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Thread: Private transfers of guns

  1. #1
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    The thread about the gun buy back got me to thinking. Imagine you buy a nice gun from someone and carry the gun. A few months to a year later, you're detained and the serial number on the gun is run. The gun comes back stolen. What are the ramifications?

    - Is possession of a stolen gun prima facie evidence of theft? Is it a crime even if you didn't know?

    - Does the state repossess the gun at that point?

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    IANAL

    No - If you buy a tv at a yard sale and it turns out to be stolen, is that evidence of theft? I think not.
    No
    Yes

    I expect you would have a lot of questions to answer. If I ever did a private transaction I would definately have a bill of sale. It will help with some of the 'splaining you will have to do.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    IANAL

    No - If you buy a tv at a yard sale and it turns out to be stolen, is that evidence of theft? I think not.
    No
    Yes

    I expect you would have a lot of questions to answer. If I ever did a private transaction I would definately have a bill of sale. It will help with some of the 'splaining you will have to do.
    So, no, they won't repossess the gun or yes they will? I guess they'd try to track down the true owner, and if they couldn't, then they'd let you keep it...but that's kinda my question. Would they give it back to you if they couldn't find the true owner or just keep it because it's a "stolen gun?"

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    Without an owner, how can it be stolen? This is nearly a registration argument and certainly one against forfeiture.

    Without commission of a crime, allowing the gun's 'trace', how would it be known to have changed hands?

    Don't argue with a pig or a PIG, everyone gets dirtied and the pig enjoys it, the PIG is sullied and doesn't even know it.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. LAB/NRA/GOP *******

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    ama-gi wrote:
    The thread about the gun buy back got me to thinking. Imagine you buy a nice gun from someone and carry the gun. A few months to a year later, you're detained and the serial number on the gun is run. The gun comes back stolen. What are the ramifications?

    - Is possession of a stolen gun prima facie evidence of theft? Is it a crime even if you didn't know?
    No...especially if you have a Bill of Sale

    - Does the state repossess the gun at that point?
    The gun will most likely be confiscated if it was reported stolen...and, you will not likely get your money back without a law suit against the seller...IF you can prove he/she knew it was stolen.

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    If for some reason your SN is ran and the gun returns as stolen....

    The stolen status of the gun WILL be verified with the LE agency that took the report and entered it into the computer.

    If the status is valid.... you are in possession of stolen property! The gun WILL BE CONFISCATED and you will NOT get it back. The gun needs to be returned to the rightful owner.

    You will be questioned on how you came into possession and I hope you can prove you bought it from someone. A dated bill of sale would be perfect but it still needs to be validated. Just because you have a bill of sale does not get you off the hook. You could have created your own with a fake seller. I hope you verified the seller's information somehow.

    If you can produce the bill of sale you willprobably NOT be arrested and the matter will be investigated further. If the seller can be located.. the information would be verified and maybe he too has a bill of sale from someone else.

    You will not get your money back either. Sorry....

    EDIT: The last stolen gun I found... I could not locate the owner since they had moved. Because the status was stolen I kept the gun and a few years later sent it up for destruction.


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    LEO 229 wrote:
    ...a few years later sent it up for destruction.
    blasphemy

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    fizzer wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    ...a few years later sent it up for destruction.
    blasphemy
    I know.... I tired really hard to return it to the owner.. But the evidence room sent me a note... "Keep or Destroy" and I had to make the ultimate decision.....

    Icould not sleep that night... OK. Maybe I did since it was not MY gun.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    EDIT: The last stolen gun I found... I could not locate the owner since they had moved. Because the status was stolen I kept the gun and a few years later sent it up for destruction.
    Is this standard operating procedure for ALL stolen items of just guns? Something tells me that if a diamond ring was missing/stolen and you couldn't find the rightful owner, you'd give it to the person who mistakenly bought it rather than destroying it. Am I right? If so, why the difference?

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    ama-gi wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    EDIT: The last stolen gun I found... I could not locate the owner since they had moved. Because the status was stolen I kept the gun and a few years later sent it up for destruction.
    Is this standard operating procedure for ALL stolen items of just guns? Something tells me that if a diamond ring was missing/stolen and you couldn't find the rightful owner, you'd give it to the person who mistakenly bought it rather than destroying it. Am I right? If so, why the difference?
    different states do different things i have seen links on other forums to a state auction sitet hat sells siezed property including firearms. so i think it is a state by state thing.



    joe

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    Since this subject keeps coming up and I'm still against the Bill sale check the ID BS......If you know a friendly cop, they will almost always run the serial number for you to see if it's stolen.

