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Gun-Free Zones Liability Act

joeroket

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John Hardin wrote:
heresolong wrote:
You'll have trouble with the statute or ordinance part. This would require that the state be liable if you are injured in a courtroom or jail where you are prohibited from carrying. I don't think that the state will accept liability. However, remove that and only apply it to areas that the state has NOT prohibited you and I think that you will find a much more receptive audience.

For the record, I like the original, I just think it has much less chance of being passed.
The definition clause already has "open to the public". Is a courtroom or jail considered open to the public (apart from the lobby areas and such) ?

I think that concern is already covered.
Yes a courtroom is open to the public unless it is a closed trial by order of the presiding judge.

I think "open to the public excluding areas off limits as outlined in RCW 9.41.300" would be a better wording for it. The treble liability part for certain individuals, I think is great. It will make people think twice before creating a no gun policy because there are usually no times when there is not a child or disabled person on thier premises. Why shouldn't people who can't get around easily be awarded treble damages because someone does not want firearms in thier building that is open to the public? I think the terrorist and minority clause needs to be removed. The owner of a store cannot control the parking lot where a car bomb occurs which rips into a building and causes death to someone.
 

Decoligny

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joeroket wrote: I think the terrorist and minority clause needs to be removed. The owner of a store cannot control the parking lot where a car bomb occurs which rips into a building and causes death to someone.




Andif it's a suicide bomber, a lot of them use a "deadman switch" once activated, if they are shot, BOOM. So taking them out would not be a viable option.
 

John Hardin

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joeroket wrote:
Yes a courtroom is open to the public unless it is a closed trial by order of the presiding judge.

I think "open to the public excluding areas off limits as outlined in RCW 9.41.300" would be a better wording for it. The treble liability part for certain individuals, I think is great. It will make people think twice before creating a no gun policy because there are usually no times when there is not a child or disabled person on thier premises.
{Crikey, I wish this forum's editor did a better job of editing quotes... :cuss:}

Well, bringing in RCW 9.41.300 leads to "gun free zones defined by law except as excluded by this other law..." - though perhaps letting the state off while still restricting municipalities is not a bad idea.

And the treble damages part: so if a shooter shoots a kid, and only a kid, does liability apply at all since the kid wouldn't be reasonably expected to arm themselves in the first place? And if they shoot me *and* a kid, I get treble damages but the kid gets nothing? That part strikes me as a little odd. Maybe extra wording about the child's parent or guardian being prohibited from being armed. Or would your kid getting shot be legally considered damages to you, and thus be covered by the existing wording?
 

joeroket

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John Hardin wrote:
joeroket wrote:
Yes a courtroom is open to the public unless it is a closed trial by order of the presiding judge.

I think "open to the public excluding areas off limits as outlined in RCW 9.41.300" would be a better wording for it. The treble liability part for certain individuals, I think is great. It will make people think twice before creating a no gun policy because there are usually no times when there is not a child or disabled person on thier premises.
{Crikey, I wish this forum's editor did a better job of editing quotes... :cuss:}

Well, bringing in RCW 9.41.300 leads to "gun free zones defined by law except as excluded by this other law..." - though perhaps letting the state off while still restricting municipalities is not a bad idea.

And the treble damages part: so if a shooter shoots a kid, and only a kid, does liability apply at all since the kid wouldn't be reasonably expected to arm themselves in the first place? And if they shoot me *and* a kid, I get treble damages but the kid gets nothing? That part strikes me as a little odd. Maybe extra wording about the child's parent or guardian being prohibited from being armed. Or would your kid getting shot be legally considered damages to you, and thus be covered by the existing wording?

I would tend to believe that a child being shot in gun free environment would qualify the parent for treble damages. The way I see it is that the adult has a better ability to retreat or defend themselves than a child or handicapped person does.

Maybe not restricting the treble damage clause to a certain group but instead apply it if a death occurs as a result of a shooting would be a better idea. Afterall if a dad or mom are restricted from carrying a firearm and are gunned down by someone then the family should have the ability to go for treble damages because of the loss of income.

Just some random thoughts.
 

Right Wing Wacko

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One also needs to be carefull that one does not "Create" the ability for local municipalities to create Gun Free Zones. Right now they cannot, but if this law is not worded carefully it might be used as justification to create one.After all... "the state says we can, as long as we accept liability"
 

Right Wing Wacko

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John Hardin wrote:
Right Wing Wacko wrote:
One also needs to be carefull that one does not "Create" the ability for local municipalities to create Gun Free Zones.
That's taken care of by 9.41.290 (preemption).
It is now, until some law (perhaps this one) gives them some excuse to claim an exception since it is afterall a state law.
 

