Case for the Model 29 Smith

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curtm1911 wrote:

I own a Ruger Redhawk in .44 magnum, 5 1/2 inch barrel in blue. It has a trigger pull as sweet as any Smith 29 I have ever shot. Quality is first rate, the only thing I changed was the grips, Pachmyers. I would put it up against anything out there. It is STRONG and can be taken down to bare frame with no problem. Yes, I have seen Rugers with horrible triggers, maybe I got lucky with mine, but I am very happy with it and it shoots anything I put in it. I got it two years ago and it was a good deal, $475 out the door, brand new too. Bottom right in the picture. Not too bad to carry either.

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<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

Beautiful.

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Thanks imperialism2024, I like it a lot and it is great fun to shoot too. Kinda got that "Dirty Harry" look to it.

http://photobucket.com/firearms to see more goodies

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Beautiful Weapon!

A couple of points to make it a little more carry friendly. Enclosed is a picture of my current carry weapon. Instead of adjustable sights, I went for the Cylinder and Slide Extreme fixed sights, set for my load (Winchester silvertip (210gr@1250fps) at 15 yards. Front sight is SDM gold bead sight. Cylinder has been "dehorned" at factory. Hammer Spur is removed, trigger job (god what a wonderful trigger!) and the trigger smoothed and blued. Grips are Hogue square butt emulators. 5" barrel. Weapon shoots 2" at 50 yards (Yes, I said yards).

These little changestransform it from a "regular" revolver to a no snag, utterly reliable, Monster carry weapon.

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curtm1911: Looks even better in high-res. I have one with a 7.5" barrel, and have been meaning to get Pachmyers for it... though the factory wood grips look so nice it'll be a shame to change 'em.

I've been contemplating for a while whether a pair of Redhawks with 5.5" barrels would be too gratuitous to carry...

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imperialism2024:

I have big hands and the wood grips, as nice as they look, are just too small for me, too much roll on firing. The Pachmyers solved that little problem nicely for me. Here is a picture of my Redhawks's Little Brother.

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Interesting---that Ruger almost looks like my Colt Peacekeeper. I'm with wheelgunner, I'll use an auto as a backup when carrying two guns. But for just one gun, I've got a Colt Peacekeeper, which is a rough version of the Colt Trooper Mk. 5.

I was out shooting with a friend today and we were hitting three and fourinch groups at a measured 200 yards with this .357 of mine. The only other gun I really want is a Colt Anaconda with a 6 inch barrel! No jams, no hangups, just deadly accuracy and absolute reliabilty.

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Caliber? Compared to a 9mm, the 0.429 bullet is already expanded when it hits the perp. Then it opens, violently.

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I like revolvers, and I don't doubt the massive power of a .44 magnum, but this statement about the 9mm is unfounded. A 9mm JHP will expand quite a bit over .429", and if it doesn't, you're using some garbage JHPs. A good 9mm JHP should expand into the .7" range, plus or minus a bit depending upon the bullet. People don't bother to actually look at data though, they just assume things. There is practically zero difference in expansion between the 9mm and the .40S&W for example. Some .45ACP rounds do expand to larger diameters than the 9mm, but it's often still only a difference of about .1" or so.

The .44 Magnum and special may expand to diameters somewhere between the 9mm and the .45ACP, but considering the tiny difference to begin with, that doesn't say too much. Check out these real tests.


For example, this .44 Mag 240gr Hydrashock only averaged .556":

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal%20240%20grain%20Hydra-Shok.html


9mm 124gr Speer Gold Dot from a 3.5" BBL, average expansion of .6934":

http://www.brassfetcher.com/124gr%20+P%20Speer%20Gold%20Dot.html


.44 Mag 240gr Speer Gold Dot, expanded to .73":

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Speer240grainJHP.html


9mm 124gr Remington Golden Saber, average expansion of .684":

http://www.brassfetcher.com/124%20grain%20+P%20Remington%20Golden%20Saber.html


.44 Mag 180gr Hornady XTP, expanded to .743" (Look at how nasty the inside of that block looks! Ouch!!):

http://www.brassfetcher.com/180grHorn44mag.html


9mm 100gr Corbon PowRball, the lower end of 9mm expansion at .598" (look at the nice explosive entry though):

http://www.brassfetcher.com/100%20grain%20+P%20Cor-Bon%20Pow'R%20Ball.html


Again, there is a world of difference in a 9mm and .44 Magnum, but please get the facts right before claiming something like this. As you can see, the expansion can actually be incredibly similar. The largest difference in favor of the .44 Magnum was only .145", which is quite small. The largest difference in favor of the 9mm was .1374", almost exactly the same as the other difference! There is only .0076" between these differences, lol, 7.6 hundredths of an inch. This group of rounds was small, but it proves my point pretty clearly I think. You probably do get better expansion, by about 1/20th of an inch if you're using good ammo.

