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Thread: Don't bring a knife to a gun fight

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    http://www.local10.com/news/14889339/detail.html

    Interesting twist is that one of the victims is charged with murder because of his involvement in the altercation.

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    DEERFIELD BEACH, Fla. -- [/b]A man is charged with murder in a road rage incident even though police said he didn't pull the trigger.

    The confrontation resulted in the driver's passenger being fatally shot. Police are also charging him with a hate crime because of language the man used during the incident.

    On the afternoon of Dec. 13, Broward Sheriff's Office deputies responded to reports of two men having been shot in the middle of the road and another man standing near them with a gun.

    When BSO deputies arrived at the intersection of Green Road and Powerline Road, they found two men -- Steven Lonzisero, 43, and Edward Borowsky, 28 -- lying in the road bleeding from gunshot wounds. Hygens Labidou, 49, told deputies he shot Borowsky and Lonzisero in a case of road rage.

    Here's what Labidou told deputies happened: While traveling northbound on Powerline Road, all three men were involved in a verbal altercation after Lonzisero, driving a white Ford pickup truck with his 15-year-old daughter and Borowsky inside, accused Labidou of driving poorly.

    The verbal altercation turned violent when Lonzisero stopped his truck at the intersection in front of Labidou's truck, Labidou said. Lonzisero, armed with a knife, got out of his truck and attacked Labidou, who remained in his vehicle, he said.

    Lonzisero and Borowsky pounded on the truck, yelled racial profanities at Labidou and tried to open the door, according to Labidou.

    Fearing for his life, Labidou fired several shots from his handgun, striking both men. They fell to the pavement and Labidou, along with witnesses, dialed 911, he said.

    Lonzisero and Borowsky were transported to North Broward Medical Center, where Borowsky died Monday. BSO investigators have determined that Lonzisero will be charged with felony murder in the death of his companion. Even though he was not the shooter, under Florida law, a person can be charged with murder if someone dies while the accused is committing a felony.

    Because of language Lonzisero used during the incident, he is also being charged with a hate crime.

    Authorities said Labidou had a permit to carry the gun.
    [line]
    Interesting case.

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    HardChrome wrote:
    Interesting twist is that one of the victims is charged with murder because of his involvement in the altercation.
    'Felony murder' rule

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    Interesting twist is that one of the victims is charged with murder because of his involvement in the altercation.
    How did you come up with this:?
    The shooter was the victim!!!!
    So, no the victim is not being charged, he did what he had to.


    [line]





    Steven Lonzisero, 43, and Edward Borowsky, 28 -- lying in the road bleeding from gunshot wounds. Hygens Labidou, 49, told deputies he shot Borowsky and Lonzisero in a case of road rage.

    The verbal altercation turned violent when Lonzisero stopped his truck at the intersection in front of Labidou's truck, Labidou said. Lonzisero, armed with a knife, got out of his truck and attacked Labidou, who remained in his vehicle, he said.

    Lonzisero and Borowsky pounded on the truck, yelled racial profanities at Labidou and tried to open the door, according to Labidou.

    Fearing for his life, Labidou fired several shots from his handgun, striking both men.
    BSO investigators have determined that Lonzisero will be charged with felony murder in the death of his companion. Even though he was not the shooter, under Florida law, a person can be charged with murder if someone dies while the accused is committing a felony.


    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Agent19 wrote:
    Interesting twist is that one of the victims is charged with murder because of his involvement in the altercation.
    How did you come up with this:?
    The shooter was the victim!!!!
    So, no the victim is not being charged, he did what he had to.
    I should have said casualty rather than victim. I was thinking of it from an injury point of view.

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    HardChrome wrote:
    Agent19 wrote:
    Interesting twist is that one of the victims is charged with murder because of his involvement in the altercation.
    How did you come up with this:?
    The shooter was the victim!!!!
    So, no the victim is not being charged, he did what he had to.
    I should have said casualty rather than victim. I was thinking of it from an injury point of view.
    Well fair enough, its just that most of the time language like that is used to try to gloss over the criminal actions that the 'victims' were engaged in. So I guess its kind of a guilt by asscioation thing whenever someone does that.