John Hardin

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Okay, here's my first draft:

http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/wa_gun_laws_gun_free_zones.txt

Code:
REFERENCE TITLE: Gun-Free-Zone Liability Act
RCW 9A.16 shall be amended by adding a new section 9A.16.130:

RCW 9A.16.130 "Gun-Free" Zones -- Liability.

(1) Any person, organization or entity, or any agency of government, that creates a gun-free zone shall be liable for damages resulting from criminal conduct that occurs against an individual in such gun-free zone, if a reasonable person would believe that possession of a firearm could have helped the individual defend against such conduct. In the event the conduct is a result of a terrorist attack as federally defined, or adversely affects a disabled person, a senior citizen, or a child under 16 years of age, treble damages shall apply.

(2) For the purposes of this section, criminal conduct shall include offenses specified under RCW 9A.32 (Homicide), RCW 9A.36.11 and RCW 9A.36.21 (Assault in the First and Second Degree), RCW 9A.36.045 (Drive-By Shooting), RCW 9A.36.120 and RCW 9A.36.130 (Assault of a Child in the First and Second Degree), RCW 9A.40.020 and 9A.40.030 (Kidnapping in the First and Second Degree), RCW 9A.44.040 and RCW 9A.44.050 (Rape in the First and Second Degree), RCW 9A.48.020 (Arson in the First Degree), RCW 9A.52.020, RCW 9A.52.025 and RCW 9A.52.030 (Burglary in the First and Second Degrees), RCW 9A.52.095 and RCW 9A.52.100 (Vehicle Prowling in the First and Second Degree), RCW 9A.56.030, RCW 9A.56.065, RCW 9A.56.200 and RCW 9A.56.300 (Theft and Robbery in the First Degree, Theft of an Automobile or Firearm), and RCW 9A.76.110, RCW 9A.76.115 and RCW 9A.76.120 (Escape in the First and Second Degrees).

(3) For the purposes of this section, the term "gun-free zone" shall mean any building, office, place, area or curtilage that is open to the public, or in or upon any public conveyance, or in any place of employment, where a person's right or ability to keep arms or to bear arms is infringed, restricted or diminished in any way by statute, policy, rule, regulation, ordinance, utterance or posted signs, excluding those places and circumstances where possession of a firearm is prohibited by RCW 9.41.300.
As you can see, it follows the Arizona bill pretty closely. I haven't looked closely at the other bills yet.

RWW: This doesn't include any exemptions from the liability for providing armed guards or other physical security measures. I don't think a municipality could weasel out of it (at least, not to any greater degree than they already ignore 9.41.300)
 

uncoolperson

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i'd still like something in there addressing the hypothetical of me getting fired for taking my gun to work when/if it becomes a "gun okay" zone.


(not to say i don't like the way you've put it together)


also may want to add something about at the time of the crime or something to that effect to the list... if i get shot in the leg, am i considered disabled and therefore able to get these extended damages?
 

John Hardin

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uncoolperson wrote:
i'd still like something in there addressing the hypothetical of me getting fired for taking my gun to work when/if it becomes a "gun okay" zone.

(not to say i don't like the way you've put it together)
Note I added "any place of employment" to clause (3). I want to carry at work, too.

If your employer has to accept liability for their gun-free office, maybe they will relax the prohibition...
 

uncoolperson

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John Hardin wrote:
uncoolperson wrote:
i'd still like something in there addressing the hypothetical of me getting fired for taking my gun to work when/if it becomes a "gun okay" zone.

(not to say i don't like the way you've put it together)
Note I added "any place of employment" to clause (3). I want to carry at work, too.

If your employer has to accept liability for their gun-free office, maybe they will relax the prohibition...

I'm saying they may relax it, but that doesn't mean i wouldn't lose my job because i brought a gun to work... just means they say it's okay.

hell, it's okay for me to walk into the presidents of the companys office and tell him i think this that or the other is a big waste of my time.... doesn't mean i could expect to be employed the next day.


oooo.... better idea, something to the effect of if it isn't a gun free zone, it will be considered illegal to take unpublished actions to ban the lawful carry of firearms.

a store can kick you out just because they don't want to deal with you.... but make it not okay to say one thing but do another.
 

uncoolperson

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also, maybe add in something that would cover the uniformly infrindging on carrying.... thinking employees that can't carry when the customer can, or customers that can't when the employees can.

(a gun shop isn't a gun free zone, but should be covered under this because customers can't carry [at some anyway]) or a mall with the unarmed security and me with my 45 on my side.
 