People love to think that because the diameter is larger to begin with that it, by laws of physics, MUST expand to a larger diameter. Without actually verifying this, you're simply spreading misinformation though.

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Actually, your examples prove my point. In every case, when the 44 was moving as fast or faster than the Little Luger, it penetrated more, expanded more,as well assending a violent shock wave through the target, just what you want if you are an expert and you need to stop a bad guy bigger than you or you need to punch through cover to get him, or even his clothes. All without worrying about bullet profile or spring pressure. Please note the 9, 10, 11 inch penetration levels of the Little Luger. Most police depts would reject these rounds on this criteria alone. As to expansion tests, see below. You can throttle down the 44 to whatever you want, even to the Little Luger level with 44 specials or crank it up to more powerful levels as you wish, all without worrying about jams or feeding or stovepipes or failure to eject or magazines being dirty or ..... If you really want a smaller caliber, how about an 8 shot Smith 357 magnum?

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Expansion tests

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Actually, your examples prove my point. In every case, when the 44 was moving as fast or faster than the Little Luger, it penetrated more, expanded more, as well as sending a violent shock wave through the target, just what you want if you are an expert and you need to stop a bad guy bigger than you or you need to punch through cover to get him, or even his clothes. All without worrying about bullet profile or spring pressure. Please note the 9, 10, 11 inch penetration levels of the Little Luger. Most police depts would reject these rounds on this criteria alone. As to expansion tests, see below. You can throttle down the 44 to whatever you want, even to the Little Luger level with 44 specials or crank it up to more powerful levels as you wish, all without worrying about jams or feeding or stovepipes or failure to eject or magazines being dirty or ..... If you really want a smaller caliber, how about an 8 shot Smith 357 magnum?

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I don't see how what I wrote and linked proved anything more than exactly what I said. If you looked at the tests and what I wrote, yes the .44 Magnum did expand more than the 9mm in some cases. At the same time, the 9mm expanded more than the .44 Magnum in other cases. Again, the biggest difference in either case was a bit over .1", which is tiny. As in, the 9mm rounds that expanded more than the .44 Mag num did so by the same amount that the .44 Magnum rounds that expanded more than the 9mm did. The post was simply to show that a .44 Magnum is in no way an "already expanded 9mm." How did what I wrote "prove" what you said? I like how you refer to a 9mm as "the Little Luger" btw.

That post was in response to your statement about the .44 Magnum being an "already expanded 9mm." I quoted that specific statement and addressed it. I did not address velocity or bullet mass. My only point was that they actually expand VERY similarly. Did you actually look at what I wrote or did you just glance at it?

Also note that I specifically stated that the 9x19mm is nowhere near the power of a .44 Magnum, to claim otherwise is ridiculous. I simply addressed your unfounded claim that a .44Mag is an "already expanded 9mm."


As far as the 9, 10 and 11 inch penetration you spoke of, many of those tests were done using a Glock 26 with a 3.5" barrel, or involved very lightweight bullets. The Glock 26 will give significantly lower velocities than something like a Glock 17 with a 4.5" barrel. That's why I mentioned that it was fired out of a 3.5" barrel right above the link I provided.

Btw, the second 9mm test I linked (The on involving the 124gr +P Golden Sabre) had an average penetration of 12.6". The lowest penetration in the string was 12.0" and the highest was 13.3", so you sort of pulled those numbers off of the lowest penetration performance you saw within the tests I linked. I pulled my numbers for the .44 Magnum off of the highest expansion numbers I found. There are quite a few hollow point 9mm rounds on that same website penetrating over 14", which is more than adequate.

That picture you posted has no measurements btw, it just shows a bunch of expanded hollow points. I'm not sure how it's a "test," if it is it seems to lack data.


