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The case for the M-29 Smith

Wheelgunner

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Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
426
Location
Kingston, Washington, USA
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To: 45 1911

Most of the Delta guys carry some very trick autos. They carry sig 226's and 1911's. None carry a wheel gun. I don't know why but I can guess that in combat they need more capacity.


Hey I agree. I have thought about what auto I would carry if I could not have an N frame revolver. As to custom makes I would go with a Stainless slide with a Stormlake bull barrel and Bomar rear and Gold bead front. Lower would be a SVI in 10mm. Ammo would be Winchester silvertip and gun would be tuned for them. Essentially a 41 Magnum in auto profile. 17 rounds

Mass produced custom weapon would be a Glock 20 with a Bomarand gold bead sightsand a +5 mag extender in a carry mag fitted to the gun. Practice mags would be anything that worked reasonably well. 20 rounds.

Box stock only would be Glock 20. 15 rounds.
 

G20-IWB24/7

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Oct 26, 2007
Messages
886
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Tacoma, WA, ,
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Wheelgunner wrote:
To: 45 1911

Most of the Delta guys carry some very trick autos. They carry sig 226's and 1911's. None carry a wheel gun. I don't know why but I can guess that in combat they need more capacity.


Hey I agree. I have througt about what auto I would carry if I could not have an N frame revolver. As to custom makes I would go with a Stainless slide with a Stormlake bull barrel and Bomar rear and Gold bead front. Lower would be a SVI in 10mm. Ammo would be Winchester silvertip and gun would be tuned for them. Essencially a 41 Magnum in auto profile. 17 rounds

Mass produced custom weapon would be a Glock 20 with a Bomarand gold bead sightsand a +5 mag extender in a carry mag fitted to the gun. Practice mags would be anything that worked reasonably well. 20 rounds.

Box stock only would be Glock 20. 15 rounds.

Now, wait a second. Aren't you the same guy that just said "if you need more than 3 rounds you can't do it, yada yada...." Now you're talking hi-cap 10mm's?

When you're trying to prove a point, "Consistency is the Key."
 

Bear 45/70

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May 22, 2007
Messages
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Location
Union, Washington, USA
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G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
Wheelgunner wrote:
To: 45 1911

Most of the Delta guys carry some very trick autos. They carry sig 226's and 1911's. None carry a wheel gun. I don't know why but I can guess that in combat they need more capacity.


Hey I agree. I have througt about what auto I would carry if I could not have an N frame revolver. As to custom makes I would go with a Stainless slide with a Stormlake bull barrel and Bomar rear and Gold bead front. Lower would be a SVI in 10mm. Ammo would be Winchester silvertip and gun would be tuned for them. Essencially a 41 Magnum in auto profile. 17 rounds

Mass produced custom weapon would be a Glock 20 with a Bomarand gold bead sightsand a +5 mag extender in a carry mag fitted to the gun. Practice mags would be anything that worked reasonably well. 20 rounds.

Box stock only would be Glock 20. 15 rounds.

Now, wait a second. Aren't you the same guy that just said "if you need more than 3 rounds you can't do it, yada yada...." Now you're talking hi-cap 10mm's?

When you're trying to prove a point, "Consistency is the Key."
What Spec Op guys run into regularly is your worst nightmare and not the self defense situation you or I will ever see on the street. So this is an apples and oranges comparison. That said, I agree, if I can't put him down in 3,you need to either have way more practice or leave the guns to someone who can. This more rounds is better is the crutch of the untrained or just plain can't shoot crews. Center of mass on the average guyis a very large area, at least 72 square inches and if you can't get at least 2 out of 3 into that, I don't want you on my side with a gun in your hand pulling a trigger inthe excited state self defense shooting create.
 

G20-IWB24/7

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Messages
886
Location
Tacoma, WA, ,
imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote:
G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
Wheelgunner wrote:
To: 45 1911

Most of the Delta guys carry some very trick autos. They carry sig 226's and 1911's. None carry a wheel gun. I don't know why but I can guess that in combat they need more capacity.


Hey I agree. I have througt about what auto I would carry if I could not have an N frame revolver. As to custom makes I would go with a Stainless slide with a Stormlake bull barrel and Bomar rear and Gold bead front. Lower would be a SVI in 10mm. Ammo would be Winchester silvertip and gun would be tuned for them. Essencially a 41 Magnum in auto profile. 17 rounds

Mass produced custom weapon would be a Glock 20 with a Bomarand gold bead sightsand a +5 mag extender in a carry mag fitted to the gun. Practice mags would be anything that worked reasonably well. 20 rounds.

