Encounter at 7-11

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No it's not - LEO please correct me if I'm wrong. They can check for registration status and to see if the vehicle is stolen. I'm sure there are other reasons why they would be run, but those are the main ones that I can think of.

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Xeni wrote:

Some background first. Wearing jeans and a nice pullover vneck shirt. G23 in a Blackhawk holster on my hip. Wife stayed in car because it was cold and she loves the seat warmer.

Sat evening we were on the way home and I wanted to stop by 7-11 to pick up a Big Gulp and maybe a samich. Pulled into the 7-11 parking lot and noticed a marked cruiser. Thought nothing of it and parked my vehicle. Went inside and straight to the BG machine. Next to it was a uniformed PWC police officer. Started filling up my BG and he went to the counter to pay for his sammich. Collected mine. Turned around and saw him walking towards me. He said:

Excuse me, can I ask if your law enforcement?

Nope, just a civilian.

Then, why are your carrying a handgun?

Mostly for self defense.

Why do you need one?

Because I live in Prince William County.

Well, how do I know you're not gonna pop off any rounds?

I won't. But, I don't know if your gonna pop off rounds either.

I won't, I've gone through background checks to wear this uniform and badge.

...

Can I see your ID?

Huh?

Can I see your ID and make sure your not a felon?

No.

Don't you want to help out law enforcement and help me to verify that your not wanted or your a felon?

No. I don't consent to a search nor will I show you my ID.

Why do you have an issue with me seeing your ID?

Because, I'm not required by law to show you and I don't consent to a search. I'm not doing anything wrong or illegal.

If your not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't have a problem letting me see your ID. Your already scaring people by openly carrying a pistol in public.

I don't consent. Thanks tho and have a good night.

<walked over to counter and paid for my drink and samiich. Left 7-11 and went towards my car. Officer followed me out and wrote down my license plate numbers. I waved to the officer, started my engine and left.>

Thoughts on how this went?

Even critisisms (of myself) are welcome.

Thanks,

-X

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May I ask, sir.. in what part of the county did this incident occur? Eastern, central, or western? The reason I ask is I live in the county and any info is always welcome along these lines. Any specificity you may wish to add is also appreciated.

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Doug Huffman wrote:

No criticisms! I suggest someone look into the circumstances of the cop running your plates. The conversation had nothing to do with your automobile operation but was only a backdoor ID check that may not even be correct.

If the plate check led to a crime, mightn't the evidence be fruit of a poisoned tree?

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Sorry... The tags belong to the DMV and the police can run them when they deem it necessary. In this case... I think he can justify it.

Nice try though..


We run everybody's tag at the red light. This is how we discover stolen cars. If we could not run tags.. people in stolen cars would NEVER get caught if they obey the traffic laws.

So if you want to complain about us running tags.. please do not complain that we are taking too long to get your stolen car back. :lol:

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I'm actually surprised that this officer stated his requests in the form of a question. Often times you'll get "Let me see your ID" rather than "Can I see your ID". The latter is a lot easier to say no to.

In any case, I think you did great and handled the situation well. I actually think the officer did pretty well too. He asked politely (though persistently) and he did not detain you illegally, frisk you, disarm you, etc. We can always file complaints when those sorts of things happen, but that doesn't make them any less of a hassle.

Overall - except for the "civilian" thing - great job!

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LEO 229 wrote:

Doug Huffman wrote:

No criticisms! I suggest someone look into the circumstances of the cop running your plates. The conversation had nothing to do with your automobile operation but was only a backdoor ID check that may not even be correct.

If the plate check led to a crime, mightn't the evidence be fruit of a poisoned tree?

Click to expand...

Sorry... The tags belong to the DMV and the police can run them when they deem it necessary. In this case... I think he can justify it.

Nice try though..

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In this scenario whatis the justification?

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This is why you need a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin. With that, as I understand it, you do not need to register your car or purchase plates. It is really your property with this document.

I have to admit, I know very little about this or the process to obtain such a thing.

