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Thread: Question about carrying open around a "school" function.

  1. #1
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Here's something that has been bothering me for sometime and I just can't seem to come up with an answer.

    Suppose you are having a casual lunch while reading a book or magazine in a local fast food establishment, and suddenly a school bus pulls up with perhaps 25-30 grade school kids on a field trip and heading in for a bite to eat. Now unbeknownst to you, the teacher had made prior arrangements with the manager for this little treat.

    Now you are surrounded by grade school children on a school sponsored trip, and you are carrying a firearm out in the open for all to see. What do you do? Is this establishment suddenly transformed into an extension of the school for the period of time that this class is occupying the premises? Do you have to immediately leave since you are now well within 1000 feet of a "school function"? Or do you just continue with your lunch and leave when you're good and ready?

    Also, what about taking a walk in your neighborhood which just so happens to be like many neighborhoods where there is a school just a short distance up the street? Can you go armed? How much leeway is there in this nonsensical 1000 foot rule?

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    § 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

    B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another.

    C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm.

  3. #3
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    § 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

    B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another.

    C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm.
    Thanks for the code sections and I have seen a good part of this before. But it still doesn't satisfy my questions unless I read this very literally.

    For example, all of the above is moot for the simple reason of this statement; "the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material". Anyone who knows anything about firearms, knows that the "combustible material" used to propel a projectile does not explode.. it burns. However, we also know that this little "oversight" is not going to sell to an LEO or a court of law.

    But there is another part of the code that may very well answer my questions. In article 'A', the following is stated;

    "It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured."

    If I was just taking a walk past a school in session (let's say across the street from the school), clearly by this statement, I am not in any sort of violation of the law since I am not holding or pointing or brandishing my weapon.. it would be residing in my holster. So that seems to satisfy the legality of taking a walk while armed past a school.

    Now for the other question.. the one about eating lunch and in walks a grade school class. Am I ok to continue to stay? Based upon the codes you posted, it looks like I am ok to finish at my leisure.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    According to the code.... You can walk by the school property while armed if you do not brandish the weapon.

    If you are not on school property and a class comes in to eat lunch while you are armed... you can stay. Your now simply out in public.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I think you really wanted this, as it directly addresses your situation:


    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

    A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of § 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon (a) the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place;or (c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. [emphasis added]

    B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony; however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence. [emphasis added]

    The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.

    As used in this section:

    "Stun weapon" means any device that emits a momentary or pulsed output, which is electrical, audible, optical or electromagnetic in nature and which is designed to temporarily incapacitate a person.

    (1979, c. 467; 1988, c. 493; 1990, cc. 635, 744; 1991, c. 579; 1992, cc. 727, 735; 1995, c. 511; 1999, cc. 587, 829, 846; 2001, c. 403; 2003, cc. 619, 976; 2004, cc. 128, 461; 2005, cc. 830, 928; 2007, c. 519.)

    Note to LEO229: you need to cite the correct section of the Code of Virginia. Maybe what is needed is a new code section, based on the onecreated for the IRS, making LEOs responsible if because they cite the wrong section of the code, a person runs afoul of the law. (Just kidding, LEO229. You know we all love you - especially when you fall flat on your face.)

    Note to SouthernBoy: The Gun Free School Zone Act was ruled unconstitutional - there is no 1,000-foot buffer zone around schools any more. IANAL & all that, but as I understand it you can walk on the sidewalk if one exists, or you must walk on the roadway if no sidewalk exists. I was once told to recall where the state/county stops plowing snow - that is the "safe line" between school property & not-school property. (Obviously you should not go walking up any driveways or footpaths that lead to the school or its parking lots.)

    stay safe.

    skidmark

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    According to the code.... You can walk by the school property while armed if you do not brandish the weapon.

    If you are not on school property and a class comes in to eat lunch while you are armed... you can stay. Your now simply out in public.
    Thanks much for the getback. I had thought that was the case in the question about the fast food place, but still wasn't quite so sure about walking past a school while armed.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    skidmark wrote:
    I think you really wanted this, as it directly addresses your situation:


    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

    A. .....

    B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony; however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence. [emphasis added]

    ....