Box stock only would be Glock 20. 15 rounds.

Now, wait a second. Aren't you the same guy that just said "if you need more than 3 rounds you can't do it, yada yada...." Now you're talking hi-cap 10mm's?

When you're trying to prove a point, "Consistency is the Key."
What Spec Op guys run into regularly is your worst nightmare and not the self defense situation you or I will ever see on the street. So this is an apples and oranges comparison. That said, I agree, if I can't put him down in 3,you need to either have way more practice or leave the guns to someone who can. This more rounds is better is the crutch of the untrained or just plain can't shoot crews. Center of mass on the average guyis a very large area, at least 72 square inches and if you can't get at least 2 out of 3 into that, I don't want you on my side with a gun in your hand pulling a trigger inthe excited state self defense shooting create.

Bear, you didn't get the point I was trying to make. This whole time, Wheelgunner has been telling us that a 6-shot revolver is the best option for defense. Then, as soon as he "hypothetically switches" to autos, it's all hi-cap guns. Why not something like a 1911 that carries a few, big bullets (like his M29)? Why all of the sudden is a hi-cap mag full of 175gr Silvertips (to the tune of ~20 rounds!?!) necessary? I'm just wondering why the apparent flip-flop?

And FWIW, I carry a 1911 and can hit what I aim at. I very rarely carry my single hi-cappistol (a 1st Gen G17, almost collector-ish), and could give an aeronautical rodent's glueteus about what the latest "special ops" team is carrying. I have and use what works BEST for me, and have taught enough beginners how to shoot, that I get frustrated with someone publishing why some certain piece of hardware is the best for everyone, BLAH, BLAH. I just don't get it. You've found what works for you----CONGRATULATIONS!!! Now either help everyone else find what works for them and under their conditions, or please step aside! We have work to do!
 

Bear 45/70

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Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
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Location
Union, Washington, USA
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G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
Wheelgunner wrote:
To: 45 1911

Most of the Delta guys carry some very trick autos. They carry sig 226's and 1911's. None carry a wheel gun. I don't know why but I can guess that in combat they need more capacity.


Hey I agree. I have througt about what auto I would carry if I could not have an N frame revolver. As to custom makes I would go with a Stainless slide with a Stormlake bull barrel and Bomar rear and Gold bead front. Lower would be a SVI in 10mm. Ammo would be Winchester silvertip and gun would be tuned for them. Essencially a 41 Magnum in auto profile. 17 rounds

Mass produced custom weapon would be a Glock 20 with a Bomarand gold bead sightsand a +5 mag extender in a carry mag fitted to the gun. Practice mags would be anything that worked reasonably well. 20 rounds.

Box stock only would be Glock 20. 15 rounds.

Now, wait a second. Aren't you the same guy that just said "if you need more than 3 rounds you can't do it, yada yada...." Now you're talking hi-cap 10mm's?

When you're trying to prove a point, "Consistency is the Key."
What Spec Op guys run into regularly is your worst nightmare and not the self defense situation you or I will ever see on the street. So this is an apples and oranges comparison. That said, I agree, if I can't put him down in 3,you need to either have way more practice or leave the guns to someone who can. This more rounds is better is the crutch of the untrained or just plain can't shoot crews. Center of mass on the average guyis a very large area, at least 72 square inches and if you can't get at least 2 out of 3 into that, I don't want you on my side with a gun in your hand pulling a trigger inthe excited state self defense shooting create.

Bear, you didn't get the point I was trying to make. This whole time, Wheelgunner has been telling us that a 6-shot revolver is the best option for defense. Then, as soon as he "hypothetically switches" to autos, it's all hi-cap guns. Why not something like a 1911 that carries a few, big bullets (like his M29)? Why all of the sudden is a hi-cap mag full of 175gr Silvertips (to the tune of ~20 rounds!?!) necessary? I'm just wondering why the apparent flip-flop?