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smccomas wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Doug Huffman wrote:

No criticisms! I suggest someone look into the circumstances of the cop running your plates. The conversation had nothing to do with your automobile operation but was only a backdoor ID check that may not even be correct.

If the plate check led to a crime, mightn't the evidence be fruit of a poisoned tree?

Click to expand...

Sorry... The tags belong to the DMV and the police can run them when they deem it necessary. In this case... I think he can justify it.

Nice try though..

Click to expand...

In this scenario whatis the justification?

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Armed person refusing to cooperate when presented with a reasonable request.

Just like I see a car at the red light... I am aware that many cars are stolen so I am free tosuspect that one of the cars near me could be stolen.

Example of when we cannot would be.... girl is hot looking and I want to see how old she is.

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LEO 229 wrote:

smccomas wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Doug Huffman wrote:

No criticisms! I suggest someone look into the circumstances of the cop running your plates. The conversation had nothing to do with your automobile operation but was only a backdoor ID check that may not even be correct.

If the plate check led to a crime, mightn't the evidence be fruit of a poisoned tree?

Click to expand...

Sorry... The tags belong to the DMV and the police can run them when they deem it necessary. In this case... I think he can justify it.

Nice try though..

Click to expand...

In this scenario whatis the justification?

Click to expand...

Armed person refusing to cooperate when presented with a reasonable request.

Just like I see a car at the red light... I am aware that many cars are stolen so I am free tosuspect that one of the cars near me could be stolen.

Example of when we cannot would be.... girl is hot looking and I want to see how old she is.

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How is it reasonable?

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SouthernBoy wrote:

Xeni wrote:

Some background first. Wearing jeans and a nice pullover vneck shirt. G23 in a Blackhawk holster on my hip. Wife stayed in car because it was cold and she loves the seat warmer.

Sat evening we were on the way home and I wanted to stop by 7-11 to pick up a Big Gulp and maybe a samich. Pulled into the 7-11 parking lot and noticed a marked cruiser. Thought nothing of it and parked my vehicle. Went inside and straight to the BG machine. Next to it was a uniformed PWC police officer. Started filling up my BG and he went to the counter to pay for his sammich. Collected mine. Turned around and saw him walking towards me. He said:

Excuse me, can I ask if your law enforcement?

Nope, just a civilian.

Then, why are your carrying a handgun?

Mostly for self defense.

Why do you need one?

Because I live in Prince William County.

Well, how do I know you're not gonna pop off any rounds?

I won't. But, I don't know if your gonna pop off rounds either.

I won't, I've gone through background checks to wear this uniform and badge.

...

Can I see your ID?

Huh?

Can I see your ID and make sure your not a felon?

No.

Don't you want to help out law enforcement and help me to verify that your not wanted or your a felon?

No. I don't consent to a search nor will I show you my ID.

Why do you have an issue with me seeing your ID?

Because, I'm not required by law to show you and I don't consent to a search. I'm not doing anything wrong or illegal.

If your not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't have a problem letting me see your ID. Your already scaring people by openly carrying a pistol in public.

I don't consent. Thanks tho and have a good night.

<walked over to counter and paid for my drink and samiich. Left 7-11 and went towards my car. Officer followed me out and wrote down my license plate numbers. I waved to the officer, started my engine and left.>

Thoughts on how this went?

Even critisisms (of myself) are welcome.

Thanks,

-X

Click to expand...

May I ask, sir.. in what part of the county did this incident occur? Eastern, central, or western? The reason I ask is I live in the county and any info is always welcome along these lines. Any specificity you may wish to add is also appreciated.

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7-11 located on 234. It's near a housing development not too far from the K.Hov senior homes. It's not the shady 7-11 near I95 nor is it the one in Montclair.

I know the situation could've been worse if either of us had escalated it, but we didn't. I won't say I'm angry or upset over the incident. I think I left the 7-11 mostly neutral. Though, I do think being as obvious as he was in taking down the plates was a little childish, but not to a level where I would complain.

