OmSigDAVID
Regular Member
imported post
David.Car wrote:
David.Car wrote:
What do think of aiming for the lower intestine ?
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
Why do people always make fun of the 9mm?
- Thread starter I_Hate_Illinois
- Start date
David.Car
Regular Member
imported post
OmSigDAVID wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
I am aiming at the largest area of my target. If ithappens to be his belly at the moment, fine, so be it. Most likely will always be aiming right at about their sternum.
exgabrit
Regular Member
imported post
Your bets bet with 9mm is two controlled groups to the chest, if the target doesn't go down right way, follow with two more shots, each pelvic bone. you'll at least stop them running. that is as per army field manual.
David.Car wrote:
Your bets bet with 9mm is two controlled groups to the chest, if the target doesn't go down right way, follow with two more shots, each pelvic bone. you'll at least stop them running. that is as per army field manual.
David.Car wrote:
Prometheus
Regular Member
imported post
Quite simply because they don't realize that .45acp is 11mm...
When looked at it in the view of 9mm, 10mm and 11mm the argument turns substantially weak and basically an excerise in metal masturbation.
It's silly honestly. Understand Newtons laws and decide for yourself.
Quite simply because they don't realize that .45acp is 11mm...
When looked at it in the view of 9mm, 10mm and 11mm the argument turns substantially weak and basically an excerise in metal masturbation.
It's silly honestly. Understand Newtons laws and decide for yourself.
imported post
The other thing is a story from the 60's about a .38 special has no relevance in proving that today's 9mm is insufficient.
How is 500ftlb of muzzle energy and expansion to .7" insufficient? It will put them down with good shot placement. The .45ACP isn't going to offer much more than that, although I am aware that it does offer more with certain rounds (Just not that much). No .38 special that I know of in the 60's was reaching anywhere near 500ftlb and .7" expansion.
I seriously doubt there's much difference when using good ammunition in 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP, all of them can fail to instantly stop. All of them can also instantly stop with a hit to the CNS. A hit to the heart with any of them using today's quality rounds will put the person down quickly, but that doesn't mean if they're inches from you that they can't stab you in the neck with glass in their last few seconds of consciousness.
Even a 1oz slug from a 12ga shotgun can fail to instantly incapacitate. I have a story right here about that. It spun the guy around and put him on the ground, but he continued to fire back with an AK-47 until a second slug went through his spine. A .45ACP is NOTHING like a 1oz slug out of a 12ga. People act like the .45ACP is a superbullet that will incapacitate someone by grazing their leg or something. I've posted this story a million times but it just seems to have so much to give, lol.
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/mossir_033007/index.html
The other thing is a story from the 60's about a .38 special has no relevance in proving that today's 9mm is insufficient.
How is 500ftlb of muzzle energy and expansion to .7" insufficient? It will put them down with good shot placement. The .45ACP isn't going to offer much more than that, although I am aware that it does offer more with certain rounds (Just not that much). No .38 special that I know of in the 60's was reaching anywhere near 500ftlb and .7" expansion.
I seriously doubt there's much difference when using good ammunition in 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP, all of them can fail to instantly stop. All of them can also instantly stop with a hit to the CNS. A hit to the heart with any of them using today's quality rounds will put the person down quickly, but that doesn't mean if they're inches from you that they can't stab you in the neck with glass in their last few seconds of consciousness.
Even a 1oz slug from a 12ga shotgun can fail to instantly incapacitate. I have a story right here about that. It spun the guy around and put him on the ground, but he continued to fire back with an AK-47 until a second slug went through his spine. A .45ACP is NOTHING like a 1oz slug out of a 12ga. People act like the .45ACP is a superbullet that will incapacitate someone by grazing their leg or something. I've posted this story a million times but it just seems to have so much to give, lol.
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/mossir_033007/index.html
deepdiver
Campaign Veteran
imported post
I was taught the same in every defensive handgun class I have taken - center of mass, pelvic girdle and if they are still moving but have slowed down enough and you are calm enough to make the shot, T-zone of the face.
I was taught the same in every defensive handgun class I have taken - center of mass, pelvic girdle and if they are still moving but have slowed down enough and you are calm enough to make the shot, T-zone of the face.
AZkopper
Regular Member
imported post
I worked for a smallish LA County ghetto agency in the early-mid 90's. We were issued Beretta 92F's out of the academy, and could not change guns until off probation (1 year later). I saw numerous BG's shot by 9mm's, and it took an insane amount of ammo for the 9mm to stop them. It was so bad that just about everyone switched to a 45acp as soon as they got off probation. We were shooting the then-called "Black Talon" ammo. I do not know ballistics, studies, etc, but what I do know is what I saw: The 9mm does not stop assailants immediately.
