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Duty to Retreat, Verbal Warning

TEX1N

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VAopencarry wrote:
I have searched around VA Code specifically, 18.2 Chapter 4. I can't find anything regarding Castle Doctrine-Duty to Retreat and give a verbal warning before shooting in self defense in your home. I am inclined to think such verbage does not exist. Case law? Some knucklehead, who I would usually never give any credence to what he says regarding the law, said he learned this in a college law class. Any help here?
Um, is this the same "knucklehead" that you and I have had a conversation about? Because if it is I'm pretty sure that I took the same con law class as him, with the same professor. And I can tell you that he needs to pay more attention in class, because I don't remember any of his castle doctrine claims being discussed in that class...
 

Smurfologist

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I was taught that the following three things must bepresent before you can use deadly force (which should be used if all other means have failed, i.e. locks on doors, verbal commands, etc.) whether you are in your home, or not:

1) Ability (the perp musthave the capabilityto inflict serious bodily harm to you or someone else)

2) Opportunity (the perp must have themeans to inflict serious bodily harm to you or someone else)

3) Intent (the perp must have shown a desire to inflict serious bodily harm to you or someone else)

If any one of the three are missing, you should not use deadly force. If you do, you will have a tough time justifying why you used it in a court of law.

Obviously, if someone has broken into your home, you grab your .40 cal, and, youyell "Get out, or I will bust a cap in you're ass,"and, they come toward you orsomeone else, you will be put in a situation to preservelife if the perp doesn't run for their life.

A Castle Doctrine will help Virginians in a murder case or wrongful death civil suit since (in my opinion) it will take a lot of the guess work out of why the perp broke into your home. Just my two cents.

2nd Amendment........Use it........Or, lose it!!:X
 

SouthernBoy

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Smurfologist wrote:
I was taught that the following three things must bepresent before you can use deadly force (which should be used if all other means have failed, i.e. locks on doors, verbal commands, etc.) whether you are in your home, or not:

1) Ability (the perp musthave the capabilityto inflict serious bodily harm to you or someone else)

2) Opportunity (the perp must have themeans to inflict serious bodily harm to you or someone else)

3) Intent (the perp must have shown a desire to inflict serious bodily harm to you or someone else)

If any one of the three are missing, you should not use deadly force. If you do, you will have a tough time justifying why you used it in a court of law.

Obviously, if someone has broken into your home, you grab your .40 cal, and, youyell "Get out, or I will bust a cap in you're ass,"and, they come toward you orsomeone else, you will be put in a situation to preservelife if the perp doesn't run for their life.

A Castle Doctrine will help Virginians in a murder case or wrongful death civil suit since (in my opinion) it will take a lot of the guess work out of why the perp broke into your home. Just my two cents.

2nd Amendment........Use it........Or, lose it!!:X
I learned that these were the three basic criteria;

1. Means.
2. Conveyed intent.
3. Proximity.
 

beradcee

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I live with the belief that anyone who is only intending on stealing my stuff is not going to break in knowing that I am home. If someone is coming into my home while I am in there, they have other things in mind. Being as I live in a trailer, with me and my wife at one end, and our 1 year old is at the other end, anyone who comes in my house is between me and my child...game over.
 

peter nap

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LEO 229 wrote:
I would hate to be in court and be asked... "Why didn't you just lock yourself in the back room"" or "Is there a reason why you did not try to just get away?"

Make sure you have valid reasons to justify why you shot the intruder.


That brings up another question since people who break in (Home invaders are different) rarely fight when confronted. They either lay down when told or run....usually run.
How many here have a pair of handcuffs? They are important especially where police response time can be a half hour or better.

It gets real hard to explain why you shot him fifteen minutes after you told the dispatcher he was in custody!
 

Smurfologist

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SouthernBoy wrote:
Smurfologist wrote:
I was taught that the following three things must bepresent before you can use deadly force (which should be used if all other means have failed, i.e. locks on doors, verbal commands, etc.) whether you are in your home, or not:

1) Ability (the perp musthave the capabilityto inflict serious bodily harm to you or someone else)

2) Opportunity (the perp must have themeans to inflict serious bodily harm to you or someone else)

3) Intent (the perp must have shown a desire to inflict serious bodily harm to you or someone else)

If any one of the three are missing, you should not use deadly force. If you do, you will have a tough time justifying why you used it in a court of law.

Obviously, if someone has broken into your home, you grab your .40 cal, and, youyell "Get out, or I will bust a cap in you're ass,"and, they come toward you orsomeone else, you will be put in a situation to preservelife if the perp doesn't run for their life.