And FWIW, I carry a 1911 and can hit what I aim at. I very rarely carry my single hi-cappistol (a 1st Gen G17, almost collector-ish), and could give an aeronautical about what the latest "special ops" team is carrying. I have and use what works BEST for me, and have taught enough beginners how to shoot, that I get frustrated with someone publishing why some certain piece of hardware is the best for everyone, BLAH, BLAH. I just don't get it. You've found what works for you----CONGRATULATIONS!!! Now either help everyone else find what works for them and under their conditions, or please step aside! We have work to do!
Seems to me you want to tell everyone what to carry and don't want anybody else to give their opinion. So take your own advise and step aside and left everyone choose for themselves rather than listen to your aeronautical rodent's glueteus opinion on what is best forothers and raggingon others for their difference ofopinion. What I carry for personal defense and carried to war are worlds apart. But when I did carried an auto is was a single stack and 3 was all that was need, max for a single target, usually at least one more with a double tap requirement in place at the time. But then you seem to believe your opinion is more important than others. Well guess what, it just ain't so. And argue the auto vs wheel gun or the single stack vs the hi-cap is like argue religion, don't waste my time.
 

I_Hate_Illinois

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2007
Messages
237
Location
Joliet, Illinois, USA
imported post

Wheelgunner wrote:
Printed this on another part of forum, but had to share it with those who know me!



At 48 and a former gunsmith and a lifelong shooter, I have seen some stuff.

I wish to make the case for the Model 29/329 DA revolver as simply the best weapon for self defense made.

For the past 5 years I have been carrying a Model 29 S&W above all others. This after 21 years of carrying a variety of pistols and revolvers. For those looking for a lighter weight weapon, the 329 Titanium is a viable alternative. In my experience no automatic can match the S&W N frame revolver for reliability, accuracy, flexibility and power; as well as beautiful trigger pull, highest quality construction and natural pointing ability (with good grips).

I am not alone in this assessment. Recently the famous Thunder Ranch announced that they were going to endorse a weapon as representing the very best self defense option from the average person to the expert. The 1911 crowd began to accept congratulations and write articles that basically said "Of course it is a 1911, after all Col. Cooper was a 1911 freak. We just don't know WHICH 1911 it will be (Kimber, Springfield Armory, etc.)". The G## (Glock) crowd began to write articles which said "Maybe this will be our moment". Several of the smaller manufactures (Sig, eea began to whisper about their .357 Sig being bought by Government agencies and they hoped THEY might be picked).

Thunder Ranch picked a fixed sight 4" S&W N frame in .44 Special!

The reason for choosing this weapon? Utter reliability. The entire concept of feeding jams, magazine spring weakness, double feeds, squib loads, failure to strip a round, failure to eject, stovepipe jams,weak hand jam, malfunction drills, extractor tension, ejector tuning, mag lips, bullet profile, feed ramp smoothness, etc. is irrelevant. There is no need to burn up 200 rounds to make sure a certain load is reliable in you weapon, because they always will be. (Is 200 rounds a good test? What happens when your shooting your $23.00 per 20 = 200 or $230.00 of test Super Zapper ammo and and you jam on round #190? Was it you or the gun? Do you clean and check the weapon for broken or mis-installed parts and then go out and buy another $230 bucks of ammo to re-test? Are you firing from the hip to check weak handed jams? (Try shooting weak handed from the hip and watch it jam).

How many times have you been to the range and seen the bloke next to you “working” to get his weapon to feed or clearing a jam? I see it every time I go. And whilerevolver shootersremove our brass carefully, the pistol sprays hot brass all over (When one goes down your shirt, we snicker).


Reloading speed? Look 99% of the time you are going to finish your opponent in the first 3 rounds. Cases show that if you haven’t gotten your head together by then, you will blaze the mag empty and die. Even then, with speedloaders I can reload my M29 as fast as a regular guy can reload his 1911. If you don’t carry backup ammo and you have an eight round 1911, what is your argument against the S&W eight round .357 Mag revolver? See Picture below.


Accuracy? 2" at fifty yards (Yes, fifty). ‘Nuff said.


Caliber? Compared to a 9mm, the 0.429 bullet is already expanded when it hits the perp. Then it opens, violently.


Flexibility? Bullet profile is entirely irrelevant. LSWC, JHC, JHP, FMJ all fire with equal enthusiasm. Wax loads for indoor practice, shotshells, paintball, blanks, lead, lead jacketed, full copper, everything.


Horsepower?Power can be throttled from 250 grain SWC @750 FPS (Cowboy loads) to a 165 grain JHP @1050fps in .44 Special. The same weapon in 44 magnum will take the same loads in 44 Special as well as a 180 grain bullet @1600 FPS or 320 grain LFP @1000 hunting loads. This flexibility in bullet weight is because the weapon is not relying on recoil slide speed and powder burn rate to operate the mechanisms. Power is also completely adjustable for the same reason. Conversely, +P cartridges in the automatic tend to be less reliable (more prone to jamming the gun) and can even beat some guns to death.


