
 

Johnny Law

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Dave_pro2a wrote:
You are right Wilson, I am not comfortable with cops walking around carrying an instrument capable of inflicting deadly force.



But I respect the constitutional rights of a police officer to bear arms. I ask only for the same respect -- since we are all citizens, equal under the law.
Dave,

Do not mistake this as support for Oly. P.D.'s stance on this but, To become an Officer you have to jump through a hell of a lot more hoops than what is needed as a citizen to carry a gun. Out of 100+ applicants there MAY be 1 that appears qualified. It took me 1 whole year of testing before I was hired.

A guy walking down the street with a gun is a unknown quantity, and subject to the public's perception.

I am fully aware that there are cops on the job that should not be there, and I am all for getting rid of them. Just please don't assume that just anyone is hired as a cop, because that is far from the case.
 

sv_libertarian

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Olympia, WA, ,
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joeroket wrote:
Code:
Thank you for not entering the police lobby the other day which might have subjected our staff to unnecessary alarm.

WTH??? Does he know that he cannot stop you from carrying in the lobby in a legal manner? The only areas that are off limits are the restricted areas of a law enforcement facility. The lobby does not qualify as such.What does the signage posted say? And exactly how legally carrying a pistol cause alarm in there.

It sure does sound to me like OPD needs to get off thier high horse. I believe this is the second time you have heard the "This is Olympia afterall" comment. It doesn't matter where the heck it is in the state.
First you pass through a set of doors into an enclosed area with a phone box. The doors to the lobby have a no guns sign, and says no firearms except by commissioned law enforcement (or words to that effect)
 

sv_libertarian

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Lots o' worms in this here can...

I believe Lt. Wilson may have been trying to dissuade us fromhaving an OC dinner in Oly.

Right now they also have 15 complaints from protesters who were involved in the blockading protests of the Port of Olympia... Methinks they are rather overworked.

I requested a meeting with several city bigwigs, etc... I believe this is being worked on. Things could get interesting.
 

Dave_pro2a

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Johnny Law wrote:
Dave_pro2a wrote:
You are right Wilson, I am not comfortable with cops walking around carrying an instrument capable of inflicting deadly force.



But I respect the constitutional rights of a police officer to bear arms. I ask only for the same respect -- since we are all citizens, equal under the law.
Dave,

Do not mistake this as support for Oly. P.D.'s stance on this but, To become an Officer you have to jump through a hell of a lot more hoops than what is needed as a citizen to carry a gun. Out of 100+ applicants there MAY be 1 that appears qualified. It took me 1 whole year of testing before I was hired.

A guy walking down the street with a gun is a unknown quantity, and subject to the public's perception.

I am fully aware that there are cops on the job that should not be there, and I am all for getting rid of them. Just please don't assume that just anyone is hired as a cop, because that is far from the case.

I understand what you're saying, but I stand by my opinion. For instance, lets look at what you said with a slightly different twist:

"A police officerwalking down the street with a gun is a unknown quantity, and subject to the public's perception."

That statment is true Primae facia, because even you admit that despite training and background checkrequirements there are some police officers that should not actually be on the force.

Every cop, to a free citizen, is an 'unknown quantity.' That issue is made worse by the inherent unequal distribution of power, and by the fact police are allowed (and encouraged) to lie as a part of performing their job.
 

sv_libertarian

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compmanio365 wrote:
That's right, I forgot about the protests down there by the port. Sounds like Olympia has been busy pissing everyone off lately. Time to lay the proverbial smackdown on them.

I'm workin' on it:lol: I spoke with Sgt. Paul Johnson, daytime supervisor today, and he said that "they are still getting to know me."

He also gave me his cell number.

Well, they need to get to know me real quick. I'm sick of this crap. And quite frankly while I think the protesters pretty much got what they were asking for, they are annoying me more by clogging the system.
 

Dave_pro2a

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sv_libertarian wrote:
compmanio365 wrote:
That's right, I forgot about the protests down there by the port. Sounds like Olympia has been busy pissing everyone off lately. Time to lay the proverbial smackdown on them.

I'm workin' on it:lol: I spoke with Sgt. Paul Johnson, daytime supervisor today, and he said that "they are still getting to know me."

He also gave me his cell number.

Well, they need to get to know me real quick. I'm sick of this crap. And quite frankly while I think the protesters pretty much got what they were asking for, they are annoying me more by clogging the system.
So you're 'allowed' to exercise your inalienable rights... but only if the police 'know' you?

"Move along there sonny, you don't have the right to free speech because 'we're still getting to know you.'"

