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Thread: bradley square mall, cleveland tn

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    This happened to me last night at the bradley square mall. I was shopping with my family and i came in thru the belks department store, open carry. shopped in belks for a while, walked thru the mall for about 45 mins, and then i went into american eagle with my wife. some strange looks from the teenagers working there (not unusual) l left A.E. and went to the mall rest room at the other end of the mall.

    The security guard was approaching fast and I knew what this was about. he said some store employees at A.Ecalled him and said they seen " a man with a gun" he then statedthe mall has a no carry policy, and I informed him that it was not posted. then I showed him a copy of TN codes concerning postings-

    T.C.A. 39-17-1359states:

    Notice of the prohibition shall be posted. Posted notices shall be displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the building, portion of the building or buildings where weapon possession is prohibited.

    Said security guard called his boss and read the code (i carry a copy) to him. his boss said it was B.S. and have me removed. he then asked me to take it to my vehichle and I said no that i would conceal it, hes said as far as he was concerned that was fine. the security guard was very polite and was not showing force, ( he has a carry permit also) he stated he has made many attempts to have his boss correct the entrances concerning postings. the guard found me later and gave me and my wife a 10.00 mall gift card he said it was for harrassment from him.( he was very nice) the guard said he will continue trying to get his boss to correct the problem.

    Note: the mall does have a no weapons"wording" at the main entrance only and it is in a list of rules and its the 11th rule down and in very small letters. i went and looked after the incident.

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    Hmmm. I'm pretty sure if the manager asks you to leave you still need to. Otherwise you will be trespassing. I think the signs being absent only protect you from firearms charges. Correct me if I'm wrong....

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    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    Hmmm. I'm pretty sure if the manager asks you to leave you still need to. Otherwise you will be trespassing. I think the signs being absent only protect you from firearms charges. Correct me if I'm wrong....
    the manager was not present at the time and if asked to leave I would have. I just refused to go put my weapon in my vehichle, having said that if he asked me to leave I would have but we came to an agreement on concealment.

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    Overall sounds like things went fairly well. Nice to see a security guard that has some sense as well.

    I also like the idea of having statutes etc.. handy to give to those who may question things. I haven't OC'd that much, but when/if I do on a regular basis I will have a few items myself.

    Oh...and just to let you know. The statute about the signs is actually T.C.A. 39-17-1359 not 39-17-1360(Has since correct post)

    Also here is AG opinion 07-43 about property owner's posting signs.

    Not that it was in question, buthere is AGopinon 05-154 thatOC is legal.

    Just remember if asked to leave (which you weren't) you must leave or it trespassing and if told to conceal instead of OC (which you were and did) you must do as they request according to AG opinon 07-148

    Andhere is a link to a letter generatorto sent tobanning/posted business' on the T.F.A.'s website.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    thanks fall guy,

    I have made the corrections on the post. the actual paper I had at the mall was correct. thanks for the link on the letter genorator.

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    No Problem!!
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    A question Fallguy...does it have to be the owner of the property who tells you to vacate the property, or can it be an agent of the owner (in other words a manager of the property)? I am curious as this incident took place in a mall and I doubt the actual property owner told the person who was OCing to leave.

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    What the law says is, the owner or by someone with apparent authority to act for the owner.

    Here is the trespass law T.C.A. 39-14-405
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Thanks for the clarification.

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    Old Hickory Mall here in Jackson, TN is just as bad, even worse. I was the Security Director there for a year after working as a guard for four years. I knew policy said no guns allowed but I just asked the customer to conceal it like the guy you spoke with. In fact, my mall is so gung-ho that the new Director actually forced a police Captain to leave the mall as her reason was that he was not in uniform!!! I heard she had her ass chewed pretty good she hasn't given up on harassing the legally armed citizens.

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    I have just started carrying should I expect this ?

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    Where are you from Jack?

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    fullauto223cal wrote:
    Old Hickory Mall here in Jackson, TN is just as bad, even worse. I was the Security Director there for a year after working as a guard for four years. I knew policy said no guns allowed but I just asked the customer to conceal it like the guy you spoke with. In fact, my mall is so gung-ho that the Director actually forced a police Captain to leave the mall as her reason was that he was not in uniform!!! I heard she had her ass chewed pretty good she hasn't given up on harassing the legally armed citizens.
    Just another reason I haven't been there years and won't go anytime that I know of.

    jack wrote:
    I have just started carrying should I expect this ?
    Nah...not always and everywhere, but you should be ready for it when you are in the places that do.


    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    I really can't see security being able to order off duty cops out of a mall for being armed. Ask to see a badge and that should be it. Even then though why ?

    What if someone had been armed when that kid walked into that mall a few weeks ago.

    What if no one was armed at all at the recent church shooting. Supposedly that young man carried 1000 rounds with him and had more guns in his car. That could have been even worse.

    If you ask me these anti-gunners, security types, some cops are putting the general public at greater risk by opposing everyday carry.

    I never carried ever but with all these crazy types shooting up the place, what choice does a guy have but to protect himself and his family.A fewmonths ago I started carrying my Sig 226 everywhere even on planes. I got a lockable case for it and the check in people just ask if it unloaded. Once I'm at my rental car my sig is on the seat or on my hip (unless it's illegal there). I wish I had found this site before spending $45 on books that explaingun laws. I always check local laws as I travel weekly.

    Just now it came across the news a guy upset about hisbill shot the manager and a customer at a Hooters in Tenn. People actually think there should be no one armed in there ? Everyone one of those girls should be carrying, especially when they walk out at night. Maybe if there was a shotgun hanging over the managers desk that customer wouldn't be dead.

