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Thread: HELP

  1. #1
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    Dear fellow OC'ers I have a issue that needs to be addressed and I dont know what to do on this issue and I feel my 2nd Amendement has been violated. This is the story.

    Today Dec 23 2007 at about 5 oclock I was holiday shopping with my friends at south towne mall. I was OC'ing. I had my H&K 40 full size on my right hip. I was approached by mall secuirty officer by the name of Mithcell Swenson he said sir are you a permit holder I replied no not yet. He then replies why do you have a gun. I replied to is my right to carry a firearm openly in the state of utah without a permit. i also stated it is my 2nd amendment right. He replied i was in violation of store policy. I said is there a written policy saying that firearms are not permitted on store grounds. He said no but there are signs at the front entrance I said would you please show me. He then took me to the entrance and there is a sign stating that firearms are not permitted. I then stated I would like your name your bosses name. I got both of there names the bosses name is Jonathan Pitman. I then replied I will disarm but I will not let this stand I do have a right to protect myself and I'am not the criminal. I also got the mall manager name Celest Neil 8015721518. I then went to my car and disarmed and continued shopping but I did not buy anything. Please if anyone can shine light on this and let me know what to do your help will be a great help. Can the mall do this.

    Happy Packing

    Ps I think we should have a OC event at south towne

  2. #2
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    Tacomatosehad the same type of experience at the Layton Hills Mall a month or so ago. You can look at the thread posted by him to see the details. But he looked at what the Layton Hills Mall called the behavioral code of conduct. This has under number


    "20. Carrying or displaying weapons of any kind except those carried by certified law enforcement officers in the performance of their duties."

    At the bottom it also states that if you feel that your civil rights or liberties have been drprived to contact the Mall managemnet. I looked at the South Town Mall website and found nothing like that of the layton hills code of conduct. I would e-mail the management. I would be happy to do the same.

    Anyway I am sorry that you had the same thing happen to you. I had a similar experience at the University Mall. Sgt Jenson and I am going to have a day at the mall with our sidearms. We plan to do it in the evening to have others join us as well. (it was supposed to happen last week....i was unable to plan the event...sorry Kevin.)


    Happy Christmas Everyone.







  3. #3
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    Tacomatosehad the same type of experience at the Layton Hills Mall a month or so ago. You can look at the thread posted by him to see the details. But he looked at what the Layton Hills Mall called the behavioral code of conduct. This has under number


    "20. Carrying or displaying weapons of any kind except those carried by certified law enforcement officers in the performance of their duties."

    At the bottom it also states that if you feel that your civil rights or liberties have been drprived to contact the Mall managemnet. I looked at the South Town Mall website and found nothing like that of the layton hills code of conduct. I would e-mail the management. I would be happy to do the same.

    Anyway I am sorry that you had the same thing happen to you. I had a similar experience at the University Mall. Sgt Jenson and I am going to have a day at the mall with our sidearms. We plan to do it in the evening to have others join us as well. (it was supposed to happen last week....i was unable to plan the event...sorry Kevin.)


    Happy Christmas Everyone.



    The behaviorial code of conduct is what the security officer told me also. He said it was not a written policy but there is signs out in the front entrance. Im just curious though are propertys allowed to do that i do realize that it is privite property but It seems like your liberties are violated. Well when you and Sgt jenson plan on that event at the mall let me know would love to join.

  4. #4
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    I will let you know.

  5. #5
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    I will let you know.

    Sounds Good

  6. #6
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    One thing to remember is that the 2nd Amendment prevents the government from violating your basic human right to self-defense.

    I don't know Utah law; but I'm betting businesses are allowed to set pretty much whatever rules of conduct they want, excepting discriminating on the basis of certain things like gender, religion, skin color, etc.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  7. #7
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    Citizen wrote:
    One thing to remember is that the 2nd Amendment prevents the government from violating your basic human right to self-defense.

    I don't know Utah law; but I'm betting businesses are allowed to set pretty much whatever rules of conduct they want, excepting discriminating on the basis of certain things like gender, religion, skin color, etc.
    You can set any policy you wantbut it does not make it legal to do so. In Utah store owners can say whatever they want, but in the end askingyou to leave because of your gun is the same as just asking youto leave.