Anyway, I'm not so stupid as to think that a 9mm is as powerful as a .44 Magnum. The 9mm can reach about 500ft.lb. in its most powerful forms. A .44 Magnum can reach like 1500ft.lb., lol. I simply addressed your unfounded claims on expansion. I have no clue how in the world you think I "proved your point" about the .44Mag being an "already expanded 9mm." Especially when a number of the 9mm rounds actually expanded more than the .44 Magnum rounds by around .1" as well. My point was simply that in terms of expansion there's very little difference.

I did not address your other points about the .44 Magnum.

I am also quite aware that you can shoot much lower powered rounds by either reloading or simply using .44 Specials. I like this caliber, I just don't like unfounded claims. I have nothing against a .357 Magnum either, and I would love to have one of the 8 shot Smith and Wesson Performance Center revolvers as well as a S&W .44 Magnum revolver. They're beautiful IMO.


Oh and also, I have never had a single jam, stovepipe, etc. with my Glock 17. Never, in the entire time I've owned it, has a round failed to feed, fire or eject.

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Yes please, show some dimensions on these, I once turned a 9MM reload with a 115 grn Sierra JHP to .825 expansion and it still weighed around 100 grns., shot into 1 gal. jug of water, can't remember the powder though, must be gettin a bit old.

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Sorry to do this, but this is a test post, my computer is having some issues when I post pics, please bear with me on this. It maybe time to introduce Mr. Redhawk to Infernal Machine

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curtm1911 wrote:

Sorry to do this, but this is a test post, my computer is having some issues when I post pics, please bear with me on this. It maybe time to introduce Mr. Redhawk to Infernal Machine

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Suuuure... test post... you just want to show it off some more

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To: Weak 9mm (good name btw)



Slow down there bud!
:shock:


In my original post I laid outmost ofthe reasons for a revolver over an auto, and the N frame Smith over most revolvers. The main reason for a revolveris simply reliability. It simply works every time. It is great that you have a 9mm that you like, but a MAJORITY of people go to the range and experience minor malfunctions with their weapons. This is why ALL the Firearms Academies, from Massad's Lethal Force to Seattle Firearms teach malfunction drills. Malfunctions are most likely to happen when you least want them too. Go to the range sometime and TRY to make your weapon malfunction (limp wrist or hip shooting weak handed). You learn a lot about your pistol that way, Sort of like "Owning your own shadow".

The auto pistol has not turned out to be the Holy Grail that some have said it would be. For one thing, the higher pass rates by cops on their qualification courses have come at the expense of lower power (357 Magnum to 9mm for example). This combined with the higher magazine capacity has led the phenomena of "Mass shooting" we see where cops blaze away 20 to 100 rounds. There is a court case in the paper now detailing a man in New York who had a wallet in his hand and the officers put 56 rounds into him (and the surrounding area) before they stopped shooting). This was completely unknown before.

Several Studies of police shootings have found that the advent of Auto pistols has NOT had an increase in lethality or accuracy by police. If fact they found that there were more peripheral hits by police officers rather than center of mass hits in auto pistols vs revolvers.

So the advent of Autopistols has resulted in a decrease in actual hits, less hits in center of mass when they do hit, the phenomena mass shooting, and a reduction in power per cartridge fired. The advantage ofthe Autopistolslarger magazine has almost NEVER been a factor. See Thomas J. Aventi, Officer involved shootings, What We Didn't Know Has Hurt Us.).


Further (an more to the point we were discussing, bullet nose profile has to conform closely to the feed ramp our the weapon jams. Unfortunately, the slick profile needed to ensure feeding tends to fail to expand unless it has sufficient velocity behind it. Clothing clogs the hollowpoint and causes the bullet to act as a hardball round, even if it does open beautifully in jelly. This is why the 357 Magnum round is the top performing antipersonnel round in the world. It's profile does not have to feed at all, merely open, so the bullet designers can concentrate on getting it to open in clothing rather than worry about feeding. A large caliber weapon is already "expanded" to a larger diameter when compared to the 0.355 bullet and carries its higher energy and weight into the body with less blast, flash, damage to gun and shooter. In the case of the 357 Mag, it has so much energy that even after going through a heavy coat and layers of clothing, it still is moving fast enough to open violently.