    Now all we can do is pray for their families. This just makes me very angry.

    Be safe everyone and carry an extra clip

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    fullauto223cal wrote:
    Where are you from Jack?
    Clayton, NC

    Although I'm a road warrior now in the new job and spend most of my time traveling to customer sites.We like to say we are underpaid road slaves.Hopefully I will get my old job back when the economy settles down. It's been a rough year and the travel is no longer fun.

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    ^^JACK - The thing is that new director thought that the cop had to be in uniform. The cop she kicked out was a Captain with JPD over violent crimes and doesn't wear a uniform. Like I said, she brought some serious **** down on the Mall for that little slip up.

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    Huh? Unless the officer was conducting an official investigation, I don't see why he has any more rights to be there than anyone else.

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    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    Huh? Unless the officer was conducting an official investigation, I don't see why he has any more rights to be there than anyone else.
    Agreed! I have asked the question about whether the UT off-duty cop who was carrying in the mall which was posted gun-free got into any trouble. If you are an off-duty cop, you are no better than the rest of us and should have no different rights than a non-LEO.

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    C-ya wrote:
    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    Huh? Unless the officer was conducting an official investigation, I don't see why he has any more rights to be there than anyone else.
    Agreed! I have asked the question about whether the UT off-duty cop who was carrying in the mall which was posted gun-free got into any trouble. If you are an off-duty cop, you are no better than the rest of us and should have no different rights than a non-LEO.
    Here in Cleveland, the cops are considered on duty 24/7. Our local sheriff is ex-secret service and he is all gung-ho. so when off duty and carrying concealed they are immune to the civilian do not carry laws.

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    tnshooter wrote:
    Here in Cleveland, the cops are considered on duty 24/7. Our local sheriff is ex-secret service and he is all gung-ho. so when off duty and carrying concealed they are immune to the civilian do not carry laws.
    Unless he is paying his people 24/7 one could push the issue if they wanted to.

    Of course I've always wondered who are you gonna call if you saw an off-duty LEO carrying in a place that he isn't supposed to? His fellow officers?

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    tnshooter wrote:
    Here in Cleveland, the cops are considered on duty 24/7. Our local sheriff is ex-secret service and he is all gung-ho. so when off duty and carrying concealed they are immune to the civilian do not carry laws.
    If that is the city's policy, that's fine. I wonder how many cities have that policy? I understand that just because you take off the uniform doesn't mean that you aren't a cop anymore. Same as being in the military. You are under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ 24/7, whether in or out of uniform.

    The thing that I don't like is when an off-duty cop is given a free pass when a non-LEO wouldn't for carrying in a gun-free zone JUST because they are LEO. If they are not on duty or on official business, why do they have more rights than the rest of us?

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    Reading this about off duty officers just irritates me. I'm about to start working for the Sherrif's Office. For those of you that think off duty officers should be no different than you let me pose this question. If someone comes into the store you happen to be at and tries to rob the placewhich places your life as well as others in danger and after it's all over you find out one of the patrons is an off duty officer. Are you going to be pissed and want to know why he/she didn't do anything to protect you and stop the person?

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    mdmoseley wrote:
    Reading this about off duty officers just irritates me. I'm about to start working for the Sherrif's Office. For those of you that think off duty officers should be no different than you let me pose this question. If someone comes into the store you happen to be at and tries to rob the placewhich places your life as well as others in danger and after it's all over you find out one of the patrons is an off duty officer. Are you going to be pissed and want to know why he/she didn't do anything to protect you and stop the person?
    No, I'm not going to be upset since case law has established in the various states and federal levels that the police are NOT legally required to protect the individual. Put your irritation on hold until you research the law.

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    Well it would seem now by law that LEO's are on duty pretty much 24/7

    T.C.A. 39-17-1350 Law enforcement officers permitted to carry firearms — Exceptions — Restrictions — Identification card for corrections officers.

    (a) Notwithstanding any provision of law to the contrary, any law enforcement officer may carry firearms at all times and in all places within Tennessee, on-duty or off-duty, regardless of the officer's regular duty hours or assignments, except as provided by subsection (c), federal law, lawful orders of court or the written directives of the executive supervisor of the employing agency.

    (b) The authority conferred by this section is expressly intended to and shall supersede restrictions placed upon law enforcement officers' authority to carry firearms by other sections within this part.

    (c) The authority conferred by this section shall not extend to a law enforcement officer:


    (1) Who carries a firearm onto school grounds or inside a school building during regular school hours unless the officer immediately informs the principal that the officer will be present on school grounds or inside the school building and in possession of a firearm. If the principal is unavailable, the notice may be given to an appropriate administrative staff person in the principal's office;

    (2) Who is consuming beer or an alcoholic beverage or who is under the influence of beer, an alcoholic beverage, or a controlled substance;

    (3) Who is not engaged in the actual discharge of official duties as a law enforcement officer while within the confines of an establishment where beer or alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption on-the-premises; or

    (4) Who is not engaged in the actual discharge of official duties as a law enforcement officer while attending a judicial proceeding.
    There is also a bill currently in the legislature SB3853 that would remove all the restriction in part (c) except for sub-part (2).

    As a firefighter/emt I only have a duty to act when I am on the job or if my job policies required I could have a duty when off work, but still with in the area controlled by my job. A LEO is the same way, if you are city policeman or a county deputy, you only have a duty to act when within the city or county you serve. Now of course LEO's, firefighter and EMT's are all liable to act in any situation any where if they think there actions can help.

    But just as above a person with a HCP may need to defend himselves anywhere and all I ask is we have the same tools available to us as a on off-duty LEO.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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