If nothing else, he knew OC was legal and that I was in the right. I just don't think he had ever been in a situation where he had to ask for an ID and been denied it.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

This is why you need a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin. With that, as I understand it, you do not need to register your car or purchase plates. It is really your property with this document.

I have to admit, I know very little about this or the process to obtain such a thing.

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You pay a fee for your drivers license and tags. The items belong to the DMV and you must return them upon request.

46.2-1000 allows me to also take them if your vehicle tagsif it isin violation of a few violations.

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smccomas wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

smccomas wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Doug Huffman wrote:

No criticisms! I suggest someone look into the circumstances of the cop running your plates. The conversation had nothing to do with your automobile operation but was only a backdoor ID check that may not even be correct.

If the plate check led to a crime, mightn't the evidence be fruit of a poisoned tree?

Click to expand...

Sorry... The tags belong to the DMV and the police can run them when they deem it necessary. In this case... I think he can justify it.

Nice try though..

Click to expand...

In this scenario whatis the justification?

Click to expand...

Armed person refusing to cooperate when presented with a reasonable request.

Just like I see a car at the red light... I am aware that many cars are stolen so I am free tosuspect that one of the cars near me could be stolen.

Example of when we cannot would be.... girl is hot looking and I want to see how old she is.

Click to expand...

How is it reasonable?

Click to expand...

The officer suspects that the person may be a felon... he even said so in the conversation. It was done for criminal justice purposes.

The purpose was to be sure that the subject armed with a gun was legal to do so. This did not cause any harm or delay to the subject who was allowed to go on his way.

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Well handled!!

Please do complain. A copy of the complaint will likely go into the Officer's file, even if it can't be proven. Let him stack up a few of those and trouble will accrue for him.

Regarding the question, "How do I know you won't pop off a round?" Its a trick question that can't be answered. Nothing you say will "prove" you won't. I think your answer worked fine. Another would be, "The Founders thought it unlikely enough to ensure the Right to Keep and Bear Arms." Another might be, "All you need to know is that it is legal."

A very good tactic is to ask questions rather than answer. "Why am I being stopped?" (He may slip up and reveal that he thinks he is stopping you.) "What am I doing that is illegal?" "Why are you suspicious of the exercise of a constitutionally protected right?" "Haven't you heard that criminals don't wear holsters?" Etc.

I'd complain on the repeated ID requests and cheesy attempts at persuasion. You had already declined. Another reply might be, "A citizen never, ever has to justify exercising a right." Another reply might be, "Why are you assuming I might be a criminal?" It would be really handy to get areply like, "Because you're carrying a gun." (Which was the reason here, even if unsaid.) As I understand it, there is case law to the effect that mere lawful possession does not translate into reasonable suspicion. I'd also complain about the overt license plate writing. It was clearly an attempted intimidation. "See, you keep OCing and this is the grief you'll get." He could just as easily have moved off to one side and noted it down without you seeing it--Idid it dozens of times as a 7-Eleven night clerk many years ago.
In thecircumstance described, the officer is legally allowed to investigate whether you are up to anything. However, that still leaves some room to complain. There is no law that says you can only complain if he stepsoutside the law. Youcan still hithis justifications, demeanor,license plate intimidation, testing your willingness to assert your rights, implying you're a crook by refusing to "help law-enforcement" etc.

Did you have a voice-recorder?

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Good job! I'd say that was textbook on how to handle yourself. *APPLAUSE*

Some important pointers can be gleaned from your encounter. Don't escalate, stand up for your rights and then leave. Quick and to the point.

From what I've seen on the board longer you stay and the longer you try to make a point or try to debate the greater chance you have of having a less than pleasant encounter. Or being subject to unlawful search, seizure, and/or arrest. Debate later with his superior from the comfort of your home via email or snail mail.