In fact, for the 9mm round to achieve a rating of 85% one shot stops or better, the 9mm has to be loaded to +p or +p+ levels (Street Stoppers, Page 170). In other words pushing the cartridge to it's absolute maximum, LEAVING ASIDE THE QUESTION OF BULLET PROFILE OR RELIABILITY WITH THAT LOAD. +p+ and +p ammo is expensive and hard on the weapon. Who is going to put 200 rounds through it at $25.00 per 20 just to do function tests? If it jams, was it the gun? The shooter? The hold? The stance? Who knows? 90% of people who carry(and this includes MOST cops) are not gun guys. They pass their qualifications and that is that.

Larger calibers, such as the 41 Mag or 44 mag actually do a better job than the 357 Magnum in stopping, UNLESS they are loaded with non-expanding bullets or bullets designed for hunting. By the time they have expanded, they have passed out of the person. This is why almost all ammunition manufactures have developed a 3/4 defensive load for the 44 magnum. Winchesters 210 Silvertip, Cor-bon's 165 hollowpoint, Remington's 180 halfjacket hollowpointare all examples ofa mid or light weight for caliber, violently opening hollowpoint loaded so all the energy is dumped into the body. You are right that they must be used by a expert, but the 44 Mag can be loaded with the 44 special, the .357 with the .38 Special for cheap practice without loss in reliability, (an in the case of the 44 special it is a good weapon for weapon for women or those who don't want a magnum); something an auto pistol cannot do.

Now, directlyto your point about the difference between a .355 bullet and a .429 bullet, I don't hear you desiring to carry a .25 caliber. Why? Because the facts would show that the .25 caliber, at the same velocity as the 9mm, is a lousy stopper. Well,If you take the 0.355 bullet and subtract the 0.074 you say is the minor difference between the 9mm and the .44 you get 0.28 caliber or just under. I bet though that you are not going to switch to a.25 (or .28)caliberanytime soon. Caliber, bullet weight, bullet construction, profile, and velocity all make a difference, but in caliber small differences mean a lot.

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Wheelgunner wrote:

To: Weak 9mm (good name btw)



Slow down there bud!
:shock:


In my original post I laid outmost ofthe reasons for a revolver over an auto, and the N frame Smith over most revolvers. The main reason for a revolveris simply reliability. It simply works every time. It is great that you have a 9mm that you like, but a MAJORITY of people go to the range and experience minor malfunctions with their weapons. This is why ALL the Firearms Academies, from Massad's Lethal Force to Seattle Firearms teach malfunction drills. Malfunctions are most likely to happen when you least want them too. Go to the range sometime and TRY to make your weapon malfunction (limp wrist or hip shooting weak handed). You learn a lot about your pistol that way, Sort of like "Owning your own shadow".

The auto pistol has not turned out to be the Holy Grail that some have said it would be. For one thing, the higher pass rates by cops on their qualification courses have come at the expense of lower power (357 Magnum to 9mm for example). This combined with the higher magazine capacity has led the phenomena of "Mass shooting" we see where cops blaze away 20 to 100 rounds. There is a court case in the paper now detailing a man in New York who had a wallet in his hand and the officers put 56 rounds into him (and the surrounding area) before they stopped shooting). This was completely unknown before.

Several Studies of police shootings have found that the advent of Auto pistols has NOT had an increase in lethality or accuracy by police. If fact they found that there were more peripheral hits by police officers rather than center of mass hits in auto pistols vs revolvers.

So the advent of Autopistols has resulted in a decrease in actual hits, less hits in center of mass when they do hit, the phenomena mass shooting, and a reduction in power per cartridge fired. The advantage ofthe Autopistolslarger magazine has almost NEVER been a factor. See Thomas J. Aventi, Officer involved shootings, What We Didn't Know Has Hurt Us.).


Further (an more to the point we were discussing, bullet nose profile has to conform closely to the feed ramp our the weapon jams. Unfortunately, the slick profile needed to ensure feeding tends to fail to expand unless it has sufficient velocity behind it. Clothing clogs the hollowpoint and causes the bullet to act as a hardball round, even if it does open beautifully in jelly. This is why the 357 Magnum round is the top performing antipersonnel round in the world. It's profile does not have to feed at all, merely open, so the bullet designers can concentrate on getting it to open in clothing rather than worry about feeding. A large caliber weapon is already "expanded" to a larger diameter when compared to the 0.355 bullet and carries its higher energy and weight into the body with less blast, flash, damage to gun and shooter. In the case of the 357 Mag, it has so much energy that even after going through a heavy coat and layers of clothing, it still is moving fast enough to open violently.