Bear 45/70

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Right Wing Wacko wrote:
One also needs to be carefull that one does not "Create" the ability for local municipalities to create Gun Free Zones. Right now they cannot, but if this law is not worded carefully it might be used as justification to create one.After all... "the state says we can, as long as we accept liability"
What government is going to accept liability for anything, ever. Just not in government's nature to accept responsibility for anything they do,say or enact.
 

John Hardin

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joeroket wrote:
... the family should have the ability to go for treble damages because of the loss of income.
The loss of income is one of the basic damages you'd be suing for in the first place. Costs associated with burial, any medical expenses, emotional damage, ...
 

Wheelgunner

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REFERENCE TITLE: Gun-Free-Zone Liability Act
RCW 9A.16 shall be amended by adding a new section 9A.16.130:

RCW 9A.16.130 "Gun-Free" Zones -- Liability.

(1) Any person, organization or entity, or any agency of government, that creates a gun-free zone shall be liable for damages resulting from criminal conduct that occurs against an individual, persons or property in such gun-free zone, if a reasonable person would believe that possession of a firearm could have helped the individual defend against such conduct. In the event the conduct is a result of a terrorist attack as federally defined, or adversely affects a disabled person, a senior citizen, or a child under 16 years of age, treble damages shall apply.

(2) For the purposes of this section, criminal conduct shall include offenses specified under RCW 9A.32 (Homicide), RCW 9A.36.11 and RCW 9A.36.21 (Assault in the First and Second Degree), RCW 9A.36.045 (Drive-By Shooting), RCW 9A.36.120 and RCW 9A.36.130 (Assault of a Child in the First and Second Degree), RCW 9A.40.020 and 9A.40.030 (Kidnapping in the First and Second Degree), RCW 9A.44.040 and RCW 9A.44.050 (Rape in the First and Second Degree), RCW 9A.48.020 (Arson in the First Degree), RCW 9A.52.020, RCW 9A.52.025 and RCW 9A.52.030 (Burglary in the First and Second Degrees), RCW 9A.52.095 and RCW 9A.52.100 (Vehicle Prowling in the First and Second Degree), RCW 9A.56.030, RCW 9A.56.065, RCW 9A.56.200 and RCW 9A.56.300 (Theft and Robbery in the First Degree, Theft of an Automobile or Firearm), and RCW 9A.76.110, RCW 9A.76.115 and RCW 9A.76.120 (Escape in the First and Second Degrees).

(3) For the purposes of this section, the term "gun-free zone" shall mean any building, office, place, area or curtilage that is open to the public, or in or upon any public conveyance, or in any place of employment, where a person's right or ability to keep arms or to bear arms is infringed, restricted or diminished in any way by statute, policy, rule, regulation, ordinance, utterance or posted signs, excluding those places and circumstances where possession of a firearm is prohibited by RCW 9.41.300.

Added persons or property to the body of the law as theft of car was in the original and auto's could be hit by a miss. Would also need a tag saying that this law does not apply to areas already covered by RCW's such as bar or controlled areas of police station, etc. Alsoneed legal languageto insist that a higher insurance level (say 5 Million dollars or more) on a specific gun misuse protection rider be added to a "Designated Gun Free Zone". This hits them where they will hurt the most, their wallet. Anyone here in the insurance or legal profession?

Remember we are attempting to drive them to merely drop their signs. Think expensive and evil but make it sound reasonable.
 

Right Wing Wacko

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Ok... lets say I'm walking along on a Trail in Kitsap County.Because the trail is illegally posted I leave my gun locked up in the car. A Bear, Cougar, or even a Dog attacks me and I am seriously injured or killed.
 

John Hardin

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Wheelgunner wrote:
Added persons or property to the body of the law as theft of car was in the original and auto's could be hit by a miss.

Hmmm. I'm not sure about that. I think it would be better to take out the mention of auto theft rather than to dilute the bill from "crimes against persons" to "crimes against persons and property". I was more thinking of carjacking there, but that could be considered assault. I've changed the crimes list to Robbery 1 and 2, and taken out all the theft RCWs. Theft is when you're not present, so it's not really relevant to this bill
Would also need a tag saying that this law does not apply to areas already covered by RCW's such as bar or controlled areas of police station, etc.

Covered - section (3) says "excluding those places and circumstances where possession of a firearm is prohibited by RCW 9.41.300."

Alsoneed legal languageto insist that a higher insurance level (say 5 Million dollars or more) on a specific gun misuse protection rider be added to a "Designated Gun Free Zone". This hits them where they will hurt the most, their wallet. Anyone here in the insurance or legal profession.
Remember we are attempting to drive them to merely drop their signs. Think expensive and evil but make it sound reasonable.
Hrm. I'll let others comment on this. I don't think it would be a good idea.
 

uncoolperson

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I stilll say add in something about falsely posting or stating a gun okay zone should not be allowed and should be treated as false representation or something.
 

