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Thread: Grand Rapids Area Malls, And The Grandville Police Chief

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    http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/in...740.xml&coll=6
    Shopping checklist: Cash, coupons ... gun?
    Thursday, December 13, 2007
    By Shandra Martinez
    The Grand Rapids Press

    GRAND RAPIDS -- When Doug VanderWoude does his Christmas shopping, he's packing more than money. Not far from his wallet is his gun.

    It is his way of protecting himself and others from the kind of violence that happened in an Omaha mall last week, when a gunman opened fire on employees and shoppers. The 19-year-old man killed eight people before turning the gun on himself.

    "The way I look at a firearm, it's my safety device. I wear a safety belt when I drive because you never know if an accident will happen. I wear a gun in case a crime happens," said VanderWoude, 42, co-owner of a Wyoming gun shop.

    Last week's tragedy prompted Michigan native Ted Nugent -- known as much for his gun-rights stance as his rock music -- to write an essay that appeared in a Detroit paper this week. He called on the government to get rid of "gun-free zones" and for law-abiding citizens to "get a gun, learn to use it and to do the right thing."

    Closer to home, the incident has prompted a similar reaction.

    The mall shooting galvanized Thomas Antor, a Sparta resident and former police officer, who says he plans to obtain a concealed weapons permit and take his gun when he shops.

    "I've grown older. I see more of a need. This world is becoming more dangerous. I don't want to be a victim," said Antor, whose letter to The Press' Public Pulse appeared Tuesday.

    VanderWoude has been taking his .45 or 38 special with him shopping since July 2001, when a state law took effect making it easier to get a concealed weapons permit. He and his employees at the Silver Bullet Firearms Indoor Range & Training Center, 5121 S. Division Ave., wear their guns at work.

    There now are 4,500 people in Kent County with permits to carry concealed weapons and 2,400 in Ottawa County, according to state records.

    Permit-holders are banned from carrying their concealed weapons into certain public areas, including schools, day care centers, churches, hospitals, casinos, colleges, sports arenas and stadiums, and bars where liquor sales are the primary source of income.

    But access to malls and stores depends on the policy of individual operators.

    For example, Woodland Mall in Kentwood and Centerpointe Mall in Grand Rapids prohibit weapons except for those carried by law enforcement or authorized security. Mall security guards don't carry guns, either.

    "We are a shopping environment and want people to feel comfortable, and we don't think that makes people feel comfortable to see people with weapons," said Cheryl Dougherty, vice president of marketing for Woodland Mall's parent company, Pennsylvania Retail Estate Investment Trust.

    "We are staffed with rigorously-trained security teams and work with law enforcement. Our malls have advanced security camera systems in place. Our highest priority is to provide our shoppers and mall employees with a safe shopping environment."

    RiverTown Crossings in Grandville doesn't ban permit holders from carrying their weapons, but if a gun is spotted, the person will be asked to leave the premises.

    "Typically, we involve the police at this point," said Randy Zimmerman, general manager of the area's largest mall.

    Grandville Police Chief Vern Snyder said weapons carried by shoppers with permits haven't been an issue at the mall.

    "As soon as (the gun) becomes visible, then we end up with the public being concerned, and technically we may have a violation of the law," Snyder said, "because the law doesn't allow people to display weapons where they are creating panic."


    Snyder declined to say how he feels about people with permits carrying guns into the mall.

    Rivertown Crossings is owned by General Growth Properties Inc., which owns more than 200 malls nationwide, including the Westroads Mall in Omaha, the location of last week's shooting.

    While its security personnel aren't armed, the company does hire armed off-duty police for some locations, or has police substations in some spots.

    "As far as security, it's the No. 1 priority in our minds, not just when a tragedy happens like in Omaha," said David Keating, director of corporate communication for the Chicago-based company.

    Zimmerman says that while he works closely with Grandville police, no armed off-duty officers are employed as part of mall's security.