A Castle Doctrine will help Virginians in a murder case or wrongful death civil suit since (in my opinion) it will take a lot of the guess work out of why the perp broke into your home. Just my two cents.

2nd Amendment........Use it........Or, lose it!!:X
I learned that these were the three basic criteria;

1. Means.
2. Conveyed intent.
3. Proximity.

Works for me!

2nd Amendment........Use it........Or, lose it!!:X
 

LEO 229

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peter nap wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
I would hate to be in court and be asked... "Why didn't you just lock yourself in the back room"" or "Is there a reason why you did not try to just get away?"

Make sure you have valid reasons to justify why you shot the intruder.
That brings up another question since people who break in (Home invaders are different) rarely fight when confronted. They either lay down when told or run....usually run.
How many here have a pair of handcuffs? They are important especially where police response time can be a half hour or better.

It gets real hard to explain why you shot him fifteen minutes after you told the dispatcher he was in custody!
As a citizen... not sure I want to get that close to someone. You need two hands to apply the cuffs so that means you need to drop the gun. Why approach the danger needlessly.
 

peter nap

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As a citizen... not sure I want to get that close to someone. You need two hands to apply the cuffs so that means you need to drop the gun. Why approach the danger needlessly.

It's a risk and an unnecessary one if there is a quick response time. If not, the whole situation is iffy anyway. You don't know what weapons he has and you have to holster your weapon to search him.

I've found that the longer you give an unrestrained prisoner to think about how to get away, the bigger the chance he will. I like to get him cuffed while things are still confusing and he's still obeying commands.
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Neplusultra

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peter nap wrote:
As a citizen... not sure I want to get that close to someone. You need two hands to apply the cuffs so that means you need to drop the gun. Why approach the danger needlessly.

It's a risk and an unnecessary one if there is a quick response time. If not, the whole situation is iffy anyway. You don't know what weapons he has and you have to holster your weapon to search him.

I've found that the longer you give an unrestrained prisoner to think about how to get away, the bigger the chance he will. I like to get him cuffed while things are still confusing and he's still obeying commands.
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I have thumb cuffs in my glove box, I normally don't carry them with me. I'm not sure why LEO says it takes two hands to apply them? I can do it with one, as long as the guy in complying. I wouldn't try to do so unless he was compliant or if I had help. If he's fighting you it's too dangerous to get close to him by yourself, I would say at least....
 

LEO 229

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Neplusultra wrote:
I have thumb cuffs in my glove box, I normally don't carry them with me. I'm not sure why LEO says it takes two hands to apply them? I can do it with one, as long as the guy in complying. I wouldn't try to do so unless he was compliant or if I had help. If he's fighting you it's too dangerous to get close to him by yourself, I would say at least....
Let me see...... Because I have 15 years experience cuffing people?? ;)

You have people of all different sizes. Some guys are larger than others and you cannot possibly cuff them!! You needto use twopairs of cuffs!!

Some people are not as flexible and even if they are absolutely compliant... they CANNOT get their wrists behind their back close enough for you to cuff them you without pulling them closer.

It is possible to cuff someone one handed.... but they have to be the perfect candidate AND they must be very willing to allow you to cuff them.

The problem you will run into is that guy that is NOT going to go with the program. He sticks his arms under his body and declines your request.

While your busy negotiating with him... he obtains a gun and at just the right moment starts kicking you. He catches you off guard...he pullshis gun out and since you are only two feet away in the dark... he easily shoots you dead!
 

peter nap

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I might have to back up on this a little. 229 is right. Cuffing suspects is an art. Trying to cuff someone with one hand and your weapon out, is a recipe for disaster.

When I talked about a homeowner using handcuffs, I was talking about a completely compliant suspect.

Maybe it wasn't such a good idea at that.....:uhoh:
 

LEO 229

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peter nap wrote:
I might have to back up on this a little. 229 is right. Cuffing suspects is an art. Trying to cuff someone with one hand and your weapon out, is a recipe for disaster.

When I talked about a homeowner using handcuffs, I was talking about a completely compliant suspect.

Maybe it wasn't such a good idea at that.....:uhoh:
Imagine actually doing it...

You have to do so many things now all at the same time....

  • Hold gun in strong hand
  • Keep finger off trigger
  • Hold cuffs in weak hand
  • Watch his lags
  • Keep gun pointed at subject
  • Make sure his friend is not around the corner
  • Look at the target wrist
  • Get in close
  • Watch his hands
  • Press the cuff on the first wrist
  • Ask guy to bend hand in to expose the other wrist
  • Pull cuff towards the center
  • Press the cuff .....
  • JUMP BACK WHEN HE TURNS AND ATTACKS YOU!
  • SHOOT SHOOT!!!
It is just not wise or necessary.
 