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    I can't believe this guy had to defend himself because he 'drives poorly.' WTF?? This looks like a case of a couple rednecks bullying someone of another race. I guess they got what they deserve. You just can't pull a knife on someone because they drive like ****. I feel bad for the shooter and for the 15 year old daughter. I hope she doesn't grow up to hate people of different color because of her father's ignorance. But, sadly, she probably will.

    This is just one more reason for me to get my ccw so I can carry in the car. Not that I drive like **** but my wife sure does!!

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    Pauly wrote:
    This looks like a case of a couple rednecks bullying someone of another race. I guess they got what they deserve. You just can't pull a knife on someone because they drive like ****. I feel bad for the shooter and for the 15 year old daughter. I hope she doesn't grow up to hate people of different color because of her father's ignorance. But, sadly, she probably will.

    Congratulations. That's the most assinine thing I've heard in a while. Just because the victims were white, they're automatically "rednecks", and MUST be guilty of something? Guess what? YOU are the racist here. Better call Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton over. Minorities are, apparently, incapable of commiting crimes. What color is the sky in your world?



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    Pauly wrote:
    I can't believe this guy had to defend himself because he 'drives poorly.' _____?? This looks like a case of a couple rednecks bullying someone of another race. I guess they got what they deserve. You just can't pull a knife on someone because they drive like ____. I feel bad for the shooter and for the 15 year old daughter. I hope she doesn't grow up to hate people of different color because of her father's ignorance. But, sadly, she probably will.

    This is just one more reason for me to get my ccw so I can carry in the car. Not that I drive like____ but my wife sure does!!
    Pauly I agree with all you said. It would only have been better is you could have said it with out the 4 letter words, but STILL I agree with you.

    It would be great if we didn't have to carry guns, but there are those out there, and they are the truly scary ones, that don't like your color, or driving, or hair style, or religion and the next thing you know you have to defend yourself.



    Tarzan

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    I was in a simular situation. A man didn't like my driving, blocked the road and stopped my semi. He came over saying he was going to beat the f@%$ out of me.

    I had my .45 in my lap by this time so that was not going to happen. I couldn't fight him with a weapon involved, and I'mvery sure he had a rifle in his pickup.

    It is quite a dilema. If you indicate you have a gun, he will quit trying to get into your vehicle, but if he goes back to his truck and gets a rifle, he will have the advantage.

    I chose to hold the door shut whil agreeing that I was driving too fast for conditions though not exceeding the speed limit. Being agreeable did not work.

    When I ramped up and asked who had elected him sheriff, prosecutor and judge, it seemed to make him start to think a little and eventually cool down.

    My thinking was, that I could not let him return to his vehicle unless I felt the exchange was over, even if I had to call 911 and hold him at gunpoint. I am glad the exchange ended with both of us going our separate ways, miffed but not crazy.

    Usually people can see that I OC and are polite, and I can afford to be generous. Ace

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    A similar case:

    Rare Robbery Case Brings Cries of Racism:

    Three young black men break into a white man's home in rural Northern California. The homeowner shoots two of them to death but it's the surviving black man who is charged with murder.

    In a case that has brought cries of racism from civil rights groups, Renato Hughes Jr., 22, was charged by prosecutors in this overwhelmingly white county under a rarely invoked legal doctrine that could make him responsible for the bloodshed.

    "It was pandemonium" inside the house that night, District Attorney Jon Hopkins said. Hughes was responsible for "setting the whole thing in motion by his actions and the actions of his accomplices."

    Prosecutors said homeowner Shannon Edmonds opened fire Dec. 7 after three young men rampaged through the Clearlake house demanding marijuana and brutally beat his stepson. Rashad Williams, 21, and Christian Foster, 22, were shot in the back. Hughes fled.

    Hughes was charged with first-degree murder under California's Provocative Act doctrine, versions of which have been on the books in many states for generations but are rarely used.