In fact, for the 9mm round to achieve a rating of 85% one shot stops or better, the 9mm has to be loaded to +p or +p+ levels (Street Stoppers, Page 170). In other words pushing the cartridge to it's absolute maximum, LEAVING ASIDE THE QUESTION OF BULLET PROFILE OR RELIABILITY WITH THAT LOAD. +p+ and +p ammo is expensive and hard on the weapon. Who is going to put 200 rounds through it at $25.00 per 20 just to do function tests? If it jams, was it the gun? The shooter? The hold? The stance? Who knows? 90% of people who carry(and this includes MOST cops) are not gun guys. They pass their qualifications and that is that.

Larger calibers, such as the 41 Mag or 44 mag actually do a better job than the 357 Magnum in stopping, UNLESS they are loaded with non-expanding bullets or bullets designed for hunting. By the time they have expanded, they have passed out of the person. This is why almost all ammunition manufactures have developed a 3/4 defensive load for the 44 magnum. Winchesters 210 Silvertip, Cor-bon's 165 hollowpoint, Remington's 180 halfjacket hollowpointare all examples ofa mid or light weight for caliber, violently opening hollowpoint loaded so all the energy is dumped into the body. You are right that they must be used by a expert, but the 44 Mag can be loaded with the 44 special, the .357 with the .38 Special for cheap practice without loss in reliability, (an in the case of the 44 special it is a good weapon for weapon for women or those who don't want a magnum); something an auto pistol cannot do.

Now, directlyto your point about the difference between a .355 bullet and a .429 bullet, I don't hear you desiring to carry a .25 caliber. Why? Because the facts would show that the .25 caliber, at the same velocity as the 9mm, is a lousy stopper. Well,If you take the 0.355 bullet and subtract the 0.074 you say is the minor difference between the 9mm and the .44 you get 0.28 caliber or just under. I bet though that you are not going to switch to a.25 (or .28)caliberanytime soon. Caliber, bullet weight, bullet construction, profile, and velocity all make a difference, but in caliber small differences mean a lot.

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A. I was never going "fast." I'm not sure how you thought that.

B. +P and "+P+" rounds are NOT bad for a Glock 17. It will shoot them all day long.

C. Feed reliability is not an issue with any quality ammunition in that gun, none. I often use Federal HST's, which have an incredibly wide hollow point opening. I've yet to have any failures with those either. I understand that you can purposely induce failures. You could purposely give yourself a squib and then pull the trigger again with a full power load lined up. You'll learn a lot about your gun that way too. Really, try it.

D. I pay $15 to $20 for 50 rounds of +P or "+P+" ammunition from Winchester (Ranger 115gr, 1335fps) and Federal (9BPLE "+P+" 115gr 1300fps, 124gr +P HST 1200fps, 124gr "+P+" Hydrashok 1170fps). I certainly don't pay $25 for 20 rounds. You were WAY off on that one.

E. You failed to address any of the real points that were brought up and resorted to telling me random crap I already know. Then you used 2nd grade arithmetic to try to prove a point everyone in here already knows. We all know the bullet diameters before expansion. That's not the point that was brought up and you know it.

F. My post, again, said NOTHING about power (Well, except for the fact that that I said the .44 Magnum is significantly more powerful). All it talked about was expansion. You've ignored all that and gone off on this tangent about stopping power and unexpanded bullet diameters. Then you show me a picture of a 9mm round next to a .44 Magnum round. Again, you're just trying to change the subject so that you can still feel smarter than somebody else by "teaching" them a bunch of crap they already know.

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Again, there is a world of difference in a 9mm and .44 Magnum, but please get the facts right before claiming something like this. As you can see, the expansion can actually be incredibly similar. The largest difference in favor of the .44 Magnum was only .145", which is quite small. The largest difference in favor of the 9mm was .1374", almost exactly the same as the other difference! There is only .0076" between these differences, lol, 7.6 hundredths of an inch. This group of rounds was small, but it proves my point pretty clearly I think. You probably do get better expansion, by about 1/20th of an inch if you're using good ammo.