:cuss:
 

gregma

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Mar 27, 2007
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Redmond, Washington, USA
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sv_libertarian wrote:
Thank you for coming in yesterday to "vent" about your contact with our officers.
Well, at least the facts finally come out that this Lt. Wilson is DEFINATELY not on the side of the citizens legally carrying a firearm unless you hide it in shame like criminals.

"Vent"? Is that what you did? I thought you issued a formal complaint?

engage the police on the Open Carry issue.


Engages the police? It's actually the POLICE that are engaging us! "Open Carry issues"? You mean the *LAW*? Yeah, heaven forbid we actually expect the LAW to be upheld by those who are sworn to uphold it. How DARE we choose to not break the law in front of them! We are little peons who can't handle the responsibility.

Our officers are aware and have been trained recently about the Open Carry issue and your Constitutional right to bear arms.

This is an out-and-out LIE! If these so-called "officers" are aware and have been trained then the stop would have *NEVER OCCURRED*!! Period, full stop.

Our community, including our police force, is not and probably never will be at ease with people walking around with a gun or any other instrument capable of inflicting deadly force.
Here's where we are getting the true feelings of the OPD. I don't *CARE* if or when anyone will be "at ease" with my taking responsibility for my own protection. And he actually said the cops will NEVER be comfortable with armed citizens? Well, maybe the thugs.

As far as his reference to .290, there they go AGAIN with the CRAP about "causing alarm". Anything to keep us peons down under their boots...

You know of course that our officers have to investigate all circumstances, each and every time, to determine if a violation of any of these RCWs has occurred.
Investigations do NOT have to require face-to-face, and deadly force encounters. All that is *required* for a 911 call of a person walking along the street openly carrying a firearm is a drive-by and observation.

Our mission is to protect life, property and individual rights.
Another out-and-out LIE! They do NOT care about individual rights. If they did, this encounter would have NEVER occured.

evaluating the circumstances with the minimal facts known to them at the time, and making sure any weapons that you may have on you are rendered safe at least for the brief time the officers are in your presence.
WRONG! Unless they can ARTICULATE probable cause that a crime is HAPPENING or is ABOUT TO HAPPEN, they have NO right to escalate to the threat of deadly force by aiming their firearm at the peaceable citizen. Period, full-stop.

Our officers will conduct themselves professionally and treat you with respect.

Yet another out-and-out lie. You just proved that. Of course I'm SURE the report won't mention anything about the disrespect. I'm sure he and his "buddies" will say it was your who was unreasonable and acting in a dangerous manner.

I understand that you may have engaged in a discussion about the legalities of Open Carry. I strongly urge you not to do this.
We wouldn't have to "engage in a discussion about the legalities" if the idiot cops would LEARN THE LAW. I would strongly urge the COPS to not engage in a discussion. Just LEAVE US THE HELL ALONE!

My reasoning is simple; when you or the officers engage in a debate people on either side of the issue t
What "Other side of the issue". The law is the law, again, there is no issue! Except with the COPS wanting us to hide our firearms in shame like criminals do.

I am only stating this because I worry about you inadvertently placing yourself in danger of being shot.
WOW! A threat that we might be shot for peaceably carrying a firearm by a jack-booted thug who wears a badge? Priceless.

Please, if you notice the police in your proximity, especially if you see them approaching you, stop and keep your hands in plain sight. Obey every command they may give you.

Even illegal ones. Yeah, just submit. We wear the badge and you have to do everything we tell you to do, legal or not. Because as we were told earlier "there MAY be consequences..." Now we know what those consequences are. "DANGER OF BEING SHOT"...

I'm not sure it would be productive or desired from our officers' point of view.
OH? This jerk has snowed everyone under I guess. At least he's done his job. Prevented two formal complaints from being filed that SHOULD have been filed. At least he used vaseline!

Trust me gentlemen, it WILL get worse if this is not escalated to official complaints to IAB. And to those of you cowards with badges that are monitoring this (and we KNOW you do) we will NOT remain in the back of the bus. We will NOT only drink from those water fountains set aside for us. We will NOT have our civil rights trampled on forever!
 

Dave_pro2a

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Careful Gregma, you might set the RKBA movement back by alienating cops.

I mean they are such strong supporters of OUR Constitutional rights already, having helped us so much in the past with RKBA issues.

We would not want them to start ACTIVELY working against us on the political front.

I mean gee, take Seattle Police Chief Gil Kerlikowskefor example.

That's a stand up fellow who would NEVER get in bed with the Brady bunch and actively try to stop law abiding citizens from protecting themselves.