    Make a note of the officers name and the date he checked it for you. If it wasn't stolen then, the chances of it ever showing as stolen are about the same as death by meteorite.



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    67GT390FB wrote:
    ama-gi wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    EDIT: The last stolen gun I found... I could not locate the owner since they had moved. Because the status was stolen I kept the gun and a few years later sent it up for destruction.
    Is this standard operating procedure for ALL stolen items of just guns? Something tells me that if a diamond ring was missing/stolen and you couldn't find the rightful owner, you'd give it to the person who mistakenly bought it rather than destroying it. Am I right? If so, why the difference?
    different states do different things i have seen links on other forums to a state auction sitet hat sells siezed property including firearms. so i think it is a state by state thing.



    joe
    Absolutely... Departments here in Virginia auction stuff too. Some departments do not want guns going back out in public. My small department is one of them.

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    peter nap wrote:
    Since this subject keeps coming up and I'm still against the Bill sale check the ID BS......If you know a friendly cop, they will almost always run the serial number for you to see if it's stolen.

    Make a note of the officers name and the date he checked it for you. If it wasn't stolen then, the chances of it ever showing as stolen are about the same as death by meteorite.
    We talked about this on another thread.

    If you called the police and requested an officer in regards to a gun they will send one. You can then show him the gun and ask if he would just check and see if it was stolen. You know cops... they LOVE to run a SN and will jump at the chance to run it for you.

    Get his business card and date it.. But I still like the bill of sale. Signatures are solid proof.

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    Does an FFL have the ability to check if a gun's S/N is clean? Can you just call and ask him to run the #?

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    soloban wrote:
    Does an FFL have the ability to check if a gun's S/N is clean? Can you just call and ask him to run the #?
    I am not sure.... Maybe when they do the paperwork the provide the SN of the gun to the state police.

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    What about the thing I heard about when I was a kid...where you find something, bring it to the police and if no one claims it in 30 days, it's yours?

    It seems that if someone bought something that was stolen and has a bill of sale, the item should go to the true owner, but if he can't be found it should go to the unwitting buyer.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    67GT390FB wrote:
    ama-gi wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    EDIT: The last stolen gun I found... I could not locate the owner since they had moved. Because the status was stolen I kept the gun and a few years later sent it up for destruction.
    Is this standard operating procedure for ALL stolen items of just guns? Something tells me that if a diamond ring was missing/stolen and you couldn't find the rightful owner, you'd give it to the person who mistakenly bought it rather than destroying it. Am I right? If so, why the difference?
    different states do different things i have seen links on other forums to a state auction sitet hat sells siezed property including firearms. so i think it is a state by state thing.



    joe
    Absolutely... Departments here in Virginia auction stuff too. Some departments do not want guns going back out in public. My small department is one of them.
    what is the rationale for this? why treat a firearm differently than a car? the firearm buyerwould have to go through a background check correct?

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    ama-gi wrote:
    What about the thing I heard about when I was a kid...where you find something, bring it to the police and if no one claims it in 30 days, it's yours?

    It seems that if someone bought something that was stolen and has a bill of sale, the item should go to the true owner, but if he can't be found it should go to the unwitting buyer.
    Not impossible... depends on department policy.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    what is the rationale for this? why treat a firearm differently than a car? the firearm buyer would have to go through a background check correct?
    Years ago, there was a fellow that had a table at a couple of the gunshows. He had somehow bought all the guns one of the rural departments had. His deal was any firearm...$100.00

    I bought a High Standard 22mag Derringer, A little 308 with an aluminum frame that looked like a miniature 1911 (can't remember who made it, it's in a box somewhere), a Colt Detective Special and a few others.
    I sure wish he'd come back.

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    The last stolen gun I found... I could not locate the owner since they had moved. Because the status was stolen I kept the gun and a few years later sent it up for destruction.


