Clearing a firearm in public.

TechnoWeenie · Dec 24, 2007

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Now, don't get me wrong, I don't actually think it's smart, but after reading one of the posts about Cabela's and one of the posters hesitance to unholster his firearm, would unholstering, removing the magazine, then clearing the firearm be 'cause for alarm'?? Anyone who knew ANYTHING about firearms would be able to see that he was making the weapon SAFE, not getting it ready to shoot. So at what point does ignorance take precedence over intelligence/knowledge?

Is some pansy' statement of 'I was scared, I saw a gun out' really enough for a criminal charge/conviction?

The whole Cabela's experience the other week was both funny and unnerving, why would someone be in the GUN section of a HUNTING store, be 'afraid' that someone had a gun openly carried in a holster?

joeroket · Dec 24, 2007

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9.41.270 is the RCW what we struggle with all the time. The wording "cause for alarm" has not be really determined by a court. They have been certain situations that we know are not cause for alarm but the wording is so ambigious that it is often misused.

deanf · Dec 24, 2007

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Doesn't it say "warrants alarm?" If an action "causes alarm" the alarm must be "warranted" for a conviction.

This is splitting hairs, but that's what we pay lawyers and courts to do.

joeroket · Dec 24, 2007

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Ahhh yes that is the exact wording. My point is that it is interpreted by LEO that any action that causes alarm is an arrestable offense and that is where the confusion comes in.

dng · Dec 25, 2007

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It would not surprise me if you would get hit with a brandishing charge.

Crackajack · Dec 25, 2007

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I personally have been in this situation before. I wanted to have a clerk at a shop look at my weapon. I will reach down and remove the magazine first and set it on the counter. Your average gun-dumb will think the gun is now unloaded, few realizing theres one in the pipe. I then grip the top of the slide and pull it out, so Im not grabbing the grip like a draw. Obviously its hard to clear the weapon, so I just out and out do it.

I try to make it as little alarm warranting as possible as you never know who's around.

TechnoWeenie · Dec 25, 2007

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One of the reasons I ask is, I plan on mounting a small safe in my trunk, bolted in, so I can SAFELY store a firearm or two in case I go into places that are off limits.

I'm just trying to think of the possibility of some moron seeing a guy put a gun in his trunk, and calling the police....

'oh my god..he..he has a gun.. and.. and he put it in his trunk....in a little box...'

What if someone had been the victim of gun crime, and is paranoid about guns, is that 'warranted alarm' or whatever the phrase is, since someone is 'obviously alarmed' about seeing one?

nofoa · Dec 25, 2007

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Alot of people put safes in there car, and they manipulate the firearm while sitting in the vehicle. This conceals it from view, and most people will just think your detatching the faceplate on your care stereo.

I plan on eventually a safe suitable for my tiny truck.

just_a_car · Dec 25, 2007

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dngreer wrote:

It would not surprise me if you would get hit with a brandishing charge.

There is no specific "brandishing" law in Washington. RCW 9.41.270 covers it.

just_a_car · Dec 25, 2007

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TechnoWeenie wrote:

One of the reasons I ask is, I plan on mounting a small safe in my trunk, bolted in, so I can SAFELY store a firearm or two in case I go into places that are off limits.

I'm just trying to think of the possibility of some moron seeing a guy put a gun in his trunk, and calling the police....

'oh my god..he..he has a gun.. and.. and he put it in his trunk....in a little box...'

What if someone had been the victim of gun crime, and is paranoid about guns, is that 'warranted alarm' or whatever the phrase is, since someone is 'obviously alarmed' about seeing one?

No, that is not warranted alarm. In State v. Casad (an unpublished, as of yet, Appelate Court case) they determined that it had to "warrant alarm for the safety of others" and that such had to be warranted from a "reasonable person". Someone that was traumatized by gun crime would potentially be "unreasonable" when confronted by the sight of a gun and thus, their level of alarm would not necessarilly warrant alarm for the safety of others; but if corroborated by a "reasonable person", it would likely stick.

IANAL.

Ravenhawk · Dec 25, 2007

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I would be alarmed if ANYBODY whipped out thier gun be it a LEO or average Joe it should be done out of plain view unless at a shooting range or place of residence.

Unless I know the person I'd feel "alarmed" to even get swept much less shot by the acccidents that we always read about.

Mainsail · Dec 25, 2007

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Clearing a firearm in a public setting is certainly going to worry people, and may well ‘warrant alarm for the safety of others’ as in the law. In the USAF, we were only allowed to load or clear a weapon at a ‘clearing barrel’, which is a barrel of sand with a round opening for the muzzle of the gun to point into.

If there were an accident and the gun discharged, injuring or killing someone, the potential jury pool for your trial may well have the ‘clearing barrel’ mentality, and judge your action criminally negligent.

I would never unload my firearm at a gun counter with people around.

