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Thread: The High Road - Are we taking it and should we be taking it?

  1. #1
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    I really like this board. It is the most informative place on the net regarding Washington State firearms law, it is enjoyable reading, and it is local. Reading these pages are gun lobbyists, firearms instructors, shootists, journalists, policeman, lawyers, doctors, laborers, programmers, salesman, in fact a fantasticly diverse audience here - all interested in Open Carry. Not only that, but it has been INSTRUMENTAL in promoting Open Carry in Washington state.

    However, I have seen the following disturbing trends in the last 3 months or so...

    1. Increase in personal attacks.
    2. Bullying.
    3. Open contempt and ridicule of police officers.

    This may:

    1. Hurt our cause (promoting peacable open carry in Washington State).
    2. Give gun owners in general a bad name.
    3. Drive away new visitors.
    4. Drive away active members.
    4. May make police agencies (they are reading this forum) view open carriers as troublemakers and hotheads.

    With that said, these are my personal thoughts regarding my observations. I would never say things such as these with out an idea to help resolve them. My first thought was to model one of the best, most civil, firearms forum on the net. The High Road - http://Thehighroad.org

    Here is their forum policy.

    http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html

    Please consider posting your thoughts on this thread. Thanks for reading.

  2. #2
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    These are about identical to our forum rules: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

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    Wynder wrote:
    These are about identical to our forum rules: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html
    Indeed they are very similar. Maybe I should refer to the High Road Mission instead.

    http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=297146

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    Regular Member Johnny Law's Avatar
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    Wynder wrote:
    These are about identical to our forum rules: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html
    Yeah, only without the trolling, flaming, pottymouthing, and personal attacks of any kind! And oh yes, throw in a healthy dose of respect, and common courtesy.

    I wonder how many here would agree to adopt Thehighroad.org's rules?
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    I think for the most part here people conduct themselves in a fair manner, but of course there are the times when we are passionate about our stance on a particular issue, and the line is crossed and attacks can become personal.

    However, a lot of the comments made are in gest, not everything said is made out to be a personal attack.

    Furthermore, the forum growing at a rapid pace, you are bound to get some "bad apples", trolls, etc.

    I would say close scrutiny of police officers is a more logical term, we have all had our good encounters, and we have all had our bad.

    Unfortunately, some of the comments I have made in the past could probably be taken as a personal attack even though they were not mean to be such, everyone will interpret comments differently, after all, text alone cannot convey vocal tone/afflection.

    Though some of us can cross the line from time to time, I think we all try to hold ourselves to a high standard, not only here, but when in public as well. I think the moderation is doing the best job it can and the sort of events you are referring to, while could and should be reduced, are more of the exception rather than the rule.

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    I just read the Highroad rules;

    "1.) All topics and posts must be related to firearms...... "

    I do like to poke a little fun especially when some people get too serious, but everything should have a basis in firearms or open carry issues.


    "2.) Multiple user registrations are prohibited. "

    I'm with that one 100%


    "3.) As a family-friendly board, we ask that you keep your language clean. If you wouldn't say it in front of your dear old Grandma, you probably don't want to say it here. "

    I'm with that one 100% (Of course my grandma is dead)


    "4.) Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer."

    I'm with that one 100%......well most of the time, as long as the attacks include a funny joke.


    "5.) We cannot provide a comprehensive list of "Things Not To Say"......"


    Nor should we ever.


    I am all for raising the maturity level of the forum as long as we don't lose our sense of humor, but I really don't care what our enemies think.


    Tarzan


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    "3.) As a family-friendly board, we ask that you keep your language clean. If you wouldn't say it in front of your dear old Grandma, you probably don't want to say it here. "


    You haven't met my Grandma...

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    wqbang wrote:

    This may:

    1. Hurt our cause (promoting peacable open carry in Washington State).
    "Our cause" is promoting open carry nationwide, not just Washington State.
    2. Give gun owners in general a bad name.
    Newsflash, in some circles this has already happened.
    3. Drive away new visitors.
    That will happen regardless. Some people will come here and leave no matter what the policy du jour is.
    4. Drive away active members.
    That will happen regardless. Some people will come here and leave no matter what the policy du jour is.
    5. May make police agencies (they are reading this forum) view open carriers as troublemakers and hotheads.
    They already do. You can't swing a dead mongoose without reading the acount of some lawful gunholder being harassed by "the man." We have people actively persuing legal recourse, have some people with multiple court cases over having an LEO lock them up on a questionable chagre. Your comment makes the asumption that police agencies presently view open carriers in a positive light. Predominately I can assure you such is not the case.

    With that said, these are my personal thoughts regarding my observations. I would never say things such as these with out an idea to help resolve them. My first thought was to model one of the best, most civil, firearms forum on the net. The High Road - http://Thehighroad.org
    I think you are quickly about to find that many here disagree with your personal thought and observations that "the high road" is one of the best, most civil firearm forums on the net.