    The Provocative Act doctrine does not require prosecutors to prove the accused intended to kill. Instead, "they have to show that it was reasonably foreseeable that the criminal enterprise could trigger a fatal response from the homeowner," said Brian Getz, a San Francisco defense attorney unconnected to the case.

    The NAACP complained that prosecutors came down too hard on Hughes, who also faces robbery, burglary and assault charges. Prosecutors are not seeking the death penalty.

    The Rev. Amos Brown, head of the San Francisco chapter of the NAACP and pastor at Hughes' church, said the case demonstrates the legal system is racist in remote Lake County, aspiring wine country 100 miles north of San Francisco. The sparsely populated county of 13,000 people is 91 percent white and 2 percent black.

    Brown and other NAACP officials are asking why the homeowner is walking free. Tests showed Edmonds had marijuana and prescription medication in his system the night of the shooting. Edmonds had a prescription for both the pot and the medication to treat depression.

    "This man had no business killing these boys," Brown said. "They were shot in the back. They had fled."

    On Thursday, a judge granted a defense motion for a change of venue. The defense had argued that he would not be able to get a fair trial because of extensive local media coverage and the unlikelihood that Hughes could get a jury of his peers in the county. A new location for the trial will be selected Dec. 14.

    The district attorney said that race played no part in the charges against Hughes and that the homeowner was spared prosecution because of evidence he was defending himself and his family, who were asleep when the assailants barged in at 4 a.m.

    Edmonds' stepson, Dale Lafferty, suffered brain damage from the baseball bat beating he took during the melee. The 19-year-old lives in a rehabilitation center and can no longer feed himself.

    "I didn't do anything wrong. All I did was defend my family and my children's lives," said Edmonds, 33. "I'm sad the kids are dead, I didn't mean to kill them."

    He added: "Race has nothing to do with it other than this was a gang of black people who thought they were going to beat up this white family."

    California's Provocative Act doctrine has primarily been used to charge people whose actions led to shooting deaths.

    However, in one notable case in Southern California in 1999, a man who robbed a family at gunpoint in their home was convicted of murder because a police officer pursuing him in a car chase slammed into another driver in an intersection, killing her.

    Hughes' mother, San Francisco schoolteacher Judy Hughes, said she believes the group didn't intend to rob the family, just buy marijuana. She called the case against her son a "legal lynching."

    "Only God knows what happened in that house," she said. "But this I know: My son did not murder his childhood friends."

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?i...610&page=2

    Your comments?


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    Pauly wrote:
    This looks like a case of a couple rednecks bullying someone of another race. I guess they got what they deserve. You just can't pull a knife on someone because they drive like ****. I feel bad for the shooter and for the 15 year old daughter. I hope she doesn't grow up to hate people of different color because of her father's ignorance. But, sadly, she probably will.

    I agree with spurrit, this is the most idiotic thing I've read on these forums in a while, and that my friend is quite a feat! What do you have to back up your assertion of "redneck," obviously being used in a pejorative sense here? The fact that this happened in the South? The fact that these men were white? The fact that I agree that this was a tragic situation that probably ended justly is completely suffocated by the level of ignorance and intolerance you expressed in your statement.

    It would seem that you, sir, have the issue, be it with race or culture.

    Let me let you in on a little secret about the term "redneck" and what it means to those who it is most often applied. This term, though sullied with negative connotations across the country, describes some of the most honest, hard-working, God-fearing, families in this nation. We "rednecks" are the stewards of one of the richest cultures in this nation, and you have just reduced that population to racist, inbred hillbillies with one stroke of your keyboard. You want to accuse someone of bigotry with an overly generalized statement, but it is you who is bigoted. You know nothing of theheritage you have effaced, and can't begin to understand the level of culture that exists in the American South. You call my people "racist" for displaying our Confederate flags and embracing our heritage. You are the ignorant one.

    I am an American by birth, but I am a Southerner by the grace of God.


    I wonder if our friend Pauly knows Senator Saslaw???