I would encourage you to drop a note to the police dept detailing your encounter. I would make the following points. (I apologize if I'm stating the obvious)

1. Its not the officers place to determine a citizens need to carry (at least not in this state). He had NO business to question you as to your motives or reasons to carry.

2. He had no reason whatsoever to ask for your ID. Sounds like a fishing expedition to me. His only reason whatsoever to ask for your ID was the fact that you were carrying. I'm fairly sure there was a VA Court of Appeals case that centered around this very fact.

3. Stating that you were scaring people seems like that was his opinion. Again, its not his place to try to dissuade you from carrying because he thinks you are making someone nervous.

Again, great job!

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SouthernBoy wrote:

This is why you need a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin. With that, as I understand it, you do not need to register your car or purchase plates. It is really your property with this document.
The dealer turns them over to the state....IIRC, they have to do this in order to be a new car dealer.

I have to admit, I know very little about this or the process to obtain such a thing.

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just a guy, with a Glock wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

This is why you need a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin. With that, as I understand it, you do not need to register your car or purchase plates. It is really your property with this document.

I have to admit, I know very little about this or the process to obtain such a thing.

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That won't fly in the CommonWealth.

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That depends on how far you are willing to take "the fight".....it is a clearly established premise in the courts.

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No way he thought he was a felon. It started as anti open carry harrasment, and he didn't expect to run across someone who handed his tail back to him. "Good on ya Mate!" The officer was determined to push his agenda, even though he didn't cross any lines, it was in very bad form. How many felons have you run across open carrying LEO229? I didn't run across any while on the job. Not open carrying anyway. This kinda behavior is what fuels all the anti cop bashing remarks found on this forum. sounds like he needs a chat with the chief. My .02.

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I'd say to ask for his business card with the name and number of his CO written on it (or all the information including his name and badge number) prior to (if you want to) show him your ID. Seems like that would be a way of doing it without seeming like you just don't want to cooperate... that is, if you have no problem showing your ID.

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Citizen wrote:

Well handled!!

Please do complain. A copy of the complaint will likely go into the Officer's file, even if it can't be proven. Let him stack up a few of those and trouble will accrue for him.

Regarding the question, "How do I know you won't pop off a round?" Its a trick question that can't be answered. Nothing you say will "prove" you won't. I think your answer worked fine. Another would be, "The Founders thought it unlikely enough to ensure the Right to Keep and Bear Arms." Another might be, "All you need to know is that it is legal."

A very good tactic is to ask questions rather than answer. "Why am I being stopped?" (He may slip up and reveal that he thinks he is stopping you.) "What am I doing that is illegal?" "Why are you suspicious of the exercise of a constitutionally protected right?" "Haven't you heard that criminals don't wear holsters?" Etc.

I'd complain on the repeated ID requests and cheesy attempts at persuasion. You had already declined. Another reply might be, "Why are you assuming I might be a criminal?" It would be really handy to get areply like, "Because you're carrying a gun." (Which was the reason here, even if unsaid.) As I understand it, there is case law to the effect that mere lawful possession does not translate into reasonable suspicion. I'd also complain about the overt license plate writing. It was clearly an attempted intimidation. "See, you keep OCing and this is the grief you'll get." He could just as easily have moved off to one side and noted it down without you seeing it--Idid it dozens of times as a 7-Eleven night clerk many years ago.

In thecircumstance described, the officer is legally allowed to investigate whether you are up to anything. However, that still leaves some room to complain. There is no law that says you can only complain if he stepsoutside the law. Youcan still hithis justifications, demeanor,license plate intimidation, testing your willingness to assert your rights, implying you're a crook by refusing to "help law-enforcement" etc.

Did you have a voice-recorder?

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I cannot believe your actually prompting someone to complain just to get the cops file thicker when you know knew he did nothing wrong.

Just because you are asked a question or checked out does not mean a complaint is in order. Drug dealers do this in DC to cops they know make drug arrests. Once enough complaints have been made the officer is removed from the area and is less productive. Is that what your looking for?