Bear 45/70 · Dec 25, 2007

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TechnoWeenie wrote:

One of the reasons I ask is, I plan on mounting a small safe in my trunk, bolted in, so I can SAFELY store a firearm or two in case I go into places that are off limits.

I'm just trying to think of the possibility of some moron seeing a guy put a gun in his trunk, and calling the police....

'oh my god..he..he has a gun.. and.. and he put it in his trunk....in a little box...'

What if someone had been the victim of gun crime, and is paranoid about guns, is that 'warranted alarm' or whatever the phrase is, since someone is 'obviously alarmed' about seeing one?

Yea and when they just steal the whole car, easier than opening the safe then and there, and take it somewhere where they have whatever time it takes to get the safe open. I don't leave my personal defense weapon in my car without another armed person to watch over it. Isn't there something about "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" written somewhere important that makes all these disarm the citizen laws illegal? Oh yeah that's the 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights, part of the supreme law of the land.

G20-IWB24/7 · Dec 25, 2007

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Very few times in my life have I ever felt the need to clear my weapon in a commercial environment. If I'm in a gunshop and find a holster I might like, I'll either ask to see one of their 1911's, and check for fit (how much of a sweat guard it has, covers or doesn't cover the mag release, etc.). If that won't solve my curiosity, I'll either:

1) Tell one of the staff members what my intentions are and ask how THEY would like me to proceed. This puts the ball in their court, and lets them operate under a condition of control. Having been on the other side of the counter, we appreciate that. Often times I'll just hand my gun (still in it's holster) to them, after telling them its "cocked and locked, with a round chambered" and let them clear it.

2) Go out to my vehicle and come back in, carrying my UNLOADED weapon in it's holster in my hand. I'll walk straight to a staff member and hand it to them, so that they can verify that it's cleared, and what my intentions are for it.

I can't tell you how many times I've tried to stop someone in the middle of a draw of a LOADED handgun in the middle of my (then) crowded store, only for them to pull the mag out quickly, rack the slide and PULL THE TRIGGER, before I can get my hand on it. I've also had occasion to have a half-dozen or so loaded handguns pointed at my midsection, because people don't have enough muzzle control while they are trying to clear their gun.

If you're in your car, draw as normal and point it straight towards the ground, between your feet, and clear. Don't let someone see you do it, either. It has "warranted alarm" from me in the past.

Bear 45/70 · Dec 25, 2007

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G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

Very few times in my life have I ever felt the need to clear my weapon in a commercial environment. If I'm in a gunshop and find a holster I might like, I'll either ask to see one of their 1911's, and check for fit (how much of a sweat guard it has, covers or doesn't cover the mag release, etc.). If that won't solve my curiosity, I'll either:

1) Tell one of the staff members what my intentions are and ask how THEY would like me to proceed. This puts the ball in their court, and lets them operate under a condition of control. Having been on the other side of the counter, we appreciate that. Often times I'll just hand my gun (still in it's holster) to them, after telling them its "cocked and locked, with a round chambered" and let them clear it.

2) Go out to my vehicle and come back in, carrying my UNLOADED weapon in it's holster in my hand. I'll walk straight to a staff member and hand it to them, so that they can verify that it's cleared, and what my intentions are for it.

I can't tell you how many times I've tried to stop someone in the middle of a draw of a LOADED handgun in the middle of my (then) crowded store, only for them to pull the mag out quickly, rack the slide and PULL THE TRIGGER, before I can get my hand on it. I've also had occasion to have a half-dozen or so loaded handguns pointed at my midsection, because people don't have enough muzzle control while they are trying to clear their gun.

If you're in your car, draw as normal and point it straight towards the ground, between your feet, and clear. Don't let someone see you do it, either. It has "warranted alarm" from me in the past.

Personal Attack Deleted

TechnoWeenie · Dec 25, 2007

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

Yea and when they just steal the whole car, easier than opening the safe then and there, and take it somewhere where they have whatever time it takes to get the safe open.

You don't know my car.. It's not going anywhere short of being towed, and even if it IS, it transmits it's coords. every 30 seconds, even if it's been put 'underground', it'll still transmit it's last known location.

G20-IWB24/7 · Dec 25, 2007

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

Very few times in my life have I ever felt the need to clear my weapon in a commercial environment. If I'm in a gunshop and find a holster I might like, I'll either ask to see one of their 1911's, and check for fit (how much of a sweat guard it has, covers or doesn't cover the mag release, etc.). If that won't solve my curiosity, I'll either:

1) Tell one of the staff members what my intentions are and ask how THEY would like me to proceed. This puts the ball in their court, and lets them operate under a condition of control. Having been on the other side of the counter, we appreciate that. Often times I'll just hand my gun (still in it's holster) to them, after telling them its "cocked and locked, with a round chambered" and let them clear it.