  8. #8
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    Amendment II wrote:
    Please if anyone can shine light on this and let me know what to do your help will be a great help. Can the mall do this.
    As I understand it, yes, they can. Read on for some caveats, though.

    Owners of private property are allowed to ask you to leave that property for almost any reason, and if you don't leave you're trespassing and can be arrested and charged. If they don't like your clothes, your behavior, or just about anything else, they can kick you out. About the only things they can't kick you out for are your age, race or gender (and age and gender can sometimes be restricted).

    The security guard, acting as a representative of the mall owners/management, was within his rights to ask you to leave. He didn't actually do that, but he could have, and you'd have had to comply.

    The security guard was also within his rights to ask you about your permit, and to ask you to put your gun in your car. He could also have asked you what you had for breakfast. Those requests, however, have no legal force behind them. You could have refused to answer his question about the permit, or lied, or told him his socks were ugly. You also could have refused to put your weapon in the car. Not cooperating, however, would almost certainly have led him to ask you to leave, which *would* be a legally enforceable request.

    I find it interesting that he asked you about a permit. In this case, possession of a CFP would have made absolutely zero legal difference (assuming your weapon wasn't loaded, of course), since what you were doing doesn't require a permit. Perhaps the mall policy makes an exception for CFP holders? I guess that wouldn't be a completely unreasonable position for them to take, on the grounds that CFP holders have been deemed people "of good character" by the state, and might therefore be more trustworthy. Also, they probably understand that CFP holders can and do carry concealed in their mall all the time.

    Finally, as I understand it, the signs at the door also have no legal force. You're free to ignore them. They do, however, give you an idea of what sort of reception you're likely to get inside, so it might be better not to patronize establishments that put up such signs, and to recommend to your friends, neighbors and relatives that they also avoid those establishments.

    Note however, that the rules are different if you find signs prohibiting firearms on private residences or houses of worship. Utah law explicitly outlaws taking firearms (with or without CFP) into those places if the owners have given notice of the prohibition. The law also states that signs that would reasonably be expected to be seen by those entering qualify as notice. If you see signs on the doors at someone's home or at church (note that all LDS meeting houses in Utah disallow firearms), leave your gun in the car. They don't have to ask you to leave first, they can just have you arrested.

    Note that I am not a lawyer; I have been reading up on this stuff, though. If anyone has any corrections to what I've written, I'd love to hear them.

  9. #9
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    swillden,you are pretty much on the mark. Trespassing would be a hard sale even if you refused to leave since it is a place open to the general public, however unless you want to be a legal test case I would still leave.

    If I can't OC there I won't spend my money there (even if I choose to CC). I alsowrite the management and let them know this. I know the few hundred letters they will get will not make a difference, but I still enjoy knowing they will not get my money.

  10. #10
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    xmirage2kx wrote:
    Trespassing would be a hard sale even if you refused to leave since it is a place open to the general public, however unless you want to be a legal test case I would still leave.
    I don't think there's any question of being a "test case". As I understand it, this is very well-settled law. Even locations open to the public ("public accomodations", in legal terms) may exclude anyone for almost any reason -- basically anything but race, color, sex, creed or national origin. This was all quite firmly settled because of attempts in the south to use trespassing charges to enforce segregation. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 made clear that public accomodations don't have to right to exclude on the basis of race, color, religion or national origin.

    Utah law (title 13, chapter 7) adds sex and ancestry to the list of things upon which business establishments and places of public accommodation may not discriminate. That seems to leave wide open any other causes for discrimination.

    By my reading of 76-6-206 in the Utah Code, refusing to leave when asked constitutes a class B misdemeanor. The law does say that you can argue that you weren't causing trouble as a defense, but it seems to me that you'd have to be able to prove that your presence didn't in any way damage the owner's business, and that might be difficult. It seems like all the owner would have to do is to find one person to testify that your presence would have made them uncomfortable enough to leave.

  11. #11
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    There is plenty of case law that supports either side of a trespassing charge. It usually just depends on how the public would view your actions.

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