    Note to LEO229: you need to cite the correct section of the Code of Virginia. Maybe what is needed is a new code section, based on the onecreated for the IRS, making LEOs responsible if because they cite the wrong section of the code, a person runs afoul of the law. (Just kidding, LEO229. You know we all love you - especially when you fall flat on your face.)

    Note to SouthernBoy: The Gun Free School Zone Act was ruled unconstitutional - there is no 1,000-foot buffer zone around schools any more. IANAL & all that, but as I understand it you can walk on the sidewalk if one exists, or you must walk on the roadway if no sidewalk exists. I was once told to recall where the state/county stops plowing snow - that is the "safe line" between school property & not-school property. (Obviously you should not go walking up any driveways or footpaths that lead to the school or its parking lots.)

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    I posted the code that spoke directly about "1000 feet" as he was asking about. Your section failed to contain that. My code section was actually valid and your code... was not. So now I will stand aside while you either fall on your face or eat crow.I say.... Eat up!

    The code section you offered clearly states "exclusively used for school..." so I do not think a class full of kids going to McDonalds will count. They are talking about playing fields and things of that nature.

    The code I posted is current fromthe State of Virginia. The brandishing within 1000' of a school is valid.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I posted the code that spoke directly about "1000 feet" as he was asking about. Your section failed to contain that. My code section was actually valid and your code... was not. So now I will stand aside while you either fall on your face or eat crow.I say.... Eat up!

    The code section you offered clearly states "exclusively used for school..." so I do not think a class full of kids going to McDonalds will count. They are talking about playing fields and things of that nature.

    The code I posted is current fromthe State of Virginia. The brandishing within 1000' of a school is valid.
    Ye gods and little fishes, man. Your ego sure is touchy.

    The OP asked what the rules were if he was in a public place and a school class showed up. He wondered if there was some 1000-foot exclusionary rule he had to obey. You, a self-proclaimed law enforcement officer, cited a secion of the Code of Virginia that had nothing to do with his situation. I will not debate the "The code I posted is current fromthe State of Virginia" as it was never suggested that your citation was not current.

    As you so well point out, the section of code I highlighted states that the exclusion applies ONLY IF the facility is "then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place" That responds directly to the question posed by the OP. Contrast with your response, which is tangental at best, and will, if relied on, provide the OIP with no information regarding his scenario.

    This raises a question regarding both this specific post and many other responses from you. That question is: Are you intentionally providing misleading and off-point information?

    Remaining upright, and fondly recalling the many times I have sauted or grilled breast of crow - but NOT on this occassion, I bid you,

    stay safe.

    skidmark

    PS - Thank you for the entertainment. I do so enjoy watching you come up with the correct answer to a question that was never asked, but never responding directly to the topic at hand.
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    Do you like your crow baked or fried?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Do you like your crow baked or fried?
    Please see my previous post, where I state my preferences in plain, straight-forward English words.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    skidmark wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Do you like your crow baked or fried?
    Please see my previous post, where I state my preferences in plain, straight-forward English words.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    OK Enjoy!!





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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    "If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material"

    Gentlemen, I have to wonder if this statement has ever been tested in court. This is the state's basic definition of a firearm and as such, gives us complete freedom to carry our sidearms or long arms onto school property even when in sesson for the simple fact that projectiles are not expelled in the manner described. The "combustible material" in a firearm burns.. it does not explode.

    Some (many) years ago, there was a case in England where a criminal defendant was being tried for raping and murdering a woman. The evidence was overwhelming and it was quite obvious that the man was guilty as sin. He, in fact, did rape and murder his victim. But then his attorney discovered something interesting in the criminal code. It seems the offender could be found guilty and receive the ultimate penalty for "murder and dismemberment". Finding this, the attorney argued and was successful in getting his client aquitted.

    Does anyone see what happened here?