And don’t discount the importance of horsepower. Shocking (Stopping) power is important. An automatic is reliable only within a narrow range of fps and bullet weight and bullet profile. A revolver can take the best bullet and best weight and push it as fast as necessary to be reliable in expansion with literally no consideration to profile or FPS or bullet weight in terms of their effect on reliability.

Horsepower is also a factor in tactics. There is a school of thought that a weapon that makes normal cover transparent (including cars, furniture, doors, interior walls, etc) gives you a powerful edge. Bad guy uses the cover of a wall, and you shoot through the wall. Bad guy ducks behind car door and you shoot through the door. By denying the enemy any cover at all, you change the tactical scenario completely.
Nothing wrong with a revolver. They have withstood the test of time. Excellent weapons. I have several. However, I am privy to my Glocks, simply because in the 10,000+ rounds I have fired through them, I have never had a single malfunction, no matter what bullet weight, profile, or powder load. I also like the fact that the Glock pistol has 34 parts and any can be replaced with relative ease should I need to do so, though I never have. Just my $0.02. Excellent points on the plus side of revolvers, however.
 

Wheelgunner

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Messages
426
Location
Kingston, Washington, USA
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Sorry!

If I were a Special OPs DELTA Guy, I would carry a Auto. Why? Because the possibility of taking on multitudes of well armed dudes with military experience. Need for Silencers, etc.

Didn't mean to stir the pot!

As a civilian I am happy to carry a revolver. Proud to live in a country thatmakes the finest revolvers in the world, and recognises theRight of all free men to carry one.

G-20. Ihad hoped that by publishing whatmy thinking process and experience was I would be helping others make their decisions.
 

G20-IWB24/7

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Messages
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Tacoma, WA, ,
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Bear 45/70 wrote:
Seems to me you want to tell everyone what to carry and don't want anybody else to give their opinion. So take your own advise and step aside and left everyone choose for themselves rather than listen to your aeronautical rodent's glueteus opinion on what is best forothers and raggingon others for their difference ofopinion. What I carry for personal defense and carried to war are worlds apart. But when I did carried an auto is was a single stack and 3 was all that was need, max for a single target, usually at least one more with a double tap requirement in place at the time. But then you seem to believe your opinion is more important than others. Well guess what, it just ain't so. And argue the auto vs wheel gun or the single stack vs the hi-cap is like argue religion, don't waste my time.

First, Merry Christmas, and I hope we can keep this discussion to a civilized tone. because I think you bring some important issues to the table.

Second, I didn't say that I didn't want anyone else to give their opinion. I just don't want people to give thier opinion and say that "it works for anyone and everyone." My wife 5'7" 115 is sure as heck NOT going to be carrying an N-frame at anytime in her life. And anyone that would suggest one as a viable option, would sound silly to me.

Third, where did I suggest anything to anyone. I just pointed out the inconsistencies in Wheelgunners preference and wondered why they were there. Now that he said it was the difference between a personal defense vs. military sidearm, I understand. No need to figuratively bite my head off. He even apologized for not specifying the conditions of his preference.

Fourth, if arguing wheelgun vs. auto and single-stack vs. hi-cap is like arguing religion, and I'm supposed to "not waste your time," then why are we both posting our "opinions" on the SELECTING A HANDGUN forum??? I've been paid for my opinion regarding handguns in the past, and had a rather large following of loyal customers that would ONLY talk to me regarding their potential handgun choices. The first thing I would tell them was to try and get some range time with what they think they want, and some of it's closest competitors, then come back and see me with the range report. I've even gone as far as telling people that "I didn't want to sell them the gun, before they shot one." I can't tell you how many times they would come back and say "I'm glad you made me do that, I didn't like the way it shot at ALL! But I did find one that I really liked, and it handled perfectly for me." Then we would proceed with paperwork on the one that worked, instead of me, giving them my (tainted) opinion and having them be dissatisfied with their purchase. What I'm saying is that it's not my opinion that's more important, what is more important is the process one goes through to select a defensive handgun, especially a "newbie" to the firearms world. And that process is more important that ANYONE's opinion.

After all, this is OCDO, and we're looking to convert people, not turn them away, right? And if someone gets "talked into" buying a .44mag as their first handgun, then pulls the trigger once, hates it, takes it to a pawnshop and never touches a firearm again-----we didn't do much 'converting' did we?
 