People love to think that because the diameter is larger to begin with that it, by laws of physics, MUST expand to a larger diameter. Without actually verifying this, you're simply spreading misinformation though.


A. Only in your cherry picked examples. The 210 grain silvertip expands to 0.081 in the picture I haveposted in my answer. Compared to the 100 grain "powerball" that's twice the weight, nearly twice the energy and more expansion (0.598 in 9mm to 0.81 in 44). It isn't just how wide the bullet goes, but ALL factors.

B. Please list the loads that go to 500ft lbs in a 9mm. The 90grain PowerBall only goes to 467ft lbs, the most powerful of the Cor-bon Loads.

C. As anyone can see from visiting the Cor-bon Website, their loads are $22.00 per 20 rounds. Midway sells Federal Permium Personal defense ammo in 9mm for $20.00 per box, Winchester Silvertip for $36.00 per box. This is without shipping. Retail is even worse. Could you pleasedirect us to the magical land you know of with +p and +p+ ammo for $15.00 abox of 50.

D. Again, I think it is GREAT that you like your gun and think it is reliable. Really, I am very happy for you. Again, so even you can understand, MOST people have issues with unreliability in their autopistols, which is why the aftermarket is full of items to increase relaibility in their autopistols, Magazines, barrels, guide rods, ejectors, extractors, springs, shock buffs, folllowers, etc.

E. People love to think that because the diameter is larger to begin with that it, by laws of physics, MUST expand to a larger diameter. Without actually verifying this, you're simply spreading misinformation though.

Sigh. The point is that a bullet is already a larger diameter before it expands, so even if it fails to expand, it will cause more damage and deliver more energy to the target than a narrower bullet. Because it does not have to feed through a magazine, slide up a feed ramp, etc it is more likely TO expand than a auto pistol round, leaving aside the clothing issue.

As to verifying this, you would have to do a lot of firing into a medium to determine expansion averages. Luckly, both the book StreetStoppers and Steves Pages has just such a databases. http://stevespages.com

You can do the math yourself, weak9mm. As to the book, you will have to buy it and read it yourself.

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B. Please list the loads that go to 500ft lbs in a 9mm. The 90grain PowerBall only goes to 467ft lbs, the most powerful of the Cor-bon Loads.

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Now first of all, let's review what I said:

"The 9mm can reach about 500ft.lb. in its most powerful forms."

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=119

115gr Gold Dot, cruising along at 1415fps and 511ft.lb. out of a Glock 17 (4.5" BBL), 1395fps out of a Glock 19 (4" BBL), G Money. I don't pull shit out of thin air like you do.

Take a good look at that price while you're in there btw. Not exactly $25/20rds. It's not where I get my ammo, but it's still way less than what you keep saying good 9mm ammo costs. I have continued to drive your claims into the ground, because I'm not a liar. You challenge everything I say, yet time and time again you're proven blatantly wrong with direct evidence.

A. Only in your cherry picked examples. The 210 grain silvertip expands to 0.081 in the picture I have posted in my answer. Compared to the 100 grain "powerball" that's twice the weight, nearly twice the energy and more expansion (0.598 in 9mm to 0.81 in 44). It isn't just how wide the bullet goes, but ALL factors.

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First of all, once again you're ignoring what I said and adding in other factors. I only addressed your idiotic claims on expansion, the rest you're just adding in to make yourself feel smart. Everybody in here knows that expansion is not the only performance number. I've told you this myself repeatedly, but again, I was talking only about expansion.

My tests certainly weren't cherry picked, if they had been I'd have gone straight for Federal's HST and provided nothing else. I directly linked each test (Something you've failed to do) and you can easily look at all of the tests on there and on other websites. You won't find anything but evidence proving you wrong. It's just not uncommon at all for a 9mm to reach the kind of expansion numbers I provided (ie - the .7" range).