The 45, on the other hand, had good 1 and 2 shot stopping power.
Now, most self-preserving dirtbags will disengage if you start shooting at them. But for the seriously determined BG, its .45 for me.
Just my 1st hand experience.
BTW, I carry a Glock 21 or 30, as the mood hits me.
I worked for a smallish LA County ghetto agency in the early-mid 90's. We were issued Beretta 92F's out of the academy, and could not change guns until off probation (1 year later). I saw numerous BG's shot by 9mm's, and it took an insane amount of ammo for the 9mm to stop them. It was so bad that just about everyone switched to a 45acp as soon as they got off probation. We were shooting the then-called "Black Talon" ammo. I do not know ballistics, studies, etc, but what I do know is what I saw: The 9mm does not stop assailants immediately.
The 45, on the other hand, had good 1 and 2 shot stopping power.
Now, most self-preserving dirtbags will disengage if you start shooting at them. But for the seriously determined BG, its .45 for me.
Just my 1st hand experience.
BTW, I carry a Glock 21 or 30, as the mood hits me.
OmSigDAVID
Regular Member
imported post
deepdiver wrote:
Ideally, put the round under the target 's nose, for a quick end to the threat.
Touch the medula oblongata.
deepdiver wrote:
Ideally, put the round under the target 's nose, for a quick end to the threat.
Touch the medula oblongata.
OmSigDAVID
Regular Member
imported post
AZkopper wrote:
How did u choose Glock ?
David
AZkopper wrote:
How did u choose Glock ?
David
OmSigDAVID
Regular Member
imported post
Weak 9mm wrote:
Your story about the 1 ounce slug from the shotgun is very impressive. Thanks for it.
I expect that slug, or a hollowpointed.44 or .45 slug to break a charge; when the bum, to whose final charge I earlier referred, was running to jam his glassinto the police officer 's throat, the officer needed to break that charge. His life depended on it. His .38 was incompetent to accomplish that purpose with 6 chest wounds, resulting in the death of the officer on the other end of the .38; Q.E.D.: he needed more defensive fire power. I 'm thinking hollowpointed.44 specialor .45 Long Colt or ACP.
I don 't like to show my ignorance, but candor moves me to admit thatbefore your post, I did not know that 9mm expands to .70 caliber; that 's impressive. Is this known from autopsies ? from gelatin ? source of information ? Is there some specificbrand of 9mm ammunition that yields this result ?
Sadly, I have been made aware of District Attorneys criminally prosecuting good guys for shooting bad guys too many times with 9mm in a defensive situation (pharmacist defending from armedrobbery in his store) because the bad guy remained vertical until after defender empties out his 15 round magazine. Even if u WIN the case, trial lawyers can be very, very expensive.
Weak 9mm wrote:
Your story about the 1 ounce slug from the shotgun is very impressive. Thanks for it.
I expect that slug, or a hollowpointed.44 or .45 slug to break a charge; when the bum, to whose final charge I earlier referred, was running to jam his glassinto the police officer 's throat, the officer needed to break that charge. His life depended on it. His .38 was incompetent to accomplish that purpose with 6 chest wounds, resulting in the death of the officer on the other end of the .38; Q.E.D.: he needed more defensive fire power. I 'm thinking hollowpointed.44 specialor .45 Long Colt or ACP.
I don 't like to show my ignorance, but candor moves me to admit thatbefore your post, I did not know that 9mm expands to .70 caliber; that 's impressive. Is this known from autopsies ? from gelatin ? source of information ? Is there some specificbrand of 9mm ammunition that yields this result ?
Sadly, I have been made aware of District Attorneys criminally prosecuting good guys for shooting bad guys too many times with 9mm in a defensive situation (pharmacist defending from armedrobbery in his store) because the bad guy remained vertical until after defender empties out his 15 round magazine. Even if u WIN the case, trial lawyers can be very, very expensive.
Dahwg
Regular Member
imported post
Bottom line is any handgun round will leave you wanting for "stopping power" there is no such thing as a wonder bullet that will do it all. The difference between 9, .40 .45 is negligible when using modern premium defensive ammo it'sjust becomea pissing contest. Though I prefer 9 or .45 from a controllability standpoint (I don't think the very minuscule advantage of the .40 is worth the added "snappiness" of the round- especially as has been said here, it's all about placement). and 9 offers higher capacity.
Bottom line is any handgun round will leave you wanting for "stopping power" there is no such thing as a wonder bullet that will do it all. The difference between 9, .40 .45 is negligible when using modern premium defensive ammo it'sjust becomea pissing contest. Though I prefer 9 or .45 from a controllability standpoint (I don't think the very minuscule advantage of the .40 is worth the added "snappiness" of the round- especially as has been said here, it's all about placement). and 9 offers higher capacity.