G20-IWB24/7

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Messages
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Tacoma, WA, ,
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Wheelgunner wrote:
Sorry!

If I were a Special OPs DELTA Guy, I would carry a Auto. Why? Because the possibility of taking on multitudes of well armed dudes with military experience. Need for Silencers, etc.

Didn't mean to stir the pot!

As a civilian I am happy to carry a revolver. Proud to live in a country thatmakes the finest revolvers in the world, and recognises theRight of all free men to carry one.

G-20. Ihad hoped that by publishing whatmy thinking process and experience was I would be helping others make their decisions.
Right on. I appreciate the clarification. I just didn't know where you were going with the 10mm auto thing. Honestly, I wish I had the hands big enough to carry a full-size revolver. I can't even shoot them right, because I have to fudge my grip to the side a bit. My puny little paws make it necessary to use mostly single stack autos. But whatever truly works for someone, that's a totally personal choice, and I commend you for carrying a M29, that for a bad guy, will "Blow you head, clean off."
 

Bear 45/70

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Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
3,256
Location
Union, Washington, USA
imported post

G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
Seems to me you want to tell everyone what to carry and don't want anybody else to give their opinion. So take your own advise and step aside and left everyone choose for themselves rather than listen to your aeronautical rodent's glueteus opinion on what is best forothers and raggingon others for their difference ofopinion. What I carry for personal defense and carried to war are worlds apart. But when I did carried an auto is was a single stack and 3 was all that was need, max for a single target, usually at least one more with a double tap requirement in place at the time. But then you seem to believe your opinion is more important than others. Well guess what, it just ain't so. And argue the auto vs wheel gun or the single stack vs the hi-cap is like argue religion, don't waste my time.

First, Merry Christmas, and I hope we can keep this discussion to a civilized tone. because I think you bring some important issues to the table.

Second, I didn't say that I didn't want anyone else to give their opinion. I just don't want people to give thier opinion and say that "it works for anyone and everyone." My wife 5'7" 115 is sure as heck NOT going to be carrying an N-frame at anytime in her life. And anyone that would suggest one as a viable option, would sound silly to me.

Third, where did I suggest anything to anyone. I just pointed out the inconsistencies in Wheelgunners preference and wondered why they were there. Now that he said it was the difference between a personal defense vs. military sidearm, I understand. No need to figuratively bite my head off. He even apologized for not specifying the conditions of his preference.

Fourth, if arguing wheelgun vs. auto and single-stack vs. hi-cap is like arguing religion, and I'm supposed to "not waste your time," then why are we both posting our "opinions" on the SELECTING A HANDGUN forum??? I've been paid for my opinion regarding handguns in the past, and had a rather large following of loyal customers that would ONLY talk to me regarding their potential handgun choices. The first thing I would tell them was to try and get some range time with what they think they want, and some of it's closest competitors, then come back and see me with the range report. I've even gone as far as telling people that "I didn't want to sell them the gun, before they shot one." I can't tell you how many times they would come back and say "I'm glad you made me do that, I didn't like the way it shot at ALL! But I did find one that I really liked, and it handled perfectly for me." Then we would proceed with paperwork on the one that worked, instead of me, giving them my (tainted) opinion and having them be dissatisfied with their purchase. What I'm saying is that it's not my opinion that's more important, what is more important is the process one goes through to select a defensive handgun, especially a "newbie" to the firearms world. And that process is more important that ANYONE's opinion.

After all, this is OCDO, and we're looking to convert people, not turn them away, right? And if someone gets "talked into" buying a .44mag as their first handgun, then pulls the trigger once, hates it, takes it to a pawnshop and never touches a firearm again-----we didn't do much 'converting' did we?
Let me start by saying that yesterday started bad and early, then all day shopping in stores with way too f--king many people with way to few manners or even paying attention to where they were walkingand by the time I get to you my attitude was in the dumper. So I apologies for getting short and Merry Christmas back at ya. Now, I value everyone's opinion, no matter how screwball they get sometimes.I do however reserve the right to tell screwball idea presenters that they are screwed. I'm going to just pass on most of your questions as we probably won't have a middle ground, which is fine with me and I hope with you. I never ever advocated a 44 mag for anyone, first gun or 50th gun. I have only found one application for a 44 Mag and that is in Ruger's little 44 Carbine, makes a great brush gun. In a pistol I don't like it and think 44 mag and above is for the masochists in the shooting world (even though I do own a 45/70 Government pistol). However what was originally recommended in this tread was the 44 Special which I do recommend whole heartedly.
 
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