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Thread: Lunch or Evening at the University Mall

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    Sgt Jenson called me the other day and wanted to see if I wanted to do a lunch or evening at the mall. I figured an evening would be good with most of our work schedules and there would also be a lot of people there.

    Anyway let me know what you all think. I was thinking about doing it sometime next week. Before friday becasue I am talking my holiday and going to Washington.

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    rocknsnow wrote:
    Sgt Jenson called me the other day and wanted to see if I wanted to do a lunch or evening at the mall. I figured an evening would be good with most of our work schedules and there would also be a lot of people there.

    Anyway let me know what you all think. I was thinking about doing it sometime next week. Before friday becasue I am talking my holiday and going to Washington.
    I am a little concerned with your reasoning for making the continued trips to the mall. The security has already askedpeopleto leave for openly carrying. Why don't you just find a different place to go? I understand that it is your right to carry, but why do you feel the need to initiate confrontations?Places that limit the ability for us to protect ourselves don't even deserve the time you spend there to make a stand.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    I'm ready when you are, Tucker! And Brian, If you ever want us to walk with you through Layton Hills Mall with you, let us know. :P
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    I'm ready when you are, Tucker! And Brian, If you ever want us to walk with you through Layton Hills Mall with you, let us know. :P
    Like I said, if the mall won't allow us to protect ourselves while on their property, then they don't deserve our business. When you continually push the envelope with an organization that has already expressed its opinion on not allowing OC on their property, you are bordering harassment and trespassing charges. All it would take is for you to be recognized and for them to have proof that they already told you to leave once, and you are done, that is justification for them to press charges. I would never try to tell you guys not to express yourselves, but I can see safer way to do so.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    rocknsnow wrote:
    They said that it was the mall policy to have me do such. I asked if there were signs or something for me to see that stated if I offeneded someone that I had to change my ways. That kind of made them mad. I just ended up leaving becuase I didn't want to cause a disturbance.
    rocknsnow wrote:
    I was stopped by the security guard. He asked me if I was a LEo and I told him no. He then asked me if I had my concealed, I responded no (i am not 21 yet). He then told me that I needed to either conver up my sidearm or put it in my truck. I asked him if that was the malls policy and where there was a sign stating that I needed to do such a thing. He said there wasn't. He told me that he didn't like me carrying around my sidearm and thus wanted me to put it away.
    Why should we stop visiting an establishment based on an off duty LEO's opinion?
    He was never asked to leave. Both times they asked if he would put his gun car. I have been to this mall before, and have asked to see the policy that prohibits firearms in the mall. And guess what? There is no policy. Mall management never asked him to leave, and neither did security. The simply said "You're freaking people out!"

    If we refuse to visit places where we "freak people out" while legally armed, we might as well just stay home and order pizza. I am not criticizing you, Brian. If you want to shun a business because a cop had an opinion, that's fine with me. But I refuse to be bullied around and told what to do when something is not justifed. This (The University Mall) is not my battle, but I have offered to help educate. I feel even more so inclined after the Omaha Mall shooting.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    rocknsnow wrote:
    They said that it was the mall policy to have me do such. I asked if there were signs or something for me to see that stated if I offeneded someone that I had to change my ways. That kind of made them mad. I just ended up leaving becuase I didn't want to cause a disturbance.
    rocknsnow wrote:
    I was stopped by the security guard. He asked me if I was a LEo and I told him no. He then asked me if I had my concealed, I responded no (i am not 21 yet). He then told me that I needed to either conver up my sidearm or put it in my truck. I asked him if that was the malls policy and where there was a sign stating that I needed to do such a thing. He said there wasn't. He told me that he didn't like me carrying around my sidearm and thus wanted me to put it away.
    Why should we stop visiting an establishment based on an off duty LEO's opinion?
    He was never asked to leave. Both times they asked if he would put his gun car. I have been to this mall before, and have asked to see the policy that prohibits firearms in the mall. And guess what? There is no policy. Mall management never asked him to leave, and neither did security. The simply said "You're freaking people out!"

    If we refuse to visit places where we "freak people out" while legally armed, we might as well just stay home and order pizza. I am not criticizing you, Brian. If you want to shun a business because a cop had an opinion, that's fine with me. But I refuse to be bullied around and told what to do when something is not justifed. This (The University Mall) is not my battle, but I have offered to help educate. I feel even more so inclined after the Omaha Mall shooting.
    You guys can fight the battle all you want, and if the "security" that asked you to leave is not actually hired by the Mall, then you might have a case, but if the mall hired the officer to watch over the Mall, then he has the right to ask you to leave guns outside, and his "opinion" is the malls "opinion" as long as he is working for them. As much as it "is not justified" that is the way the law state reads, and if you feel the need to try to change the law, then by all means, carry in the mall.

    I just don't see the need to intentionally try to cause a confrontation when there are tons of places that allow OC and they carry the same products. This type of agenda is not one of education, but one of intimidation and showmanship (as some courts interpret the law). This is where you get in trouble. Open carry has its place.....but so does Concealed carry, and I see this location as one of them.

    You are correct in that you are "legally armed" but they can legally put restrictions on their customers. As you mentioned, the opinion of the officer is, "You're freaking people out!", and if the mall agrees, then you lose. You can still be armed without showing it, and sometimes we forget this concept.

    I take no offense to your comments, and I would hope you feel same about mine, I would just hate to see you guys get into trouble over something as "an officers opinion". The mall apparenty feels he has the knowledge to protect the people, or they wouldn't still have him on the payroll. B


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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    I take no offense in anything I read on the internet. I just see it as healthy debate! :P

    I would like to repeat what I said earlier. He was never asked to leave the mall, even after he refused to take his firearm to his car. Also, Tucker is not yet 21, and therefore cannot conceal his pistol unless he wants to do so unlawfully. I am not a fan of concealed carry. It is usually uncomfortable, and I feel like I am hiding something. The POS that shot up the Omaha mall was concealing an AK under his sweatshirt. He had something to hide.

