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Thread: Encounter at 7-11

  1. #1
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    Some background first. Wearing jeans and a nice pullover vneck shirt. G23 in a Blackhawk holster on my hip. Wife stayed in car because it was cold and she loves the seat warmer.

    Sat evening we were on the way home and I wanted to stop by 7-11 to pick up a Big Gulp and maybe a samich. Pulled into the 7-11 parking lot and noticed a marked cruiser. Thought nothing of it and parked my vehicle. Went inside and straight to the BG machine. Next to it was a uniformed PWC police officer. Started filling up my BG and he went to the counter to pay for his sammich. Collected mine. Turned around and saw him walking towards me. He said:

    Excuse me, can I ask if your law enforcement?

    Nope, just a civilian.

    Then, why are your carrying a handgun?

    Mostly for self defense.

    Why do you need one?

    Because I live in Prince William County.

    Well, how do I know you're not gonna pop off any rounds?

    I won't. But, I don't know if your gonna pop off rounds either.

    I won't, I've gone through background checks to wear this uniform and badge.

    ...

    Can I see your ID?

    Huh?

    Can I see your ID and make sure your not a felon?

    No.

    Don't you want to help out law enforcement and help me to verify that your not wanted or your a felon?

    No. I don't consent to a search nor will I show you my ID.

    Why do you have an issue with me seeing your ID?

    Because, I'm not required by law to show you and I don't consent to a search. I'm not doing anything wrong or illegal.

    If your not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't have a problem letting me see your ID. Your already scaring people by openly carrying a pistol in public.

    I don't consent. Thanks tho and have a good night.

    <walked over to counter and paid for my drink and samiich. Left 7-11 and went towards my car. Officer followed me out and wrote down my license plate numbers. I waved to the officer, started my engine and left.>

    Thoughts on how this went?

    Even critisisms (of myself) are welcome.

    Thanks,

    -X

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I think you handled it perfectly. You were polite, you made your point, but you didn't make a huge issue of it. You wished him a good evening and went about your business. You didn't hassle him with your knowledge.

    I can't see any points to criticize (except your spelling, and I'm trying not to be a spelling/grammar nazi <grin&gt.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

  3. #3
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    No criticisms! I suggest someone look into the circumstances of the cop running your plates. The conversation had nothing to do with your automobile operation but was only a backdoor ID check that may not even be correct.

    If the plate check led to a crime, mightn't the evidence be fruit of a poisoned tree?

  4. #4
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Unless he is an active member of the armed services, he is a "civilian" too.

    Sounds like you did fine.

  5. #5
    Regular Member vt357's Avatar
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    I think you did great. I only have one small complaint that you might need an electron microscope to see as it is so small. Next time instead of saying "just a Civilian," instead say "just a Citizen." The word civilian makes it sound like he is better than you just because he is in law enforcement. But this critique is coming from someone typing on a keyboard - I hope to be as assertive while staying as polite as you were if I encounter a similar situation.

  6. #6
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    Yup, I can see the point in that. Unfortunatly with theline of workthat I do I'm used to hearing the word Civilian tossed around and got out of practice of saying, Citizen.

    I will admit though when I left, I couldn't help feeling like I was doing something wrong or illegal when I knew I wasn't. I think it's the point he brought up of, if your not doing anything wrong - show me your ID. I guess it's just years of saying yes without a second thought.

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    You handled it very well although I second the Citizen comment.

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    I agree w/ saying citizen instead. I would have also taken his badge #, cruiser # and name of his CO, AFTER he decided to press for my ID and doing the back-door ID check w/ the license plate.

    The cop went WAY over the line.

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    I think it was handled well, personally. I might be inclined to write Chief Charlie Deane (if it was indeed, Prince William County) and express concern over the encounter.

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    ufcfanvt wrote:
    I agree w/ saying citizen instead. I would have also taken his badge #, cruiser # and name of his CO, AFTER he decided to press for my ID and doing the back-door ID check w/ the license plate.

    The cop went WAY over the line.
    I would tend to argue that going "WAY over the line" is when the officer illegally detains you, illegally disarms you, and/or illegally arrests you. This officer did none of those things, and because of the professional way that Xeni handled the situation, the officer might not even bother to question the next OC'er that he comes across.

  11. #11
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    you should have been demanding his information! Clearly out of line on his part kudos to you.

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    Campaign Veteran Freeflight's Avatar
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    Well Done, I too agree with the Citizen comment.. and have one more suggestion for ALL of us..

    It's not ..Just a Citizen...

    it is ...I AM a Citizen...

    The words just a citizen implies that we are somewhat less than they...



    JMHO


    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

    Free Flight

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    You did great.

    The officer was within his rights to ask you to voluntarily show ID, and you were within yours to refuse. Alls well that ends well.

    Sure, the officer writing down your license plate leaves a bad taste in the mouth. But still, this is about as good as it gets - no one violated any rule or law or policy, you stood up for yourself, and the officer knew what limitations he was under. Call the Chief if you really want for clarification, but lets save "way over the line" talk for times when, well, someone actually goes way over the line!

    We want to be known for our clear-headedness and rationality... and your actionswent a long way in that regard!

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    hsmith wrote:
    you should have been demanding his information! Clearly out of line on his part kudos to you.
    Yes I would definetly have asked for his badge number and name.

  15. #15
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    Wow, police mind games- and he was very very good at them too. Good job on standing your ground. The only thing I might have done differently is ask "Are you detaining me?"

    Can I see your ID?

    Huh?

    Can I see your ID and make sure your not a felon?

    No.


    LOL! That's fantastic!