SouthernBoy

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Well, this is another issue that begs an answer and I'm glad it has been brought up.

So now you've pulled down on a BG only to have him suddenly cease to be an immediate threat.. he has stopped his advance on you and is just standing there. Probably not the best idea to shoot him at this point, so you command him to lie face down on the floor, arms and legs spread eagle.. and he does as commanded.

At this point, you have to wait until the troops arrive. I would say that when you issued the command to lie down, you should also inform the BG that if he does not do as told or attempts to get up, you will open fire.

Question is, where are you legally in all of this IF he starts talking to you and decides to try to get up and you shoot him? This could be a very diffifult move on the part of the GG. It is also the reason why I have long believed that you want to keep the 911 dispatcher on the line until the police show up, just in case something like this does happen. You have a taped record of your commands and his actions.

Still, where are you legally in all of this??
 

peter nap

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Having a recording is a mixed blessing. When you confront him things get exciting fast. Your shouting commands and he's probably following them. It's very easy to say something that will come back and bite you later.
 

LEO 229

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I do not feel that you can get away with shooting him if there is no threat.
 

eyesopened

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I agree, after he has complied and there is no longer a threat you can no longer use deadly force on the BG. If he gets up and walks out the door, are you going to shoot him in the back? Now if he gets up and advances on your position or at your loved ones, then it is my belief they are making a new threat. I suppose you can argue that the very action of the BG getting up after you've ordered them down is a threatening action, but you better hope the jury is on your side.

If you have the 911 operator on the line with you, you could describe the BG's actions verbally. Yell, "Don't come any closer or I'll shoot!". If you have to fire, you'll have your warning on record.
 

LEO 229

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eyesopened wrote:
I agree, after he has complied and there is no longer a threat you can no longer use deadly force on the BG. If he gets up and walks out the door, are you going to shoot him in the back? Now if he gets up and advances on your position or at your loved ones, then it is my belief they are making a new threat. I suppose you can argue that the very action of the BG getting up after you've ordered them down is a threatening action, but you better hope the jury is on your side.

If you have the 911 operator on the line with you, you could describe the BG's actions verbally. Yell, "Don't come any closer or I'll shoot!". If you have to fire, you'll have your warning on record.
Exactly!!

Any person that advances on a person that is armed must be intendingto do harm. Ifyou do not act.. he could take your gun away and use it on your and your family.

So unless you have mace or some other weapon to use first.. you may need to shoot on the advancing threat.
 

PT111

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eyesopened wrote:
I agree, after he has complied and there is no longer a threat you can no longer use deadly force on the BG. If he gets up and walks out the door, are you going to shoot him in the back? Now if he gets up and advances on your position or at your loved ones, then it is my belief they are making a new threat. I suppose you can argue that the very action of the BG getting up after you've ordered them down is a threatening action, but you better hope the jury is on your side.

If you have the 911 operator on the line with you, you could describe the BG's actions verbally. Yell, "Don't come any closer or I'll shoot!". If you have to fire, you'll have your warning on record.
I would really hate to be standing before a jury trying to defend myself for shooting a guy in handcuffs. You better have a darn good lawyer, sympathetic jury and lots of back up documentation.
 

SouthernBoy

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LEO 229 wrote:
eyesopened wrote:
I agree, after he has complied and there is no longer a threat you can no longer use deadly force on the BG. If he gets up and walks out the door, are you going to shoot him in the back? Now if he gets up and advances on your position or at your loved ones, then it is my belief they are making a new threat. I suppose you can argue that the very action of the BG getting up after you've ordered them down is a threatening action, but you better hope the jury is on your side.

If you have the 911 operator on the line with you, you could describe the BG's actions verbally. Yell, "Don't come any closer or I'll shoot!". If you have to fire, you'll have your warning on record.
Exactly!!

Any person that advances on a person that is armed must be intendingto do harm. Ifyou do not act.. he could take your gun away and use it on your and your family.

So unless you have mace or some other weapon to use first.. you may need to shoot on the advancing threat.
Yes, this is what I meant.. I guess I didn't explain completely. You have the BG on the floor and shortly, he decides to get up and continue his advance towards you. You have little choice in this scenario, I should think. On the other hand, if he gets up and runs out of your house, I would let him go.. unless he has just killed a family member.
 

LEO 229

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SouthernBoy wrote:
Yes, this is what I meant.. I guess I didn't explain completely. You have the BG on the floor and shortly, he decides to get up and continue his advance towards you. You have little choice in this scenario, I should think. On the other hand, if he gets up and runs out of your house, I would let him go.. unless he has just killed a family member.
Sounds about right....
 
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