    Yes, his client did rape and murder his victim, but he did not dismember her. The phrase above is missing a comma just after the word "murder" in the "murder and dismemberment" part of the sentence. This means in order for him to be guilty, he must both murder AND dismember his victim, not OR for either. These two items are mutually inclusive and therefore must both be done in order for the statement to be true. So for wont of a comma, a criminal was set free.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Nice idea.. but not correct...


    combustible material - a substance that can be burned to provide heat or power

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/combustible+material


    Do you hear a "bang" sound after shooting a gun? That is the explosion.



    ex·plo·sion

    n.
    1.
    a. A release of mechanical, chemical, or nuclear energy in a sudden and often violent manner with the generation of high temperature and usually with the release of gases.
    b. A violent bursting as a result of internal pressure.
    c. The loud, sharp sound made as a result of either of these actions.
    2. A sudden, often vehement outburst: an explosion of rage.
    3. A sudden, great increase: a population explosion; the explosion of illegal drug use.
    4. Linguistics See
    plosion.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    "If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material"

    Gentlemen, I have to wonder if this statement has ever been tested in court. This is the state's basic definition of a firearm and as such, gives us complete freedom to carry our sidearms or long arms onto school property even when in sesson for the simple fact that projectiles are not expelled in the manner described. The "combustible material" in a firearm burns.. it does not explode
    Yes, the statement has been tested in court.

    The pressure of expanding gasses produced from the controlled rapid burning of black powder or modern smokeless powder, which concommitantly produces a sonicwave as the projectile leaves the muzzle of the firearm, as been accepted by the courts as "an exlposion of a combustible material."

    Until you can get the US Supreme Court to accept some other definition, this will stand even though it does not meet the scientific definition of an explosion, let alone the dictionary definition.

    Sorry to be lecturing, but case law is how statutes are interpreted. Thus, the law is not always the law as written, but the law as how some judge or jury has decided to interpret what was written.

    stay safe.

    skidmark*

    edited to fix an accuracy issue.

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    skidmark wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    "If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material"

    Gentlemen, I have to wonder if this statement has ever been tested in court. This is the state's basic definition of a firearm and as such, gives us complete freedom to carry our sidearms or long arms onto school property even when in sesson for the simple fact that projectiles are not expelled in the manner described. The "combustible material" in a firearm burns.. it does not explode
    Yes, the statement has been tested in court.

    The pressure of expanding gasses produced from the controlled rapid burning of black powder or modern smokeless powder, which concommitantly produces a sonicwave as the projectile leaves the muzzle of the firearm, as been accepted by the courts as "an exlposion of a combustible material."

    Until you can get the US Supreme Court to accept some other definition, this will stand even though it does not meet the scientific definition of an explosion, let alone the dictionary definition.

    Sorry to be lecturing, but case law is how statutes are interpreted. Thus, the law is not always the law as written, but the law as how some judge or jury has decided to interpret what was written.

    stay safe.

    skidmark*

    edited to fix an accuracy issue.
    A very succinct and informative response.. thank you, sir.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    skidmark wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    "If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material"

    Gentlemen, I have to wonder if this statement has ever been tested in court. This is the state's basic definition of a firearm and as such, gives us complete freedom to carry our sidearms or long arms onto school property even when in sesson for the simple fact that projectiles are not expelled in the manner described. The "combustible material" in a firearm burns.. it does not explode
    Yes, the statement has been tested in court.

    The pressure of expanding gasses produced from the controlled rapid burning of black powder or modern smokeless powder, which concommitantly produces a sonicwave as the projectile leaves the muzzle of the firearm, as been accepted by the courts as "an exlposion of a combustible material."

    Until you can get the US Supreme Court to accept some other definition, this will stand even though it does not meet the scientific definition of an explosion, let alone the dictionary definition.

    Sorry to be lecturing, but case law is how statutes are interpreted. Thus, the law is not always the law as written, but the law as how some judge or jury has decided to interpret what was written.

    stay safe.

    skidmark*

    edited to fix an accuracy issue.
    Cite please...