    He can remember only one time in which a weapon was an issue at RiverTown Crossings. A woman, who was a personal security guard, was trying on clothes at the Marshall Field's store -- now Macy's -- to make sure they concealed her weapon.

    "She actually apologized for the incident," said Zimmerman, adding the police weren't called.

    Send e-mail to the author: smartinez@grpress.com

    Letters to the Editor:
    http://www.mlive.com/contactus/
    Emphasis mine.

    Seems the Grandville Police Chief is implying that they can charge people who accidentally flash while CC'ing.

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    All i can say to the police chief is that before he starts making statements to press about this or that is a violation of the law, he may want to open up the law book and do a little ready before he puts his foot in it.

    Ps maybe the mall in grandville would be a nice place to drop off some informational letters, and to the law enforcement agency both ? any opions yes no?
    Or a place to have a meeting?

    I personally don't talk to the press that way i don't have to pull my foot back out!

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    I believe he is refering to a "disturbing the peace" violation. Likewise, "brandishing" has never been tested either IIRC. While I realize that there is an AG opinion on the topic that should clearly cover it, that doesn't necessarily mean that the local units of government have to comply with the AG opinion. Correct me if I am wrong.

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    I attempted to contact the chief at the station but he will be out till Monday, wanted to hear his take:what: on the above blog, then was going to put his comments on here.

    We all know that what a person says, and what another person prints can be another thing, i have a hard time believing that a chief and officer of 40 plus years would say that above statement.

    So i called the station to confirm or deny if the chief would comment on it, even thou in the long run, it is just one persons opinion on things even thou his opinions are sent down the chain of command to all of the other officers

    I am hoping he will cotact me so we can talk, if he does i will post the outcome of the call for all


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    Looking forward to hearing that outcome mastiff.

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    Grandville Police Chief Snyder E-mail is snyder@cityofgrandville.com will not be back til Monday 12/17/07

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    ghostrider wrote:
    I believe he is refering to a "disturbing the peace" violation. Likewise, "brandishing" has never been tested either IIRC. While I realize that there is an AG opinion on the topic that should clearly cover it, that doesn't necessarily mean that the local units of government have to comply with the AG opinion. Correct me if I am wrong.

    In a way it has been tested. A 1990 law, and MCRGO V Ferndale both came to the conclusion that local units of government cannot regulate firearms possession and ownership beyond what the state laws already cover. So, in essence, any charges of DTP for merely OCing wouldn't stand up in court. Might have to appeal it after a loss in a city court, but it wouldn't stand up.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Any news on this front?
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    It is 540 pm have had NO calls from the chief, i guess i will have to E-MAIL him for a response:shock:.

    He must have had a busy day today:?, thats why he didn't call

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    Well no call from the chief tonight i guess he didn't get my e-mail yesterday or my call so there you go, until i hear from him i will assume the blog was right on the mark as to his thoughts on our rights and the law as it is written, by our fathers of the republic of the United States of America

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    Not about the Chief, but I just came from the Woodland Mall, and JC Penny had no sign up prohibiting anything. Just posted hours, a greeting, and advertisements.

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    So i going to assume that they did have signs up before? are and now the signs at Penny's aregone?

    Are there any signs at any of the stores at woodland mall?

    So do you have any idea what caused the change of heart?

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    ghostrider wrote:
    "We are staffed with rigorously-trained security teams and work with law enforcement. Our malls have advanced security camera systems in place. Our highest priority is to provide our shoppers and mall employees with a safe shopping environment."
    Now, this might be an old argument, but it appears to me that this statement suggests that if a violent crime occurred, the unarmed security guard would "contact" law enforcement and they would have a video recording of the crime.

    None of this suggests to me that they have reasonable plan in place toPREVENT a violent crime. Only a plan to react AFTER the fact.

    When seconds count, the Police are only minutes away.

    This backward thinking is not going to end until somebody takes one of these Mall owners to civil court and proves that by their actions preventing law abiding citizens from exercising their right to self-defence, that they fostered an environment of liability on their part. IMHO

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    mastiff69 wrote:
    So i going to assume that they did have signs up before? are and now the signs at Penny's aregone?

