Why do people always make fun of the 9mm?

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Don't say 9mm around me!! I can't ignore it, lol!

But yeah, the difference in 9mm and .40 is tiny, much smaller than many people seem to think. Same with the 9mm vs. .40S&W vs. .45ACP comparison. Check out www.brassfetcher.com for more details. In the end they all are capable of similar expansion and penetration with today's ammo. The .45ACP does tend to edge the others out, but it's not by much at all with good ammo. A 9mm FMJ is going to overpenetrate big time IMO, as you found out.

A good 9mm round should penetrate 12"+ corrected in ballistic gelatin while expanding to .6"-.7", and that's not uncommon with today's bullets.

Federal's .380 Auto Hydrashock expanded to about .45" and penetrated 12" when fired out of a Kel-Tec P3AT (2.75" BBL!!!). The .380 Auto can be just fine with the right ammo. I love technology.

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In Afganistan an insurgent "High on Opium" walked out of this one hut with an AK in his hands.

Doc Vasquez drew his pistol and fired 4 shots into this guys chest. I turned around obviously, and the guy was still walking forward. After three of us opened up on him with our M16A4's he of course dropped.

If some thug is high on something than you can bet he's going to take more rounds than the normal man, but I'm not sure the Caliber will matter enough to make a difference.

Had Doc done a "Failure to Stop" on him. He would have never taken another step. They don't teach the Navy that though LOL !!

2 to the chest, 1 in the head !!!!

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Considering opium's active ingredients are opiates (Significant quantities of morphine and codiene, hence the name opiates/opioids) I guess it's understandable that he could take some rounds and keep going.

Aren't you guys restricted to FMJ ammo too? I would hate to have to fight with most any handgun and have such a limitation. In the case of only being allowed FMJ ammo I do think the .45ACP would be better, if for no other reason than the increased wound volume.

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Honestly I have no clue.

They gave me a Beretta 9mm, with 3 Clips and I never drew it. It just weighed me down.

But myRIFLE on the other hand was well used,

I trusted my rifle for several reasons.



The number 1 reason, is b/c in 2003 my unit recieved 50 crates of the brand new M16A4 with the Rail system on them. I was part of the working party to unpack them and worked with the Armorer to log the serial numbers.

As we were going thru them he asked me what the numbers of the particular rifle I had in my hand was, I said 110921187. He said, "That one's Yours".

For the next 4 years and 2 Combat deployments to Afghan and Fallujah, I was the only person to ever pull the trigger on that rifle. It was literally mine. I had a special bond with that rifle. Then passed it along.

I scored expert with the 9mm about 2 months before I got out, I heard that since that is written on my DD214 Discharge Papers it will wave a training fee required to get a CC in LA.

Hope So, to bad it won't wave the 200$ Fee required for Class III

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How many people died at Virginia tech from a Glock 19,9mm and a .22 pistol? Wasn't it like 32 people?


Shoot em' in the fuckin' face... a LOT.

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Bravo_Sierra wrote:

How many people died at Virginia tech from a Glock 19,9mm and a .22 pistol? Wasn't it like 32 people?


Shoot em' in the fuckin' face... a LOT.

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Slightly profane, but short and straight to the point...I like it.

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I do find it interesting when people say the .22LR is totally useless for self defense. All you have to do is point them to the above incident. It may not be the best caliber to choose, but hit them in the vitals and it certainly will do the job. Penetration is surprisingly good, it just lacks diameter.


I've never bothered to try to search this, but does anyone happen to know what kind of ammunition he used in each caliber? Also, does anyone know if the .22LR was actually proven to have been the fatal round for any of the 32 victims? Kind of morbid, but I just wonder since people often point out that it is an example of the 9mm and/or .22LR being sufficient.

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Weak 9mm wrote:

I do find it interesting when people say the .22LR is totally useless for self defense. All you have to do is point them to the above incident. It may not be the best caliber to choose, but hit them in the vitals and it certainly will do the job. Penetration is surprisingly good, it just lacks diameter.


SNIP

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http://www.gunsandammomag.com/in_the_field/gungear_cci_22/
CCI's New .22 LR Load Has Teeth

By Lee J. Hoots



[align=left]
CCI's 40-grain Velocitor .22 LR load is an excellent choice for small game.

While I mostly shoot centerfire rifles, there are a couple of rimfires in my safe. When I get tired of being bumped around by recoil, I'll turn to one of them for a change of pace. They're excellent practice tools as well, and I love to hunt small game with them, especially when it comes to close-range varminting.[/align]



One is a handy little Kimber 22 I've been shooting for a couple of years. With the exception of chambering .22 LR cartridges, it looks and handles like a big-game rifle. And it shoots as well as some of my centerfire .22s at distances out to 100 yards. What it shoots best is Winchester's 40-grain Power-Point load, but I've found a new offering that performs equally as well in it--CCI's new .22 LR Velocitor.




Velocitors feature a 40-grain Gold Dot bullet and come packed 50 to the box. Published muzzle velocity is 1,435 fps, which is close to 200 fps faster than the Winchester load. The averages we've seen here at G&A, however, are closer to 1,394, but that's still plenty of power for small game.





[align=right] [/align]

[align=right][/align]

[align=right][/align]

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Aguila makes a 30gr .22LR round that reaches a claimed 1750fps, it's called the "Super Max Hyper Velocity." CCI makes a 32gr round that's similar called the "Stinger Hyper Velocity," reaching 1640fps. I believe both are right at 200ft.lb. of muzzle energy too, which is ridiculous for a .22LR!!