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Nice idea.. but not correct...


    combustible material - a substance that can be burned to provide heat or power

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/combustible+material


    Do you hear a "bang" sound after shooting a gun? That is the explosion.



    ex·plo·sion

    n.
    1.
    a. A release of mechanical, chemical, or nuclear energy in a sudden and often violent manner with the generation of high temperature and usually with the release of gases.
    b. A violent bursting as a result of internal pressure.
    c. The loud, sharp sound made as a result of either of these actions.
    2. A sudden, often vehement outburst: an explosion of rage.
    3. A sudden, great increase: a population explosion; the explosion of illegal drug use.
    4. Linguistics See
    plosion.
    A "bang heard after shooting a gun" is the result of 2 things happening. One, the bullit going supersonic and two, the gasses going supersonic, both of which are breaking the sound barrier and creating a sonic boom (the "bang" that is heard). Ever shoot a .22 rifle using low velocity, subsonic rounds? I have. There is no "bang". It sounds like a pellet gun being fired. So the "bang" is not the sound of an "explosion" if it was you would hear it when firing a .22 with low velocity, subsonic rounds. Sokeless powder is a propellant, not an explosive, it burns at a specific rate, not all at once, creating the gasses that push the bullit out the barrel.
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    "If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material"

    Gentlemen, I have to wonder if this statement has ever been tested in court. This is the state's basic definition of a firearm and as such, gives us complete freedom to carry our sidearms or long arms onto school property even when in sesson for the simple fact that projectiles are not expelled in the manner described. The "combustible material" in a firearm burns.. it does not explode
    Yes, the statement has been tested in court.

    The pressure of expanding gasses produced from the controlled rapid burning of black powder or modern smokeless powder, which concommitantly produces a sonicwave as the projectile leaves the muzzle of the firearm, as been accepted by the courts as "an exlposion of a combustible material."

    Until you can get the US Supreme Court to accept some other definition, this will stand even though it does not meet the scientific definition of an explosion, let alone the dictionary definition.

    Sorry to be lecturing, but case law is how statutes are interpreted. Thus, the law is not always the law as written, but the law as how some judge or jury has decided to interpret what was written.

    stay safe.

    skidmark*

    edited to fix an accuracy issue.
    Cite please...
    Glad to provide it. See them all at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu...eme_cases.html

    In each case the court used or accepted without challenge the defininition of a firearm as quoted by the OP. Please do let me know if you find any error in this statement, and be sure to state exactly where you found the error.

    Also see: http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...7cfr447.11.htm

    beginning at page 90 where the term "firearm" is defined by the BATFE.

    Hope you are not disappointed with these citations.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  21. #21
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    skidmark wrote:
    Glad to provide it. See them all at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu...eme_cases.html

    In each case the court used or accepted without challenge the defininition of a firearm as quoted by the OP. Please do let me know if you find any error in this statement, and be sure to state exactly where you found the error.

    Also see: http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...7cfr447.11.htm

    beginning at page 90 where the term "firearm" is defined by the BATFE.

    Hope you are not disappointed with these citations.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Both links were worthless!

    Furthermore.... your second link CONFIRMS the term explosion when shooting a projectile..



    [Page 90]

    Firearms.

    A weapon, and all components and parts therefor, not over
    .50 caliber which will or is designed to or may be readily converted to
    expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, but shall not include
    BB and pellet guns, and muzzle loading (black powder) firearms
    (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or
    similar type of ignition system) or firearms covered by Category I(a)
    established to have been manufactured in or before 1898.



  22. #22
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    mobeewan wrote:
    A "bang heard after shooting a gun" is the result of 2 things happening. One, the bullit going supersonic and two, the gasses going supersonic, both of which are breaking the sound barrier and creating a sonic boom (the "bang" that is heard). Ever shoot a .22 rifle using low velocity, subsonic rounds? I have. There is no "bang". It sounds like a pellet gun being fired. So the "bang" is not the sound of an "explosion" if it was you would hear it when firing a .22 with low velocity, subsonic rounds. Sokeless powder is a propellant, not an explosive, it burns at a specific rate, not all at once, creating the gasses that push the bullit out the barrel.