    Are there any signs at any of the stores at woodland mall?

    So do you have any idea what caused the change of heart?
    TBH, I don't usually go to the mall. I don't know if were signs up previously, or if they are at other intrances. I just walked into the store about 20 ft. to the CS desk and paid for my item, then promptly left.

    From the way the article was written, it almost sounded like the author was infering that signs were up, but I really can't be certain.

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    http://www.wacotrib.com/opin/content...ac_nugent.html

    Ted Nugent: Gun-free slaughter zones
    Good guys ought to be armed

    By Ted Nugent, Texas Wildman
    Sunday, December 09, 2007

    Here we go again. Someone tell me why, with nearly 3,000 articles written worldwide within 48 hours following the tragic slaughter at Omaha's Westroads Mall last week, not a single one of them mentioned the most important fact.
    Ted Nugent

    Thousands of "professional" journalists converged on the event, sharing their sleuthing in the world's most respected publications and electronic media. Yet not one of them saw it meaningful "reporting" on the crime to mention all the "no guns allowed" signs throughout the mall?
    Got agenda? Sig heil!
    Even though Nebraska recently got a small piece of the Second Amendment back by finally allowing law-abiding citizens their God-given right to keep and bear arms, it is truly anti-American and downright bizzarro that private property and business owners can deny (as in "infringe") this "inalienable" right bestowed upon free men by our Creator.
    This of, course, is the liberal dream known as "gun-free zones" — as in Columbine, Virginia Tech, Luby's in Killeen and at every other location where unarmed victims have been slaughtered.
    An exception is the Salt Lake City mall last year where an armed off-duty cop properly defied that mall's "gun-free" policy. Virtually indistinguishable from an armed law-abiding citizen, he thwarted a mass shooting about to unfold. Yes, a good guy with a gun.
    How dense must someone be to hide from this reality? Denial runs deep in a growing population of "we the sheeple." For shame.
    Running away
    When did a nation of rugged individuals turn into helpless whiners, crying and running in fear from danger and evil?
    When did we abandon our natural instinct to counterpunch and attack evil, overpowering it and neutralizing it into submission?
    When were we forced to dial 9-1-1, losing and wasting precious, decisive time, instead of doing the right thing and stopping bad guys ourselves?
    When did we trade in independence for dependency? When did we decide that we can't handle tough situations ourselves, but instead must call Big Brother while we cower and hide like little, helpless children? Pathetic.
    Every day in this country, according to the Department of Justice and every study ever conducted, armed, law-abiding citizens stop dangerous, violent confrontations from escalating into death and tragedy, simply by having a gun handy to provide real "equality" on the mean streets of America.
    Dedicated cops across America will be the first ones to tell you that they not only can't possibly be there to protect us, but that they also have no legal requirement to do so.
    By the time the police show up, many innocents perish at the hands of evil while good people hang around hoping and praying.
    Does anyone still not know this reality? Is it possible to still hide from this life-and-death truth? If you have no soul, apparently so.
    I highly recommend that we finally learn from all these senseless tragedies. Get real. Get rid of politicians who support gun-free slaughter zones. Get rid of gun-free zones. Get a gun. Learn to use it, and do the right thing.
    Bad guys should be shot dead, not Christmas shoppers. :celebrate

    Ted Nugent is a Waco-based musician and television show host. Communicate directly with Ted at tednugent.com.



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    I agree with Ted, he lives about 25 miles from me, have met him at a couple of the different meetings. Is one of the good guys, have been to his bow shop in the past, nice shop. It's been 10 + yrs man time is flying by

    He had a show on in the past that was different where the contestents had to compete in nature themes, was different.

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    I visited Rivertown Crossings in Grandville yesterday (Sat.). I did not see any signs near the 2 entrances I was at. I entered thru the main entrance on the first floor. Also checked the entrance in JC Penny's.

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