You want cops to go out and find bad guys... but in the same breath you want to complain when they ask a question. The guy was not forced to do anything and the officer simply made requests and allowed the person to walk away.

This is worth making a bullshit complaint over? Just to get his jacket thicker?

You have to be F-ing kidding me Citizen.I just have lost all respect for you now. :cuss:

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LEO 229 wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Well handled!!

Please do complain. A copy of the complaint will likely go into the Officer's file, even if it can't be proven. Let him stack up a few of those and trouble will accrue for him.

Regarding the question, "How do I know you won't pop off a round?" Its a trick question that can't be answered. Nothing you say will "prove" you won't. I think your answer worked fine. Another would be, "The Founders thought it unlikely enough to ensure the Right to Keep and Bear Arms." Another might be, "All you need to know is that it is legal."

A very good tactic is to ask questions rather than answer. "Why am I being stopped?" (He may slip up and reveal that he thinks he is stopping you.) "What am I doing that is illegal?" "Why are you suspicious of the exercise of a constitutionally protected right?" "Haven't you heard that criminals don't wear holsters?" Etc.

I'd complain on the repeated ID requests and cheesy attempts at persuasion. You had already declined. Another reply might be, "Why are you assuming I might be a criminal?" It would be really handy to get areply like, "Because you're carrying a gun." (Which was the reason here, even if unsaid.) As I understand it, there is case law to the effect that mere lawful possession does not translate into reasonable suspicion. I'd also complain about the overt license plate writing. It was clearly an attempted intimidation. "See, you keep OCing and this is the grief you'll get." He could just as easily have moved off to one side and noted it down without you seeing it--Idid it dozens of times as a 7-Eleven night clerk many years ago.

In thecircumstance described, the officer is legally allowed to investigate whether you are up to anything. However, that still leaves some room to complain. There is no law that says you can only complain if he stepsoutside the law. Youcan still hithis justifications, demeanor,license plate intimidation, testing your willingness to assert your rights, implying you're a crook by refusing to "help law-enforcement" etc.

Did you have a voice-recorder?

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I cannot believe your actually prompting someone to complain just to get the cops file thicker when you know knew he did nothing wrong.

Just because you are asked a question or checked out does not mean a complaint is in order. Drug dealers do this in DC to cops they know make drug arrests. Once enough complaints have been made the officer is removed from the area and is less productive. Is that what your looking for?

You want cops to go out and find bad guys... but in the same breath you want to complain when they ask a question. The guy was not forced to do anything and the officer simply made requests and allowed the person to walk away.

This is worth making a bullshit complaint over? Just to get his jacket thicker?

You have to be F-ing kidding me Citizen.I just have lost all respect for you now. :cuss:

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Actually made a request and was denied. He didn't allow him to walk a way either he had no reason to stop him so he could not legally stop him.

Those distinctions are very important. Cuts both ways.

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rchjr wrote:

No way he thought he was a felon. It started as anti open carry harrasment, and he didn't expect to run across someone who handed his tail back to him. "Good on ya Mate!" The officer was determined to push his agenda, even though he didn't cross any lines, it was in very bad form. How many felons have you run across open carrying LEO229? I didn't run across any while on the job. Not open carrying anyway. This kinda behavior is what fuels all the anti cop bashing remarks found on this forum. sounds like he needs a chat with the chief. My .02.

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I do not see many people OC. I am aware that most criminals if not all will hide their guns.

It does not mean that a felon would not do it. A felon cannot get a CC permit.We all know that you can OC and you do NOT have to show ID. So what better way for a felon to carry where the cop has absolutely no justifiable reason to stop them and demand ID. All he could do is strike up a conversation and ask questions that did not need to be answered.

So we cannot conclude that felons do not OC. This is absolutely a viable option. We witnessed here tonight that a man had a gun and the cop was powerless to stop him and check him out with the exception of the vehicle tag.

The cop made an attempt to be sure the guy was legal and did the right thing by letting him walk. There is no harm in asking a question.