    Is this standard operating procedure for ALL stolen items of just guns? Something tells me that if a diamond ring was missing/stolen and you couldn't find the rightful owner, you'd give it to the person who mistakenly bought it rather than destroying it. Am I right? If so, why the difference?
    The difference is because a firearm has to be transferred from licensed manufacturer to licensed wholesaler to licensed dealer to purchaser, except in a sale from one non-dealer owner to a non-dealer purchaser. Police departments are not 01 dealersand thus cannot log in a firearm that they would later log out.

    Neither are they a non-dealer owner of the firearm - remember, they confiscated it from you when it was discovered to be reported as stolen from somebody who is not you.

    When the person who reported it as stolen is located, they are run through NICS to verify they are still legally allowed to posses a firearm. The only thing they do not have to do is fill out another 4473 form - again because the police are not an 01 dealer and thus not required or allowed by BATFE to mess with 4473's.

    If the person who reported the firearm as stolen cannot be located, or flunks NICS, the police department cannot legally do ANYTHING with it except destroy it. They have no legal authority to transfer it to anybody, and they have no legal authority to convert it to LE use and put it into their inventory. (As a side note, some of the firearms they confiscate as evidence of being used in the commission of a crime may legallybe converted to LE use and placed in the PD's inventory.)

    Diamond rings, on the other hand, are not controlled by BAFTE regulations or other federal/state law restricting how & to whom they can be sold/traded (as in exchanged)/or given away. In fact there are laws on the books in Virginia on exactly how, and when, the finder of unclaimed lost property can assume ownership of the item(s).

    Too bad the feds (and following their lead, the locals) have created the fiction that large sums of cash found laying about are not only evidence of crimes, but one of the possible perpetrators of said crimes. The cash is actually charged and a hearing is held in court to allow the cash to show why it should not be charged with the crime. If later convicted, the cash is split between the state & local PD (if the locals "found" it), or the feds get it all if they found it. Maybe on my next visit to a prison I will see $100,000.00, having been sentenced to 20 years, pumping iron on the exercise yard.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    ama-gi wrote:
    The thread about the gun buy back got me to thinking. Imagine you buy a nice gun from someone and carry the gun. A few months to a year later, you're detained and the serial number on the gun is run. The gun comes back stolen. What are the ramifications?

    - Is possession of a stolen gun prima facie evidence of theft? Is it a crime even if you didn't know?

    - Does the state repossess the gun at that point?
    There are many firearms that you can carry that do not have a SN. I have several. This is a good thing.

    P.S. I am not talking about altering/defacing/etc, just older guns that were made without the numbers and an 80% gun that I finished.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Where can you buy 80% guns and what is involved in finishing them?

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    ama-gi wrote:
    Where can you buy 80% guns and what is involved in finishing them?
    http://www.diyguns.com/

    http://www.tanneryshop.com/

    http://www.philaord.com/

    https://www.vbd.com/noc/shop/default.asp

    http://sksparts.com/


    Just to name a few.... .....most have info out the wazoo...enjoy!





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    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.1022:

    Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2007 (Introduced in House)

    SEC. 6. REQUIRING BACKGROUND CHECKS FOR THE TRANSFER OF LAWFULLY POSSESSED SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS.

    • Section 922(v) of title 18, United States Code, as added by section 2(a) of this Act, is amended by adding at the end the following:


    • `(5) It shall be unlawful for any person to transfer a semiautomatic assault weapon to which paragraph (1) does not apply, except through--


      • `(A) a licensed dealer, and for purposes of subsection (t) in the case of such a transfer, the weapon shall be considered to be transferred from the business inventory of the licensed dealer and the dealer shall be considered to be the transferor; or


      • `(B) a State or local law enforcement agency if the transfer is made in accordance with the procedures provided for in subsection (t) of this section and section 923(g).


    • `(6) The Attorney General shall establish and maintain, in a timely manner, a record of the make, model, and date of manufacture of any semiautomatic assault weapon which the Attorney General is made aware has been used in relation to a crime under Federal or State law, and the nature and circumstances of the crime involved, including the outcome of relevant criminal investigations and proceedings. The Attorney General shall annually submit the record to the Congress and make the record available to the general public.'.

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    Good thing there's no such thing as a semi-automatic assault weapon.

    Too bad other people seem to think so.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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