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Thread: Trespass and stand your ground.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Saw this in the MCRGO Q&A section. Is this a true statement? If you went into a mall and didn't know it was gun free and you used your firearmdo you loss your "stand your ground" defense and immunity to civil action? I would never had thought about this. Comments????

    Q:
    My CPL has the box labeled "Exempt from Pistol Free zones MCL28.425o(4)" checked. How does this affect my carrying my firearm in an establishment which has a "No Firearms Allowed" posting?

    A:
    Even those who are exempt from the Pistol Free Zones established in the statute must still honor the wishes of any party in control of real estate regarding the possession of weapons on the premises. If you disregard a sign or a verbal or written notice that guns are not allowed in a particular location, your legal status is that of trespasser. One of the results is that you are no longer covered by the "Stand Your Ground" law that went into effect late last year. The Stand Your Ground rule allows individuals to use proportional force in self defense without having to retreat, so long as they are in a place where they have a legal right to be. Even a CPL holder who is exempt from the Pistol Free Zones loses this legal protection while carrying in violation of a posted notice that guns are not allowed on the premises.

    A quick review of proportionality: Any use of a firearm will probably be considered an application of deadly force. Deadly force is only appropriate in self defense when it is proportional to the threat. So, a firearm may only be used to prevent death, great bodily harm that could lead to death, or rape. Deadly force in defense of others is allowed so long as the person being defended would have been justified in using deadly force to protect him or herself. Think of yourself as "stepping into the shoes" of the person you are defending. Ask yourself the question, "If I were that person, would I be justified in shooting?" If the answer is yes, your discharge of your firearm will be considered an action taken in the legally protected defense of another.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Some additional food for thought. I talked with a firearm attorney about this topic. That is, if you use your firearm in a place that has a policy of no firearms, for example a mall, it is possible that you could lose your stand your ground defense and civil liability protection[/b]. In other words if you were to use your firearm for self-defense in one of these places you would have an obligation to retreat and you could be sued in a civil court. The reason is because you were there unlawfully because you were trespassing.

    You could be in violation of trespass even though the property had no signs up warning you of firearm prohibition. The lawyer related a case he heard about out east where a man was convicted on a firearm charge, even thought the mall had no signs on the door, but did have a information brochure at the information desk that said weapons are not allowed. A jury found that that brochure was notice enough. I can’t cite the case or the details and I heard it 10th hand and it was not in Michigan, so take it for what it is.

    If this is true, taken to an extreme, then if you stood your ground in a parking lot of a property that prohibited firearms, technically you could lose your stand your ground defense and civil liability protection. This means that there is a potential that youcould lose your stand your ground defense on any private property in the state and this defense would onlybe valid on public property. Your only defense is that you were not aware of the firearm prohibition, but as seen above that may not be defense enough.

    As always each situation is different each case would be evaluated based on evidence. I’m only bringing it up as a cautionary tale. It is food for thought.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    If you can be held liable for defending yourself, then the property owner should be liable for denying you the ability or lawful right to defend yourself.

    There have been some attempts in a few states to pass legislation making establishers of gun-free zones liable for damages in situations where armed patrons could reasonably have defended themselves. We need to push the notion that if you deny people the tools to defend themselves, you are assuming responsibility for their protection.

    I think it's reasonable to allow property owners who make a real attempt to provide that protection (e.g. armed guards, metal detectors) to get a pass on the liability. Most property owners would find it too expensive to even attempt to protect their patrons -- and even unarmed patrons would find the security too intrusive and annoying -- and would decide that taking down the signs is the cheaper option.

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    You are the one entering the property of another knowingyou are not permitted to be armed.

    Nobody is forcing you to go and if you do it is of your own free will.

    You are big enough to make your own decisions and you can say "No.. I am not going to visit the property"and walk away.

    It is foolish to think that someone else is responsible for you.

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    I agree LEO, I feel like I should be able to post a no weapons sign on my front door, and there is no way I should be responsible for the protection of anybody who chooses to come in. This holds true for private business owners.

    Unless I missed it, I didn't see anything about criminal charges in a "No weapons allowed" business. Are you still ok criminally? If so, I'll take my chances getting sued in civil court. At least I'll still be breathing.

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    SQLtables wrote:
    I agree LEO, I feel like I should be able to post a no weapons sign on my front door, and there is no way I should be responsible for the protection of anybody who chooses to come in. This holds true for private business owners.

    Unless I missed it, I didn't see anything about criminal charges in a "No weapons allowed" business. Are you still ok criminally? If so, I'll take my chances getting sued in civil court. At least I'll still be breathing.
    Per MCRGO:





    Q:
    My CPL has the box labeled "Exempt from Pistol Free zones MCL28.425o(4)" checked. How does this affect my carrying my firearm in an establishment which has a "No Firearms Allowed" posting?

    A:
    Even those who are exempt from the Pistol Free Zones established in the statute must still honor the wishes of any party in control of real estate regarding the possession of weapons on the premises. If you disregard a sign or a verbal or written notice that guns are not allowed in a particular location, your legal status is that of trespasser. One of the results is that you are no longer covered by the "Stand Your Ground" law that went into effect late last year. The Stand Your Ground rule allows individuals to use proportional force in self defense without having to retreat, so long as they are in a place where they have a legal right to be. Even a CPL holder who is exempt from the Pistol Free Zones loses this legal protection while carrying in violation of a posted notice that guns are not allowed on the premises.

    A quick review of proportionality: Any use of a firearm will probably be considered an application of deadly force. Deadly force is only appropriate in self defense when it is proportional to the threat. So, a firearm may only be used to prevent death, great bodily harm that could lead to death, or rape. Deadly force in defense of others is allowed so long as the person being defended would have been justified in using deadly force to protect him or herself. Think of yourself as "stepping into the shoes" of the person you are defending. Ask yourself the question, "If I were that person, would I be justified in shooting?" If the answer is yes, your discharge of your firearm will be considered an action taken in the legally protected defense of another.