    If we have an encounter where we are asked to leave, we will do just that. I am not going to argue with anybody about their right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. I will, however, let them (management) know of my dissatisfaction. If they don't want my money anymore, I am fine with that.

    If the sheeple get scared of us and we are forced to leave, too bad for them. With all of the recent shootings in malls, I would hope that they would welcome such a sight.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    I'll be in Salt Lake over Christmas, hopefully with my Taurus PT1911B-1 (if I can get it in time...). Would love to meet some of you folks, if you get any free time.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    We are having a get together on the 29th. We would love to have you there.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    I'll get it on my calander, Thanks!

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    Tacomatose wrote:
    SGT Jensen wrote:
    I'm ready when you are, Tucker! And Brian, If you ever want us to walk with you through Layton Hills Mall with you, let us know. :P
    Like I said, if the mall won't allow us to protect ourselves while on their property, then they don't deserve our business. When you continually push the envelope with an organization that has already expressed its opinion on not allowing OC on their property, you are bordering harassment and trespassing charges. All it would take is for you to be recognized and for them to have proof that they already told you to leave once, and you are done, that is justification for them to press charges. I would never try to tell you guys not to express yourselves, but I can see safer way to do so.
    Keep in mind they were asked to leave the gun in the car... Not told to never come back. If they get told to leave and never come back they can get charged for tresspassing. If they were told to leave the gun in the car, and again return with their firearms, I think tresspassing charges would be a stretch.

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    I don't take offense to anything Brian, I appreciateyour opinion and information.

    I have carried there many times. And out of lets say 10 to 15 times only twice have I been asked to go put my sidearm away and then come back in. They have never taken my name and information at any time so I agree with Kevin that we just need to get them used to the idea of people carrying sidearms. I think that part of the problem right now that the security officers might have at the moment is the Holiday seasons. There is a lot more people and I think that it is a great oppurtunity to educate people about OCDO.



    Hey Kevin I will call you may be today (satuday) most likely tommorrow and set up a time to meet up. Thanks.


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    Mall + Christmas shopping = not a snowballs chance in HE double hockey sticks. I would love to join in on a mall trip, maybe after the holidays.

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    we can always do more then one. I still need to call kevin and set up this weeks outing.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Yeah, slacker! I was thinking we could dress in our ACU's and OC our AR's. :P (Damn Acronyms!) What do you think the public perception of a couple of soldiers carrying rifles in the mall would be? Do you think they would even care?

    Now before everyone starts commenting on how bad of an idea this is, it is merely a question. I don't plan on doing this for real, I am just curious if the public would react differently to the military vs. a civillian.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Yeah, slacker! I was thinking we could dress in our ACU's and OC our AR's. :P (Damn Acronyms!) What do you think the public perception of a couple of soldiers carrying rifles in the mall would be? Do you think they would even care?
    It would get my attention. I'd want to call your commanding officer and find out if you were really authorized to take duty weapons to the mall, in uniform. That they might be personal weapons probably wouldn't occur to me.

    Of course, I find myself mildly annoyed whenever I see soldiers in combat dress. When I was in the Air Force, it was against regulations to go out in public in BDUs. Blues were fine, but BDUs were verboten, unless you were actually traveling to or from work, and even then you could only stop for brief errands.

    Based on the number of soldiers I see wearing battle dress in airports, etc., I'm sure the regulations have changed, but these things get burned deep in your psyche.

    That raises an interesting question: Is there any prohibition in the UCMJ (unlikely), or other command-specific regulations, against carrying a personal weapon in uniform, in public? Other than in a combat zone, of course, where commanders tend not to mind if you want to bring along a little personal "insurance" to backstop your duty weapon.

    Back to your original question, I realize you were joking at least in part, but I would recommend against it. Unhappiness over the Iraq situation is already causing some people to look down on soldiers, and I would want to avoid attracting any potentially negative attention while in uniform. Better to work on getting people acclimatized to the notion that citizens can OC.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    I read somewhere recently that the military wants us to wear our ACU's (BDU) more often. Something about trying to raise awareness or something like that. When I first enlisted, they were more strict about where we could go whiled dressed in a combat uniform. Now they encourage us to wear them on flights as apposed to civillian attire.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Hey guys,

    I am new to the OC forum, for that matter new to the OC.

    Have been CWP holder for 5 years now up here in Riverdaleand like many others I was misinformed by my CWP instructor on the Utah Law.

    Just read the article in the Standard Examiner and loved it!! I had to check out the forum and I have been reading for 4hrs now.
    Is there a place and time for the get-together on the 29th?? Please let me know I would love to meet all of you.

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    Utahgundad wrote:
    Hey guys,

    I am new to the OC forum, for that matter new to the OC.

    Have been CWP holder for 5 years now up here in Riverdaleand like many others I was misinformed by my CWP instructor on the Utah Law.

    Just read the article in the Standard Examiner and loved it!! I had to check out the forum and I have been reading for 4hrs now.
    Is there a place and time for the get-together on the 29th?? Please let me know I would love to meet all of you.
    The place is still pending, with any luck we will know tomorrow. If we don't hear anything about a place by christmas we will throw together a last minute meet.

  20. #20
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    UTOC-45-44 is looking for a good place to meet. He has already arranged to have Clark Aposhian and Mitch Vilos attend with us. Should be a lot of fun! Just watch for a december meet update...
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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