2) Go out to my vehicle and come back in, carrying my UNLOADED weapon in it's holster in my hand. I'll walk straight to a staff member and hand it to them, so that they can verify that it's cleared, and what my intentions are for it.

I can't tell you how many times I've tried to stop someone in the middle of a draw of a LOADED handgun in the middle of my (then) crowded store, only for them to pull the mag out quickly, rack the slide and PULL THE TRIGGER, before I can get my hand on it. I've also had occasion to have a half-dozen or so loaded handguns pointed at my midsection, because people don't have enough muzzle control while they are trying to clear their gun.

If you're in your car, draw as normal and point it straight towards the ground, between your feet, and clear. Don't let someone see you do it, either. It has "warranted alarm" from me in the past.

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Personal Attack Deleted

Why is it that is seems that you always have a "personal issue" with my comments and opinions. On the last thread, when I asked you about a couple of things, all you wanted to do was say that "we probably won't find a middle ground, so lets just agree about that." And that was without even responding to my legitimate questions. No one else had a problem with what I've been saying. What am I missing, please, give me your overpriced wisdom!I feel I'm a reasonable person. What did I say that pissed you off here?

Bear 45/70 · Dec 25, 2007

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

Very few times in my life have I ever felt the need to clear my weapon in a commercial environment. If I'm in a gunshop and find a holster I might like, I'll either ask to see one of their 1911's, and check for fit (how much of a sweat guard it has, covers or doesn't cover the mag release, etc.). If that won't solve my curiosity, I'll either:

1) Tell one of the staff members what my intentions are and ask how THEY would like me to proceed. This puts the ball in their court, and lets them operate under a condition of control. Having been on the other side of the counter, we appreciate that. Often times I'll just hand my gun (still in it's holster) to them, after telling them its "cocked and locked, with a round chambered" and let them clear it.

2) Go out to my vehicle and come back in, carrying my UNLOADED weapon in it's holster in my hand. I'll walk straight to a staff member and hand it to them, so that they can verify that it's cleared, and what my intentions are for it.

I can't tell you how many times I've tried to stop someone in the middle of a draw of a LOADED handgun in the middle of my (then) crowded store, only for them to pull the mag out quickly, rack the slide and PULL THE TRIGGER, before I can get my hand on it. I've also had occasion to have a half-dozen or so loaded handguns pointed at my midsection, because people don't have enough muzzle control while they are trying to clear their gun.

If you're in your car, draw as normal and point it straight towards the ground, between your feet, and clear. Don't let someone see you do it, either. It has "warranted alarm" from me in the past.

Click to expand...

Personal Attack Deleted

If that was a personal attack you guys haven't a clue as to what a personal attack is. So now it's OK for him to spout BS but it's not OK to call him on it. This place is getting as bad as the liberal sites with the censorship.

G20-IWB24/7 · Dec 25, 2007

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G20-IWB24/7 · Dec 25, 2007

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

Very few times in my life have I ever felt the need to clear my weapon in a commercial environment. If I'm in a gunshop and find a holster I might like, I'll either ask to see one of their 1911's, and check for fit (how much of a sweat guard it has, covers or doesn't cover the mag release, etc.). If that won't solve my curiosity, I'll either:

1) Tell one of the staff members what my intentions are and ask how THEY would like me to proceed. This puts the ball in their court, and lets them operate under a condition of control. Having been on the other side of the counter, we appreciate that. Often times I'll just hand my gun (still in it's holster) to them, after telling them its "cocked and locked, with a round chambered" and let them clear it.

2) Go out to my vehicle and come back in, carrying my UNLOADED weapon in it's holster in my hand. I'll walk straight to a staff member and hand it to them, so that they can verify that it's cleared, and what my intentions are for it.

I can't tell you how many times I've tried to stop someone in the middle of a draw of a LOADED handgun in the middle of my (then) crowded store, only for them to pull the mag out quickly, rack the slide and PULL THE TRIGGER, before I can get my hand on it. I've also had occasion to have a half-dozen or so loaded handguns pointed at my midsection, because people don't have enough muzzle control while they are trying to clear their gun.

If you're in your car, draw as normal and point it straight towards the ground, between your feet, and clear. Don't let someone see you do it, either. It has "warranted alarm" from me in the past.

Click to expand...

Personal Attack Deleted

Click to expand...

If that was a personal attack you guys haven't a clue as to what a personal attack is. So now it's OK for him to spout BS but it's not OK to call him on it. This place is getting as bad as the liberal sites with the censorship.

I'm trying to be civil, but I'm still unaware of what your problem is with me and my posts. I'm here to discuss firearms and the legal (and reasonable) carry and use of those firearms. (My previous posts prove it.) Honestly, I want to know why I am being targeted here on a site that I thought would be useful to be a member of. I sincerely apologize for whatever I may have said to set you off. I am a reasonable person, so please be reasonable with me here and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Clearing a firearm in public.

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