    Yes... and the reason you even get that is because gases built up during the rapid burning of the gun powder that caused the explosion. The sound does not magically appear.



    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/propellent

    pro·pel·lant also pro·pel·lent



    1. Something, such as an explosive charge or a rocket fuel, that propels or provides thrust.

    2. A compressed inert gas, such as a fluorocarbon, that acts as a vehicle for discharging the contents of an aerosol container.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propellant

    Propellant

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A propellant is a material that is used to move an object by applying a motive force. This may or may not involve a chemical reaction. It may be a gas, liquid, plasma, or, before the chemical reaction, a solid. Common chemical propellants consist of a fuel, like gasoline, jet fuel and rocket fuel, and an oxidizer.

    Contents

    1 Aerosol sprays

    2 Solid propellant rockets and projectiles

    3 Liquid propellant rockets

    4 Sources and references

    5 See also



    Aerosol sprays

    In aerosol spray cans, the propellant is simply a pressurized vapour in equilibrium with its liquid. As some gas escapes to expel the payload, more liquid evaporates, maintaining an even pressure. (See aerosol spray propellant for more information.)

    Solid propellant rockets and projectiles

    In ballistics and pyrotechnics, a propellant is a generic name for explosives used for propelling projectiles from guns and other firearms, in order to distinguish them from the more violent explosives as used in shells and mines to produce a blasting effect. Some explosive substances can be used both as propellants and as bursters, as for example gunpowder, and some of the ingredients of a propellant may be similar, though differently proportioned and combined, to those of a " high explosive."

    A propellant burns very rapidly but controllably, to produce thrust by gas pressure and thus accelerate a projectile or rocket. In this sense, common or well known propellants include, for firearms, artillery and solid propellant rockets:

    Gun propellants, such as:

    Gunpowder (black powder)

    Nitrocellulose-based powders

    Cordite

    Smokeless powders

    Composite propellants made from a solid oxidizer such as ammonium perchlorate or ammonium nitrate, a rubber such as HTPB or PBAN, and usually a powdered metal fuel such as aluminum.

    Some amateur propellants use potassium nitrate, combined with sugar, epoxy, or other fuels / binder compounds.

    Potassium perchlorate has been used as an oxidizer, paired with asphalt, epoxy, and other binders.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosion

    Explosion

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    An explosion is a sudden increase in volume and release of energy in an extreme manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures and the release of gases.

    The most common artificial explosives are chemical explosives, usually involving a rapid and violent oxidation reaction that produces large amounts of hot gas. Gunpowder was the first explosive to be discovered and put to use.





    http://www.answers.com/topic/explosion?cat=biz-fin

    explosion



    A release of mechanical, chemical, or nuclear energy in a sudden and often violent manner with the generation of high temperature and usually with the release of gases.

    A violent bursting as a result of internal pressure.

    The loud, sharp sound made as a result of either of these actions.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Both links were worthless!
    Please explain why you believe this to be so.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  24. #24
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    OK.. Both links were not worthless.

    One was useless and the other link proved the opposite of your claim.


  25. #25
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    Glad to provide it. See them all at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu...eme_cases.html

    In each case the court used or accepted without challenge the defininition of a firearm as quoted by the OP. Please do let me know if you find any error in this statement, and be sure to state exactly where you found the error.

    Also see: http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...7cfr447.11.htm

    beginning at page 90 where the term "firearm" is defined by the BATFE.

    Hope you are not disappointed with these citations.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Both links were worthless!

    Furthermore.... your second link CONFIRMS the term explosion when shooting a projectile..



    [Page 90]

    Firearms.

    A weapon, and all components and parts therefor, not over
    .50 caliber which will or is designed to or may be readily converted to
    expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, but shall not include
    BB and pellet guns, and muzzle loading (black powder) firearms
    (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or
    similar type of ignition system)
    or firearms covered by Category I(a)
    established to have been manufactured in or before 1898.

    So I can carry a muzzleloader like the Ruger Old Army into a school?

    Dang I wish I hadn't sold mine!
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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