    I've seen the message board you reference. I for one do not mirror your affection for it.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    I've read several of "the high road" threads and can promise you that without a doubt, many of the members there rarely ever take "the high road".....some of them would be lucky to identify "the high road" if it was the only road in front of them.

    I know, I know, somebody's gonna pull the "citation please" request. I cannot access thr from my work computer so I'll have to edit this message when I get home tonight. I'm not saying OCDO is perfect, I'm just saying that the rules are very similar regardless of the forum and the ultimate end results are also very similar.

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    bayboy42 wrote:
    I've read several of "the high road" threads and can promise you that without a doubt, many of the members there rarely ever take "the high road".....some of them would be lucky to identify "the high road" if it was the only road in front of them.
    +1

    They also exibit the opposite in response to an OC discussion.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    ChinChin wrote:
    I think you are quickly about to find that many here disagree with your personal thought and observations that "the high road" is one of the best, most civil firearm forums on the net.

    I've seen the message board you reference. I for one do not mirror your affection for it.
    +1

    And, imho all forums have positive and negative aspects.

    The only difference here is that we can be fairly sure some local authorities are reading posts.

    Will some posts turn them off to our cause, well, were they ever turned on in the first place? And maybe it's good for them to see, in the broad light of day, the actual actions of their officers and reactions of the victims of their officers.

    local politics = the squeeky wheel gets the grease. The meek shall not attain policital reform.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    wqbang wrote:
    However, I have seen the following disturbing trends in the last 3 months or so...

    1. Increase in personal attacks.
    2. Bullying.
    3. Open contempt and ridicule of police officers.
    Think about the recent Olympia incident for a few seconds.

    1) I'd rather deal with some personal attacks online in a forum, as opposed to haveing a cop put a gun to my back in real life.

    2) I'd rather deal with some internet bullying, as opposed to having a 'gang' of three cops bully me in real life for simply doing a legal activity.

    3) I'd rather deal with open contempt and ridicule online in a forum from a bunch of strangers who have NO power over me... than deal with contempt and ridicule in real lifefrom elected and appointed public officials, who have a great deal of power over me.

    What you are seeing being expressed on the board is mostly,imho, righteous indignation. And people have actually been very restrained and civil -- all things considered.

    And for the record, I think that forum member Johnnylaw is a troll who is participating with the intent to create negative controversy. He is not here to help, he is not on our side, but rather he continually poke the embers to stir up some fire.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

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    Dave_pro2a wrote:
    And for the record, I think that forum member Johnnylaw is a troll......


    We will see. I will keep an eye on him.




    No not the right one, the good one. The left one.

    Tarzan


    Update.....After spot checking about half of his posts, I see no evidence that Johnny Law is a Troll. But what do I know I only have one good eye.

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    You can't swing a dead mongoose without reading the acount of some lawful gunholder being harassed by "the man." We have people actively persuing legal recourse, have some people with multiple court cases over having an LEO lock them up on a questionable chagre.

    The swinging of dead predators aside, this is the sad truth. Look, between Law Enforcement who view guns as their purview, Liberals who wish they were all gone in a happy world of flowers and pony's and fluffy candy, Animal rights activists who figure anyone with a gun is a kitten murdering psycho, criminals who want safer work conditions and political Activists who are trying to get as much power and money as possible milking the ignorant, the average gun owner feels a little besieged.

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    Dave_pro2a wrote:
    And for the record, I think that forum member Johnnylaw is a troll who is participating with the intent to create negative controversy. He is not here to help, he is not on our side, but rather he continually poke the embers to stir up some fire.
    Had you said this at the beginning when he first joined, then yes. But I do believe he has come a long way and deserves a second chance. Everything he has said does have a valid point, even if we don't want to hear it. I for one enjoy hearing his point of view. It offers a realistic approach rather than what we all want to happen.

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    Regular Member Johnny Law's Avatar
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    Dave_pro2a wrote:
    wqbang wrote:
    However, I have seen the following disturbing trends in the last 3 months or so...

    1. Increase in personal attacks.
    2. Bullying.
    3. Open contempt and ridicule of police officers.


    And for the record, I think that forum member Johnnylaw is a troll who is participating with the intent to create negative controversy. He is not here to help, he is not on our side, but rather he continually poke the embers to stir up some fire.
    Dave, and Tarzan,

    Inquiring about "raising the bar" on this forum would hardly be considered trolling.

    God forbid that they take away that 3rd bullet point, as it seems to be popular with some.

    Also I have had some great in-depth discussions via pm's with many of the ranks here and have been asked for legal type advice several times. I will freely offeradvice toanyone here in that manner. I have alsomade several provisions to help the oc cause, which you are unaware of. If youare willing to just relax and not be so quick to judge, you mightlearn that I have already helped many here.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Johnny Law wrote:
    Dave, and Tarzan,
    Johnny please check my post above. It has been updated, and it was updated BEFORE I read your latest post.

    I don't know you and it was suggested that you were a troll. I went to your posts and checked it out. I see no evidence that you are a troll. I am sorry that I in any way may have falsely accused you.