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    Redneck referrs to the sunburned back of the neck farmers got from stoop labor in the sun. It was an economic slur, not racial. Ace

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    From Wiki: Redneck: in modern usage, predominantly refers to a particular stereotype of people who may be found in many regions of the United States. The word can be used either as a pejorative or as a matter of pride.

    From the Urban Dictionary: Redneck: Mildly offensive term for a lower class white person from the southeastern states of the USA. Derives from someone who spent a lot of time on manual labour outside and so received a "red neck" from the sun.

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    ace1001 wrote:
    Redneck referrs to the sunburned back of the neck farmers got from stoop labor in the sun. It was an economic slur, not racial. Ace
    This was the origination of the term, but certainly not how it is used in current American culture.

    By classifying the perpetrators in this story as "rednecks" and generalizing that this was common behavior among such people, Pauly was stereotyping a whole hell of a lot of people, myself included. Whatever his slur was meant to imply, it was still inappropriate and disgusting.

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    vmathis12019 wrote:
    SNIP By classifying the perpetrators in this story as "rednecks" and generalizing that this was common behavior among such people, Pauly was stereotyping a whole hell of a lot of people, myself included. Whatever his slur was meant to imply, it was still inappropriate and disgusting.
    In Pauly's post, I took it to mean "unsophisticated" without further connotation.

    As Jeff Foxworthy defines it, "a glorious lack of sophistication."

    --Redneck Citizen
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I personally think Pauly was implying something more with the use of the term.This is why I took such great offense to the comment.



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    I'm getting tired of that slur

    I'm a rural american! I don't farm, and probably could farm to save my life.

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    I don't particularly have a huge problem with the word, it's the connotation that is often applied to it that pisses me off. When I say that I am a "redneck" it means to me that I am a rural southerner. A proud and hard working man who enjoys southern culture. When others use it, it is usually a nasty term implying ignorance, incest, intolerance, and stupidity.

    It's not completelyunlike older southern people using the n-word to describe african-americans.These individualsdon't necessarily see it as harmful, as many of them (the ones I know at least) use it just as a reference. Like it or not, most non-whites are distinguished by the color of their skin, and the term is usually just used to make that distinction. However, in the presence of an African American, that particular term implies racist sentiments of hatred and violence. The older southerners don't understand that their use of the word is offensive because they were raised in an environment where that was the most commonly used term for the description of the African-American. I'm not defending the use of the word, just pointing out that much like the term "redneck" there are popular connotations associated with the n-word that are very negative and offensive.

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    it was more of a joke

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    I know, but my response was not.

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    Did you see the picture in the news article??!!

    Definitely guilty of redneckism!

    (I'm a yankee, so I'm allowed to use the term 'redneck' with no basis whatsoever)

    On a side note: What's the big deal with 'redneck'. Firearms enthusiasts use the term 'Bubba' all the time. Either in 'bubbaing' up a milsurp or to describe idiots at the range (or both at the same time :P).

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    Again, I took offense at the generalization that was made with the use of the term. As stated before, the term doesn't necessarily bother me; it's when people use it to describe particularly vile individuals and create this stereotypical generalization that boils my blood.

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    I don't have a problem with the charge of murder in either case. It is simply a matter of making the person responsible for their full consequences of their actions, something criminals seem to not understand. They do not understand the aftermath of their actions, the grief, the pain, the anguish, the financial difficulty and the down right inconvenience their minor or major crimes cause the victims. And they do not seem to care either.

    I'm really glad that Florida has a castle doctrine. The OP case is a prime example of why we need laws to clarify our right to defend ourselves outside our homes without fear of prosecution.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    You all think this crap is dumb, having to defend yourself because you "drive poorly"....I once almost had to stop a guy from proceeding towards me in an agressive manner, while holding his right hand behind his back indicating that he had some sort of weapon..............because I took a parking space that he thought he should have (but made no indication as to wanting). There was an empty space on my drivers side....but he thought it would be better to pull up behind me and cause trouble.
    That single incident did more to convince my gf why I am armed than any speech that I had given her before.

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