David.Car
Regular Member
imported post
Dahwg wrote:
Dahwg wrote:
Exactly. I just feel more comfortable knowing I have 19 rounds of 124 +p speer dot at my disposal without a reload.
AZkopper
Regular Member
imported post
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Back then, I switched to a SW 4506. I'm a lefty, and I wanted an ambidexterous safety. I also wanted the cheapest way to get that. SW 4506 was my choice.Since then, I've carried a para-ordinance 45LDA (more bang per mag = good), and later a Glock 21 for duty. This is all over the course of a 14 year career with 3 different agencies. All three guns were good, in my opinion, and my choices were based around what I was "allowed" to carry at work and what actually felt good in my hand.
I now carry the glock because 1.) the gen 2 grips fits my gripa lot better than the earlier gens did; 2.) I shoot remarkably well with the glock;and3.) I find it a good, reliable gun.
Off duty I switch between the 21 and 30 (the 30 is my backup weapon at work).
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Back then, I switched to a SW 4506. I'm a lefty, and I wanted an ambidexterous safety. I also wanted the cheapest way to get that. SW 4506 was my choice.Since then, I've carried a para-ordinance 45LDA (more bang per mag = good), and later a Glock 21 for duty. This is all over the course of a 14 year career with 3 different agencies. All three guns were good, in my opinion, and my choices were based around what I was "allowed" to carry at work and what actually felt good in my hand.
I now carry the glock because 1.) the gen 2 grips fits my gripa lot better than the earlier gens did; 2.) I shoot remarkably well with the glock;and3.) I find it a good, reliable gun.
Off duty I switch between the 21 and 30 (the 30 is my backup weapon at work).
Alwayspacking
Campaign Veteran
imported post
All rounds will get the job don’t when they hit the vital organs in the body. The smaller caliper rounds just have a better chance of not reaching the vitals over a high powered round.
With the diameter of the .45ACP as it mushrooms it has a better chance at least snipping a vital even as the round looses it's volume as it travels in the body hitting bone and anything else a BG may have in him.
All rounds will get the job don’t when they hit the vital organs in the body. The smaller caliper rounds just have a better chance of not reaching the vitals over a high powered round.
With the diameter of the .45ACP as it mushrooms it has a better chance at least snipping a vital even as the round looses it's volume as it travels in the body hitting bone and anything else a BG may have in him.
OmSigDAVID
Regular Member
imported post
Dahwg wrote:
Dahwg wrote:
The USE of that higher capacity (i.e., shooting the bad guy too many times, in the opinion of the D.A., has been criminally prosecuted. I don 't know the results of such prosecutions.
OmSigDAVID
Regular Member
imported post
David.Car wrote:
I 've had too much jamming with automatics; thay are known for jamming.
(I already know about the stiff wrist.)
Revolvers are moremechanically reliable. I like hollowpointed.44 special for stopping power, with hope of avoiding overpenetration.
David
David.Car wrote:
I 've had too much jamming with automatics; thay are known for jamming.
(I already know about the stiff wrist.)
Revolvers are moremechanically reliable. I like hollowpointed.44 special for stopping power, with hope of avoiding overpenetration.
David
Jack Hollowpoint
New member
imported post
Pick any of the standard defensive handgun calibers and I'll give you a strong, well thought out, persuasive, logical, iron-clad argument why it's a prime choice for defensive carry.
-- And in the next paragraph, I will explain to you, with equal eloquence, why any other defensive handgun caliber is a better choice.
They all come with advantages and down sides, just like spouses and cell-phone calling plans.
:banghead:
Pick any of the standard defensive handgun calibers and I'll give you a strong, well thought out, persuasive, logical, iron-clad argument why it's a prime choice for defensive carry.
-- And in the next paragraph, I will explain to you, with equal eloquence, why any other defensive handgun caliber is a better choice.
They all come with advantages and down sides, just like spouses and cell-phone calling plans.
:banghead:
AbNo
Regular Member
imported post
Hurray for fan-boyism?
Hurray for fan-boyism?
OmSigDAVID
Regular Member
imported post
SCOTUS 07-290 wrote:
OK.
Here goes:
.44 special (ideally with hollowpointed rounds).
Do your thing !
SCOTUS 07-290 wrote:
OK.
Here goes:
.44 special (ideally with hollowpointed rounds).
Do your thing !
Dahwg
Regular Member
imported post
OmSigDAVID wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Possibly, but the higher capacity sure would come in handy when you realized you're dealing with more than one BG. Face it when you're severly outnumberd, you're not necessarily going to make it out alive, but I prefer to have more things that go bang. Also, it's well documented that you're only half as accurate under stress. Not that I want to miss, but the more bangy things I have the better.