John Hardin

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Revision: inserted a new clause.

(1) Any person, organization or entity, or any agency of government, that creates a gun-free zone shall be liable for damages resulting from criminal conduct that occurs against an individual in such gun-free zone, if a reasonable person would believe that possession of a firearm could have helped the individual defend against such conduct. In the event the conduct is a result of a terrorist attack as federally defined, or adversely affects a disabled person, a senior citizen, or a child under 16 years of age, treble damages shall apply.

(2) Liability for damages is not reduced or eliminated by the provision of armed guards or other physical security measures.

(3) For the purposes of this section, criminal conduct shall include ...
Note that this doesn't discourage armed guards, metal detectors, etc.

Physical security measures will reduce the likelihood of an attack, but they should not be considered reason for avoiding damages for prohibiting self-defense.
 

joshmmm

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I think we should add a strong civil rights argument to it. Clauses broken apart for better clarity and to add comments after each.

No person, of any race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, yadda yadda, (although "No Person" should suffice, this sounds better to the liberal crowd, we can even add more descriptors of person...)

shall have his or her right to self-defense in a non "gun-free zone" infringed (this is simple enough--though we need a catchier name defined for non-gun-free-zone earlier in the statute.)

by a systematic policyof denying employment, housing, membership, attendance, entrance, etc.,(systematic=unwritten and/or written policies barring the activities listed--more should be added to the list...)

ORby any revocation of any of the aformentioned rights/privileges due to the possession of a lawfully carried weapon in a non "gun-free zone", whether systematically or individually,

OR, if by practice/custom/restrictive rule or condition of carrying, the person is constructively denied any of these rights in effect. (Constructive here should be looked at the same way as constructive eviction--You don't have to be told to be kicked out to be evicted, the landlord not fixing your heat is sufficient. Likewise, by the firing of lawful carriers OR the failure to provide adequate raises, or by not accepting a new member who is known to carry, etc. a constructive denial will exist when shown by facts. This is far better than having to prove a pattern or systematic denial--this is the real teeth of this provision.)

Remedies:

If a person is discriminated against in employment matters based on the lawful carrying of a weapon in a "non gun-free zone" he or she shall be entitled to compensation and/or injunctive reliefin a manner consistent with any other Title VII violation for discrimination in employment matters as enacted by statute and interpreted by applicable case-law at the time of the violation.

(Clearly we would have to add a whole bunch to the remedies section here, but it is a start, and I like the idea of having it simply tied to other existing laws. Thus, as the other civil rights laws get stronger, and more cases are hashed out over time, this law grows as well. Getting it passed would be nearly impossible, but if it did get passed, changing it be a whole lot of work to go back and deal with, so let it live and grow on its own...)

This section shall NOT apply to the following:

  • Any person who cannot legally possess a firearm.
  • Any person who does not have a CPL issued by any state of the union
    • unless WA State drops the CPL requirement to carry concealed.
  • Any person, due to the nature of his or her uniform that is reasonably required as necessary to properly fulfill his or her essential job duties, istherefore unable to adequately conceal his or her firearm,only in the case of discrimination in the workplace, so long as this is only applied in the rarest of cases where concealment is impossible to reasonably accomplish and the employee is unable to find a suitable solution to do so. This shall not apply to a company policy forbidding and class of workers from carrying, this shall only apply to an individual employee who, by the nature of a reasonably required uniform, chooses not to carry because of a reasonable and necessary dress code policy that is impossible to comply with; given that the employer has made a reasonable effort to accomodate a reasonable alteration of the dress code to allow for proper concealment of a firearm.
  • Any rule/policy, in a workplace only, that requires employees to make a reasonable effort to conceal the firearm.
(OK, this section sucks, but we have to have it be reasonable and look at the other side. 1 is obvious. 2, seems easy enough. 3, this one sucks, but, honestly, if we try to argue that protected open carry in the office should be the law, we aren't going to get anywhere. Thus, throw in a workplace exception to employees on the clock. I look at this as no different than requiring a tie or forbidding sneakers, if the employer so desires... And, without the third bullet point, think of a lifeguard, or a stripper, or a ballet performer, etc. These exceptions need to be thought about before a sweeping law can be passed. As for the fourth bullet, as I said, that is only a reasonable request that an employer can choose to have his store/office employees dressed as he or she sees fit.

I know this whole section on inapplicability is not well written, I am just too tired. I pulled an all nighter studying last night and am off to bed soon!
 
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