  16. #16
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    I'm very impressed with your ability to keep the situation from escalating. Congratulations. I hope I could be as calm and polite in a similar situation.

    As far as the license plate goes, probably not a lot different than a police officer "running" the plate of random cars he sees on the road, which I assume they do from time to time.

    Good job.

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    I agree with the license plate thing. He is well within his right to write down your plate number, but what he does WITH that information is where I might take issue with. (i.e. harassing you next time he saw you, or, heaven forbid, showing up on your door step)

  18. #18
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    Xeni wrote:
    Snip...
    Why do you need one?

    Because I live in Prince William County.
    HAHA, ain't that the truth! I can only wish I will be able to handle the situation as well as you did. I've only been carrying a few months and mostly CC. I'm working my way to OC at this time.

  19. #19
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    ScottNH wrote:
    I'm very impressed with your ability to keep the situation from escalating. Congratulations. I hope I could be as calm and polite in a similar situation.

    As far as the license plate goes, probably not a lot different than a police officer "running" the plate of random cars he sees on the road, which I assume they do from time to time.

    Good job.
    They do. On the ride-alongs that I've been on, the officers would run plate #'s for many different reasons, and boredom seemed to be one of the main reasons.

  20. #20
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    TEX1N wrote:
    ScottNH wrote:
    I'm very impressed with your ability to keep the situation from escalating. Congratulations. I hope I could be as calm and polite in a similar situation.

    As far as the license plate goes, probably not a lot different than a police officer "running" the plate of random cars he sees on the road, which I assume they do from time to time.

    Good job.
    They do. On the ride-alongs that I've been on, the officers would run plate #'s for many different reasons, and boredom seemed to be one of the main reasons.
    This may be an incorrect belief, but I had once heard that it was unlawful for LEO to run a driver's plate unless they were suspected in a crime or had been observed violating a driving law. Is this a correct assumption?

  21. #21
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    No it's not - LEO please correct me if I'm wrong. They can check for registration status and to see if the vehicle is stolen. I'm sure there are other reasons why they would be run, but those are the main ones that I can think of.

  22. #22
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Xeni wrote:
    Some background first. Wearing jeans and a nice pullover vneck shirt. G23 in a Blackhawk holster on my hip. Wife stayed in car because it was cold and she loves the seat warmer.

    Sat evening we were on the way home and I wanted to stop by 7-11 to pick up a Big Gulp and maybe a samich. Pulled into the 7-11 parking lot and noticed a marked cruiser. Thought nothing of it and parked my vehicle. Went inside and straight to the BG machine. Next to it was a uniformed PWC police officer. Started filling up my BG and he went to the counter to pay for his sammich. Collected mine. Turned around and saw him walking towards me. He said:

    Excuse me, can I ask if your law enforcement?

    Nope, just a civilian.

    Then, why are your carrying a handgun?

    Mostly for self defense.

    Why do you need one?

    Because I live in Prince William County.

    Well, how do I know you're not gonna pop off any rounds?

    I won't. But, I don't know if your gonna pop off rounds either.

    I won't, I've gone through background checks to wear this uniform and badge.

    ...

    Can I see your ID?

    Huh?

    Can I see your ID and make sure your not a felon?

    No.

    Don't you want to help out law enforcement and help me to verify that your not wanted or your a felon?

    No. I don't consent to a search nor will I show you my ID.

    Why do you have an issue with me seeing your ID?

    Because, I'm not required by law to show you and I don't consent to a search. I'm not doing anything wrong or illegal.

    If your not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't have a problem letting me see your ID. Your already scaring people by openly carrying a pistol in public.

    I don't consent. Thanks tho and have a good night.

    <walked over to counter and paid for my drink and samiich. Left 7-11 and went towards my car. Officer followed me out and wrote down my license plate numbers. I waved to the officer, started my engine and left.>

    Thoughts on how this went?

    Even critisisms (of myself) are welcome.

    Thanks,

    -X
    May I ask, sir.. in what part of the county did this incident occur? Eastern, central, or western? The reason I ask is I live in the county and any info is always welcome along these lines. Any specificity you may wish to add is also appreciated.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  23. #23
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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    No criticisms! I suggest someone look into the circumstances of the cop running your plates. The conversation had nothing to do with your automobile operation but was only a backdoor ID check that may not even be correct.

    If the plate check led to a crime, mightn't the evidence be fruit of a poisoned tree?
    Sorry... The tags belong to the DMV and the police can run them when they deem it necessary. In this case... I think he can justify it.

    Nice try though..


    We run everybody's tag at the red light. This is how we discover stolen cars. If we could not run tags.. people in stolen cars would NEVER get caught if they obey the traffic laws.

    So if you want to complain about us running tags.. please do not complain that we are taking too long to get your stolen car back.

  24. #24
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    I'm actually surprised that this officer stated his requests in the form of a question. Often times you'll get "Let me see your ID" rather than "Can I see your ID". The latter is a lot easier to say no to.

    In any case, I think you did great and handled the situation well. I actually think the officer did pretty well too. He asked politely (though persistently) and he did not detain you illegally, frisk you, disarm you, etc. We can always file complaints when those sorts of things happen, but that doesn't make them any less of a hassle.

    Overall - except for the "civilian" thing - great job!

  25. #25
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    No criticisms! I suggest someone look into the circumstances of the cop running your plates. The conversation had nothing to do with your automobile operation but was only a backdoor ID check that may not even be correct.

    If the plate check led to a crime, mightn't the evidence be fruit of a poisoned tree?
    Sorry... The tags belong to the DMV and the police can run them when they deem it necessary. In this case... I think he can justify it.

    Nice try though..
    In this scenario whatis the justification?

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