It sure would suck if suddenly Seattle Police Chief Gil Kerlikowske started to attend anti-gun meetings with City of Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels. If he suddenly used his appointed position as a political tool to tear down the Constitution he has supposedly sworn to uphold.

Oh wait, he already did that. Never mind, go ahead and preach the truth ;)
 

Mainsail

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[size=-1][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242
Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law
[/font][/size]


[align=left][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size=-1]
This statute makes it a crime for any person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom to willfully deprive or cause to be deprived from any person those rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S.

This law further prohibits a person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation or custom to willfully subject or cause to be subjected any person to different punishments, pains, or penalties, than those prescribed for punishment of citizens on account of such person being an alien or by reason of his/her color or race.

Acts under "color of any law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the bounds or limits of their lawful authority, but also acts done without and beyond the bounds of their lawful authority; provided that, in order for unlawful acts of any official to be done under "color of any law," the unlawful acts must be done while such official is purporting or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. This definition includes, in addition to law enforcement officials, individuals such as Mayors, Council persons, Judges, Nursing Home Proprietors, Security Guards, etc., persons who are bound by laws, statutes ordinances, or customs.

Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to one year, or both, and if bodily injury results or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire shall be fined or imprisoned up to ten years or both, and if death results, or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
[/size][/font][/align]
 

Johnny Law

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Dave_pro2a wrote:
I understand what you're saying, but I stand by my opinion. For instance, lets look at what you said with a slightly different twist:

"A police officerwalking down the street with a gun is a unknown quantity, and subject to the public's perception."

That statment is true Primae facia, because even you admit that despite training and background checkrequirements there are some police officers that should not actually be on the force.

Every cop, to a free citizen, is an 'unknown quantity.' That issue is made worse by the inherent unequal distribution of power, and by the fact police are allowed (and encouraged) to lie as a part of performing their job.
The law however does not agree with you, and consequently holds Police to a higher standard than a citizen. This standard applies not only while on duty, but while off as well. It allows for certain freedoms that may be exercised because of the position.

A reasonable person has no reason to think that an Officer is an unknown quantity. There is an public expectation that any Officer is there to uphold the law and actin a rational manner,due to the position theyhold. If there is a question as to the Officer's credibility, a complaint is typically filed, and the matter is investigated.

Remember that many complaints are filed that have no merit, and are lies intended to get back at, or "get the Officer in trouble".

As far as lying goes, your statement is appaling to me. NEVER has anyone ever told me to lie or encouraged me to do so. Lying is probably the #1 reason Officers are fired, believe me I've seen it. It is absolutely unacceptable.

What you may be referring to is what is known as a ruse. This is legal but it only pertains to certain situations. For instance; If I am attempting to contact someone to question them about an incident, and I know that they probably won't answer their door (knowing the Police are there) I can say something like; "Dominoes Pizza" in an attempt to get them toopen the door.

As you can see there are no legal implications, and I'm not trying to get them to do something illegal. I am simply disguising my identity (temporarily) in order to further an investigation. I am not however using the threat of physical harm or force against them, so it is not coercion.
 

just_a_car

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Excellent post Mainsail. I think I'll print that out and start carrying it with me to hand to LEO's if they start walking that line of illegality in regards to coercion.

The fact that there was a "threatened use of a deadly weapon" in SV_Lib's case, means that all officers involved on-siteface TEN YEARS in prison.

I'm sure that makes good ol' Lt. Wilson pucker up quite a bit... since he almost did as much with saying:

People whoopenly carry weapons are not immune to human frailties of arguments, disputes, victimization, etc., etc. I am only stating this because I worry about you inadvertently placing yourself in danger of being shot.

He's walking a very thin line there; he's essentially insinuating that OC'ing will cause someone to place themselves in danger of being shot.
 

Dave_pro2a

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Johnny Law wrote:
As far as lying goes, your statement is appaling to me. NEVER has anyone ever told me to lie or encouraged me to do so. Lying is probably the #1 reason Officers are fired, believe me I've seen it. It is absolutely unacceptable.

What you may be referring to is what is known as a ruse. This is legal but it only pertains to certain situations. For instance; If I am attempting to contact someone to question them about an incident, and I know that they probably won't answer their door (knowing the Police are there) I can say something like; "Dominoes Pizza" in an attempt to get them toopen the door.


Ahh, a ruse. Hey, use whatever term you need to, in order to feel right with God.

A lie is a lie in my book, and detectives are 'empowerd' to use much more insidious lies than your street beat cop Dominos example.
 
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