    PS I like to use a little humor in my posts, but it is nothing personal.



    Tarzan

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    Regular Member Johnny Law's Avatar
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    tarzan1888 wrote:
    Johnny Law wrote:
    Dave, and Tarzan,
    Johnny please check my post above. It has been updated, and it was updated BEFORE I read your latest post.

    I don't know you and it was suggested that you were a troll. I went to your posts and checked it out. I see no evidence that you are a troll. I am sorry that I in any way may have falsely accused you.

    PS I like to use a little humor in my posts, but it is nothing personal.



    Tarzan
    No offense taken. I hadn't seen that guy's picture in some time and was laughing to myself about it. I too enjoy a little humor injected at the right moment.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    1. To clarify, I posted this to the Washington forum intentionally because that is where I participate.

    2. The intention of this thread is to discuss actions and perceptions. How are posts are perceived ARE important for open carry. Perception IS reality.

    3. The observations I made at the beginning of this posts are my perceptions. Perhaps I am just being "sensitive", but I guarantee that I am not the only one.

    4. I don't want this board to be like "those" boards. Even if you think THR is one of "those" boards. I want this forum to have intelligent debate. This is a forum about open carry and those who oppose it should be rebuked - but that does not mean civility needs to be thrown to the wind. DONT FEED THE TROLLS!

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    By the nature of the subject matter discussed here, you are going to hear more complaints about police officers than praise.

    There has been praise as well as the non sensational reports of LEO having no issue with someones OC.

    The reports where an LEO acted inappropriately are the ones that get discussed (rightfully so).

    It's the way it is.


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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Johnny Law wrote:
    Also I have had some great in-depth discussions via pm's with many of the ranks here and have been asked for legal type advice several times. I will freely offeradvice toanyone here in that manner. I have alsomade several provisions to help the oc cause, which you are unaware of. If youare willing to just relax and not be so quick to judge, you mightlearn that I have already helped many here.
    I'm not privy to your PMs.

    If you're helping, great.

    But remember, our rights are being attacked by police officers who point guns and slap on handcuffs and let the DA sort it out later (at the expense and mental trama of the vicitim). So yes, many of us (well at least me) are critical of LEOs in general, based on numerous specific instances. When a LEO is on a gun board, constantly 'defending' the actions of other LEOs, it's suspect imho.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    By the nature of the subject matter discussed here, you are going to hear more complaints about police officers than praise.

    There has been praise as well as the non sensational reports of LEO having no issue with someones OC.

    The reports where an LEO acted inappropriately are the ones that get discussed (rightfully so).

    It's the way it is.
    That's true for any profession.

    Just ask a gas station attendant, a librarian, a postal employee, a barista, a sales clerk, etc.

    Compliments are HARD WON, anger and complaints come easy.

    http://money.howstuffworks.com/customer-service2.htm

    "Studies show that a satisfied customer will tell 2-3 people about his experience with your company. A dissatisfied consumer will share their lament with 8-10 people and some will push that number to twenty. "

    And that's over piddly stuff, burgers and car bumpers... not over things as important as inalienable natural rights.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

  23. #23
    Regular Member Johnny Law's Avatar
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    Dave_pro2a wrote:
    Johnny Law wrote:
    Also I have had some great in-depth discussions via pm's with many of the ranks here and have been asked for legal type advice several times. I will freely offeradvice toanyone here in that manner. I have alsomade several provisions to help the oc cause, which you are unaware of. If youare willing to just relax and not be so quick to judge, you mightlearn that I have already helped many here.
    I'm not privy to your PMs.

    If you're helping, great.

    But remember, our rights are being attacked by police officers who point guns and slap on handcuffs and let the DA sort it out later (at the expense and mental trama of the vicitim). So yes, many of us (well at least me) are critical of LEOs in general, based on numerous specific instances. When a LEO is on a gun board, constantly 'defending' the actions of other LEOs, it's suspect imho.
    I understand your point, but I think sometimes myintent ismisinterpreted.

    Many times when I try to explain a certain Police procedure and the reasoning behind it, I am accused of trying to justify another Officer's actions. I do play devil's advocate many times, but that is sometimes the nature of my perspective. I do this in hopes of clarifying why a certain event may have occured. The more knowledge on a specific topic one has, the better one is able to understand it.

    I fully realize that some of the things I say are not what everyone wants to hear, but I am a realist, anddon't think anyone here needs words to be candy coated.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

  24. #24
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    Though I am still new here. I have enjoyed Johnny Law's posts. While I frequently disagree with his views having them enrichens this site. What good is a discussion if everyone has the same opinion?

    irfner

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    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    One other thing not already mentioned. While is it somewhat normal for threads to deviate from the original topic, it seems to be an epidemic here.

    Before we respond to a message, we should consider if our response is on topic with the ORIGINAL topic of the thread. If it isn't perhaps a new thread should be opened instead. If it's not worth a new thread, perhaps one should reconsider the post.

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