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    I know someone who was shoplifting from the mall thay had a ccw and the informatoin with them and the gun the person got catch the people who catch him in the mall didn't know if the mall was a pistol free zone but anyway he only got a misdemeanor for the shoplifting nothing for the gun he had on him but the police returned the gun back to the county and the broad what do you think will happen to him if the mall is a pistol free zone or not but he told him he had a gun and he had CCW information was with him at the time what would had do u know lol

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    eddie vance wrote:
    I know someone who was shoplifting from the mall thay had a ccw and the informatoin with them and the gun the person got catch the people who catch him in the mall didn't know if the mall was a pistol free zone but anyway he only got a misdemeanor for the shoplifting nothing for the gun he had on him but the police returned the gun back to the county and the broad what do you think will happen to him if the mall is a pistol free zone or not but he told him he had a gun and he had CCW information was with him at the time what would had do u know lol
    :?

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    eddie vance wrote:
    I know someone who was shoplifting from the mall thay had a ccw and the informatoin with them and the gun the person got catch the people who catch him in the mall didn't know if the mall was a pistol free zone but anyway he only got a misdemeanor for the shoplifting nothing for the gun he had on him but the police returned the gun back to the county and the broad what do you think will happen to him if the mall is a pistol free zone or not but he told him he had a gun and he had CCW information was with him at the time what would had do u know lol

    Periods, commas, capitalization,.. please...



    I.. think.. you meant...

    I know someone who was shoplifting from the mall. This person had a cpl and the proper identification and was carrying a concealed pistol. This person got caught and the people who caught him in the mall didn't know if the mall was a PFZ. He ended up only being charged with a misdemeanor (shoplifting), and was not charged with any gun crime. Although not charged, his pistol was confiscated and returned to the coutry gun board. What do you think will happen to him if the mall is in fact a PFZ?



    Well, for starters, the mall is NOT a PFZ (as defined by law). He may have been in violation of the owners wishes (this, trespassing), but he did not violate the PFZ Statute. What will happen to him? no clue.

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    swillden wrote:
    [SNIP]

    There have been some attempts in a few states to pass legislation making establishers of gun-free zones liable for damages in situations where armed patrons could reasonably have defended themselves. We need to push the notion that if you deny people the tools to defend themselves, you are assuming responsibility for their protection.

    [SNIP]
    Since someone else resurrected this thread.

    http://www.gunlaws.com/GFZ/GFZ-BillReview.htm

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    PilotPTK wrote:
    eddie vance wrote:
    I know someone who was shoplifting from the mall thay had a ccw and the informatoin with them and the gun the person got catch the people who catch him in the mall didn't know if the mall was a pistol free zone but anyway he only got a misdemeanor for the shoplifting nothing for the gun he had on him but the police returned the gun back to the county and the broad what do you think will happen to him if the mall is a pistol free zone or not but he told him he had a gun and he had CCW information was with him at the time what would had do u know lol

    Periods, commas, capitalization,.. please...



    I.. think.. you meant...

    I know someone who was shoplifting from the mall. This person had a cpl and the proper identification and was carrying a concealed pistol. This person got caught and the people who caught him in the mall didn't know if the mall was a PFZ. He ended up only being charged with a misdemeanor (shoplifting), and was not charged with any gun crime. Although not charged, his pistol was confiscated and returned to the coutry gun board. What do you think will happen to him if the mall is in fact a PFZ?



    Well, for starters, the mall is NOT a PFZ (as defined by law). He may have been in violation of the owners wishes (this, trespassing), but he did not violate the PFZ Statute. What will happen to him? no clue.
    WOW ... I'm impressed. That is a GREAT translation.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    If this is true, taken to an extreme, then if you stood your ground in a parking lot of a property that prohibited firearms, technically you could lose your stand your ground defense and civil liability protection.
    Ok, I can't find it but I KNOW I read this one before. I don't recall the exact wording but it basically said: Parking lots are not considered "On the premises". i.e. the public parking lot at a post office. The building has a no firearm policy, but this does not include the parking lot. IMO..The same rule would apply at any mall parking lot. A single store ban of firearms could not ban an entire lot which it shares with other stores. I will continue to look and try to find the actual cite. (Help me Brian...help,help...me Brian).

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    WARCHILD wrote:
    If this is true, taken to an extreme, then if you stood your ground in a parking lot of a property that prohibited firearms, technically you could lose your stand your ground defense and civil liability protection.
    Ok, I can't find it but I KNOW I read this one before. I don't recall the exact wording but it basically said: Parking lots are not considered "On the premises". i.e. the public parking lot at a post office. The building has a no firearm policy, but this does not include the parking lot. IMO..The same rule would apply at any mall parking lot. A single store ban of firearms could not ban an entire lot which it shares with other stores. I will continue to look and try to find the actual cite. (Help me Brian...help,help...me Brian).
    This would be true. A parking lot is exempt for Concealed carry in CEZ, those areas defined by law, we are not talking about those places.If you werein aparking lot that served a property that banned guns, you may not be protected by the stand your ground law. You would have to make an effort to retreat, etc. Basically the old law kicks in. It does suck.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Ok, now I understand the point. Thanks..

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    Just remember the first two requirements of Stand Your Ground protection"

    1 - You must be in a place where you have a right to be

    2 - You must not be committing any crime

    Carrying in a place where you are prohibited from carrying can cause problems with these two requirements.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    This is the same thing I was asking in this thread.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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