I'm "cherry picking?!" :uhoh:

In the above quote you picked the lowest expansion numbers I linked in 9mm form and then provided the highest expansion numbers you could find in .44 Magnum form (With no direct link provided either, although I do believe it's certainly possible). The other 9mm bullets I linked were in the .7" range, but you conveniently left those out in your comparison. Instead you picked the one that expanded to .598" and then wrote in the largest expansion for a .44Mag bullet that you could find. I can do that too, watch this:

The 9mm expands to .771", while the .44 Magnum expands to .556". This is a difference of .215" in favor of the 9mm. So, using your logic, the 9mm has more expansion than the .44 Magnum. See how easy that was? Nothing about that was bullshit either. The .556" average expansion for the .44 Magnum Hydrashok can clearly be seen in the link I provided further up on this page. The .771" expansion (And 13.5" penetration just so you know, a bit more than your "cherry picked" claims of "9, 10 and 11 inches," wouldn't you say?) of Federal's 147gr 9mm HST (Which I can buy in +P form for a whopping $19.95/50rds) can clearly be seen on page 6 of this Wound Ballistics Seminar:

http://www.le.atk.com/pdf/LosAngelesWBW.pdf

Do you still not see the failure in your logic? One example taking the worst expansion results you find in one caliber and the best you find in another doesn't cut it. This is the reason I provided multiple links to multiple tests that showed a wide range of expansions in BOTH calibers. TO SHOW YOU THE NUMBERS WERE NOT "CHERRY PICKED."

Oh and btw, .081" is HORRIBLE expansion for a .44 Magnum. In fact, it's massive negative expansion, ie - compression...

And for the 100th time, I was never talking about stopping power, penetration, bullet weight or velocity. I did mention penetration in this post because you brought up some cherry picked claims on 9mm penetration, and I mentioned bullet weight in the post with the links simply to differentiate between rounds. I was only addressing your false claims on expansion, which were obviously a result of ignorance. Now that you've been proven wrong about what I was trying to tell you, you're resorting to childish tactics to feel smart. Things like acting like I'm arguing that the 9mm is "more powerful," cherry picking from single tests (The .44Mag numbers you provided are unsubstantiated btw), going to random websites for terrible pricing on Personal Defense ammunition when I clearly stated Federal, Speer and Winchester Law Enforcement ammunition.

Again, I do NOT lie, cheat or steal. I do not pull shit out of thin air. I don't change things to make "my caliber" look good. I just told you that your claims are wrong and did so with substantial evidence. You just can't accept that for whatever reason. You have to "win" by changing the argument, changing what you said, and bending the truth through your biased "examples." You don't provide multiple numbers or direct links, you just give these general links because you know you're wrong, period. Your statement was that a .44 Magnum is an already expanded 9mm. That is WRONG.

C. As anyone can see from visiting the Cor-bon Website, their loads are $22.00 per 20 rounds. Midway sells Federal Permium Personal defense ammo in 9mm for $20.00 per box, Winchester Silvertip for $36.00 per box. This is without shipping. Retail is even worse. Could you please direct us to the magical land you know of with +p and +p+ ammo for $15.00 a box of 50.

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It's not magic, G, I buy them for that amount of money. And hell no I'm not going to tell an ass like you where to get cheap law enforcement ammo. Anyone that wants to know can PM me, lord knows I've told a few folks. Again, this is what I pay:

Federal 9BPLE 115r +P+ - $14.95 / 50rds
Winchester Ranger 115gr +P+ - $19.95 / 50rds
Federal Tactical HST (124gr or 147gr) +P - $19.95 / 50rds

I buy brand new 12ga Winchester Ranger Low Recoil 1oz. Slugs, Federal Tactical Low Recoil Hydrashok 1oz Slugs and Federal Tactical Low Recoil 9 Pellet 00 Buckshot with "flitecontrol" wad at $15 to $16 for 25 shells. Are you going to call be a liar on that one too?

Don't pull everyone else into your little argument either. It's not "us," it's you that wants to know. I guarantee you if you ask a number of people in here they will tell you the exact same thing. You simply don't know what you're talking about and can't admit it. Again, I don't lie, period. I have purchased the ammunition for that price time and time again. It's not a one time deal at some gun show or some other bullshit. It's that price, always, from where I always purchase brand new Law Enforcement ammunition from Winchester, Federal and occasionally Speer.