Aguila's 40gr "Interceptor" reaches 1470fps. The CCI 40gr Velocitor you linked is similar, reaching a claimed 1435fps. Both should be quite nice.

Btw, Aguila makes a 60gr .22LR round called the "Sniper." It's subsonic (950fps) and it looks kind of funny because the bullet is so long.


I take it you don't know about the rounds he was using though?

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Weak 9mm wrote:

Aguila makes a 30gr .22LR round that reaches a claimed 1750fps, it's called the "Super Max Hyper Velocity." CCI makes a 32gr round that's similar called the "Stinger Hyper Velocity," reaching 1640fps. I believe both are right at 200ft.lb. of muzzle energy too, which is ridiculous for a .22LR!!

Aguila's 40gr "Interceptor" reaches 1470fps. The CCI 40gr Velocitor you linked is similar, reaching a claimed 1435fps. Both should be quite nice.

Btw, Aguila makes a 60gr .22LR round called the "Sniper." It's subsonic (950fps) and it looks kind of funny because the bullet is so long.


I take it you don't know about the rounds he was using though?

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Correct.

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9mm: "CAN'T QUITE MAKE MAJOR! ALMOST THERE! UUUHHHH!!! [BOOM!]"



We better get another caliber!

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I read somewhere that it was the Glock he mainly used, however since I haven't seen anyone post of authentic autopsy reports at my favorite gorehound forum ( someone WOULD at that board IF they were available), I have no way of substantiating anything about this. A few years ago I did get a link off there to partial autopsy reports of some Columbine victims, as well as the 2 perpetrators.



There werethose pics Cho had sent to NBC ( or maybe they were video stills NBC did), one was of hollowpoints set upright in a couple orderly rows. But what brand, don't know.

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9mm is a faster bullet, but less mass so therefore less energy transfer. It still does the job. a .45 has more mass, more energy transfer and basically makes more mess of what it hits. again, does the job.
recoil is same'ish, 9mm guns can usually cram more rounds per pound.

I carry a Glock 17 9mm with 15 rounds (takes 17 but I just canna get the other 2 in there easy). I can shoot well to make my rounds count. If I had to go to the worst place on the planet I may take a hi-cap .45 of some type.

jokes about 9mm are about as old as the cartridge itself, about 100 years of it.

basically it comes down to the job, firepower or stopping power. if you are needing to engauge multiple targets, then 9mm may be better as you can do controlled groups a little easier and you have the capacity (generally more than .45).

if you are going up against mostly single targets or lots of mean targets, then .45 may be better, drops them harder.

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I think its a paucity of stopping power. Historically, bad guys have survived many hits from 9mm long enuf to inflict fatal injuries upon the good guy.

David

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This is correct. Although usually a few hits from a 9mm is fatal. It's also not instant. The generaly objective to the remove the threat, preferably ASAP.
It's also the general argument of 5.56 v 6.8spc v 7.62x39 etc

OmSigDAVID wrote:

I think its a paucity of stopping power. Historically, bad guys have survived many hits from 9mm long enuf to inflict fatal injuries upon the good guy.

David

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I own a 1940 9mm Luger P-'08, which I love, as an artifact of history. It functions properly.

We can all agree on the vital importance of shot placement.

However, with all respect to everyone, and not meaning to hurt anyone's feelings, we are well advised not to take a knife to a gun fight, and maybe taking a larger caliber gun withbig, slow hollowpointed slugs will keep u alive longer. I have .44 special or .45 long Colt in mind for stopping power. Of course, .45 ACP will do the job.

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OmSigDAVID wrote:

I think its a paucity of stopping power. Historically, bad guys have survived many hits from 9mm long enuf to inflict fatal injuries upon the good guy.

David

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They don't survive if you know how to shoot. Work on those shooting skills. Head shot. Stops them faster than the chest.

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The poll forgot:

G. Whatever you are carrying at the time.
H. No weapon...Game Over. :banghead:

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apcci2 wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:

I think its a paucity of stopping power. Historically, bad guys have survived many hits from 9mm long enuf to inflict fatal injuries upon the good guy.

David

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They don't survive if you know how to shoot. Work on those shooting skills. Head shot. Stops them faster than the chest.

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I disagree. In a life or death / struggle situation, your adrenaline is going to be racing into your blood stream, your heart is going to be beating out of your chest, and aiming at the head of a potentially quickly moving target is not going to be your highest probability shot (esspecially if it is a public place where missing may mean hurting someone else).

Put them in their chest, center mass, and keep putting them there until they are on the ground.

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apcci2 wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:

I think its a paucity of stopping power. Historically, bad guys have survived many hits from 9mm long enuf to inflict fatal injuries upon the good guy.

David

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They don't survive if you know how to shoot. Work on those shooting skills. Head shot. Stops them faster than the chest.

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In the 1960s, we had some police chase a derelict into an alley. He turned around and charged at one of them with a broken bottle. The officer emptied out the 6 rounds of his .38 revolver into the bum 's chest. Sure enuf, he perished from his wounds, but before he did he jammed the glassinto the officer's throat.

The officer failed to survive. The moral of the story is: its not enuf to kill the bum, u need to STOP him; u need to keep him off of u, ergo the need of BIG, slow slugs.

Aiming for a head shot is less likely to get a hit in a defensive situation. The target might be unco-operative, and your stray round might hit someone else, resulting in unnecessary criminal and/or civil litigation, with its attendant trial lawyers' fees. Aiming for the lower intestine might get his attention.


David