D. Again, I think it is GREAT that you like your gun and think it is reliable. Really, I am very happy for you. Again, so even you can understand, MOST people have issues with unreliability in their autopistols, which is why the aftermarket is full of items to increase relaibility in their autopistols, Magazines, barrels, guide rods, ejectors, extractors, springs, shock buffs, folllowers, etc.

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Again, I was just pointing out the error in your statements.

E. People love to think that because the diameter is larger to begin with that it, by laws of physics, MUST expand to a larger diameter. Without actually verifying this, you're simply spreading misinformation though. "

Sigh. The point is that a bullet is already a larger diameter before it expands, so even if it fails to expand, it will cause more damage and deliver more energy to the target than a narrower bullet. Because it does not have to feed through a magazine, slide up a feed ramp, etc it is more likely TO expand than a auto pistol round, leaving aside the clothing issue.

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Then next time, say that. That is quite different from what you said here:

Caliber? Compared to a 9mm, the 0.429 bullet is already expanded when it hits the perp.

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You can do the math yourself, weak9mm. As to the book, you will have to buy it and read it yourself.

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Again with the making yourself feel smart. You're the one ignoring the numbers and changing what you said. You're also acting like my argument somehow includes things I keep telling you I'm not talking about. I have done the reading on many calibers, you on the other hand only do reading on the calibers you use apparently. Otherwise you'd never have made the statement about a .44 Magnum bullet being "an already expanded 9mm bullet."

Also, everything I've told you I've substantiated. Nothing you've said in relation to my correction to your original statement has been substantiated. You provide general links and tell me I'll have to go "do research" myself. I've obviously already done the research, as I'm the one providing you with all of the information. You're so blown away by the fact that I can get excellent ammunition for $15 to $20 for 50rds that you basically imply that I'm a liar (Hmmmm, are you regretting your choice of caliber or something? :lol: ). You're also so stubborn that you resort to "cherry picking" results in the very same post in which you call me a "cherry picker." These tactics really are pathetic.

You can't win an argument that you lost from the beginning. You should have just left it alone, as I keep proving your responses to the corrections I presented wrong.



Look at what we have here... Hmm, it seems to be two invoices.... Oh man, look at that, I paid even less than I thought for that ammo!!!

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Weak9mm, you are right. Man you sure showed me. Wow.

And you can get really cheap ammo! Good for you! Good job! Right on! Look at those receipts! You sure showed me!Millions of averagepeople will buy from you now instead of their Gun shops, Midway, Cor-bon or Retail. They will buy from you via their own special PM to you! You the man. You just blow Ammoman.com and other discounters right out of the water!

And I will even take back my comment that a non-expanded 44 is like a 9mm expanded. I was wrong. Those 9mm bullets REALLY Expand! WOW!

As to pulling stuff out of the air, please ignore all the websites, books, articles and studies I referenced. You are right, absolutely. I feel bad.

And I am sorry I made you feel like it was an Us verses You situation. Clearly that moved you outside your comfort zone. I want you to feel special in this big fraternity of gun brotherhood. Hug!

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How bout getting back on subject shall we?

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Interestingly enough I saw a used S&W Model 29 the other day that I liked a lot. If my CC permit is approved and comes back reasonably soon I may just snag one. I certainly have nothing against it, it should be a great revolver.

Just real quick for you, in order, from each consecutive post in which you're saying I've somehow claimed or even implied that ft.lbs. are a measure of "terminal ballistics:"

I like revolvers, and I don't doubt the massive power of a .44 magnum, but this statement about the 9mm is unfounded. A 9mm JHP will expand quite a bit over .429", and if it doesn't, you're using some garbage JHPs. A good 9mm JHP should expand into the .7" range, plus or minus a bit depending upon the bullet.

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Also note that I specifically stated that the 9x19mm is nowhere near the power of a .44 Magnum, to claim otherwise is ridiculous. I simply addressed your unfounded claim that a .44Mag is an "already expanded 9mm."

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F. My post, again, said NOTHING about power (Well, except for the fact that that I said the .44 Magnum is significantly more powerful). All it talked about was expansion.

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And for the 100th time, I was never talking about stopping power, penetration, bullet weight or velocity. I did mention penetration in this post because you brought up some cherry picked claims on 9mm penetration, and I mentioned bullet weight in the post with the links simply to differentiate between rounds. I was only addressing your false claims on expansion, which were obviously a result of ignorance.

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