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Thread: Police use stun gun on man accused of having gun in crowded mall. Madison, WI

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    http://www.chippewa.com/articles/200.../d8to5dp84.txt


    MADISON, Wis. - A man accused of flashing a gun at a crowded Madison mall on Monday was felled by a police officer's stun gun after he resisted attempts to remove him from the area, police said. No weapon was found.

    The 44-year-old man was taken to a hospital and later released.

    The incident occurred about 1:20 p.m. in the food court of the West Towne Mall, which was full of customers on the final shopping day before Christmas.

    Police responded to a report of a man seen with a gun. Officers located the man and attempted to escort him from the area, according to a Madison Police Department incident report. The man had his hand in his pocket and began to physically resist, the report said.

    "The suspect then made statements that he was going to punch an officer," the report said.

    Officers tried to wrestle him to the ground but were unable to do so, the report said. Another officer who saw the struggle deployed a Taser.

    One of the stun-gun probes struck the man and the other struck his wife. Both people were handcuffed but the wife was later released with no charges or injuries.

    The man said he had a heart condition so the Madison Fire Department brought him to an emergency room, where he was evaluated, cited for resisting and obstructing arrest, and released.

    http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/263847

    Police use Taser on man at West Towne Mall By Deborah Ziff dziff@madison.com A fracas in the food court at West Towne Mall amidst the crowd of last-minute Christmas shoppers Monday afternoon ended when Madison police used a Taser to subdue a man who they thought had a gun.
    Police used the Taser on Major T. Lemon, 44, because he was resisting officers, Sgt. David Samson said. Police did not find a gun. One of the prongs of the Taser also hit Lemon 's wife, who was nearby, police said.
    A caller told police a man with a gun was standing in the food court at about 1:30 p.m. Police in military-style police uniforms tried to escort Lemon from the mall, Samson said.
    Lemon had his hand in his pocket, and told officers he was going to punch one of them, Samson said. Because of the report he had a gun and Lemon 's resistance, officers attempted to take him to the ground, but couldn 't gain footing because of the wet tile, police said. An additional officer responding to the scene used a Taser, Samson said.
    Lemon and his wife were both handcuffed, but she was released with no charges. Lemon was evaluated at St. Mary 's Hospital because he said he had a heart condition. He was cited for resisting police and released, police said.


    Merry Christmas, Peoples Republic of Madistan. If the paramilitarized GRU allows.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Police in military-style police uniforms tried to escort Lemon from the mall, Samson said.
    Lemon had his hand in his pocket, and told officers he was going to punch one of them, Samson said.
    Any lawyer will tell someone that it is not smart to physically resist officers or make threats of harming them. You may have to sort out the mess in court, but resisting will guarantee you having to go to court, and your charges of resisting police may or may not be lifted depending on the DA and judge.

    Thank you for noting the "police in military style police uniforms". The militarization of the police in this country is another travesty. Everybody knows they don't want the national guard patrolling the streets and enforcing laws they have never read. But what about when the police are looking more like the military every day?I have been to Paris and seen the military patrolling with their bullpup rifles, and I have also seen the miliary and police working together when they descended upon the Arc de Triomphe apparantly looking for a criminal when I was there. We don't want this in America!!!





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    What is a military-style police uniform and how does that differ from a regular police-style uniform?

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    There are almost 2000 G00gle hits on 'paramilitarization.' Believe nothing you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your pre-existing world view.

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    PT111 wrote:
    What is a military-style police uniform and how does that differ from a regular police-style uniform?
    Cops in BDU's, wearing knee and elbow pads, wearing helmets and tactical gloves, maybe body armor (with SAPI plates, not just a vest under their shirt), tactical vests with rifle mag pouches and pistols holstered across their chests, etc.

    All the regular LE I know wear issued trousers and button-down uniform shirts, and either baseball caps, widebrimmed hats (don't know the proper name for them), or no cover at all. The only guys I see in BDU's are the SWAT team, and the Beaufort-Jasper Multi-Jurisdictional Drug Task Force when actually conducting a raid.

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    Sounds to me like this was an unlawful arrest as a mere report of a man with a gun is not grounds for even a Terry stop - the Virgrinia Supreme Court recently held that citizens retain the right to use reasonable force to resist unlawful arrest. Hill v. Commonwealth (Va. 2001), available at http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1783001.doc.

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    Mike, this was not in the free Commonwealth of Virginia, but in the Peoples Republic of Wisconsin, where citizens do not enjoy the right to carry personal defense equipment. Up in Cheese Land, according to their governor, guns are evil.

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    Open carry is completely legal in Wisconsin. The-powers-that-be exercise extra-legal powers - and are excused by the leftist-statists NRA of Madistan and Swillwaukee.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA - Wisconsin NRA - KM Freekin' filthy $$$

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Open carry is completely legal in Wisconsin. The-powers-that-be exercise extra-legal powers - and are excused by the leftist-statists NRA of Madistan and Swillwaukee.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA - Wisconsin NRA - KM Freekin' filthy $$$
    What is it with you and the NRA? I'm just curious as to why you appear to hate that organization so much. No offense intended by the question.

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    No offense taken. The reasons are archived at keepandbeararms.com and nrawol.net. Believe nothing you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your pre-existing world view.

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    Mike wrote:
    Sounds to me like this was an unlawful arrest as a mere report of a man with a gun is not grounds for even a Terry stop - the Virgrinia Supreme Court recently held that citizens retain the right to use reasonable force to resist unlawful arrest. Hill v. Commonwealth (Va. 2001), available at http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1783001.doc.
    Yes, but officers are allowed to talk to anyone just like a regular citizen.

    I don't think any of us will try to argue that this guy made the right choices about how he handled the situation.

    The article is poorly written as well. Without a time line its difficult to judge the officers response. Did he make threats soon after being contacted? etc..

    I also don't mind police wearing heavier vests. 20 years ago, no. Now that ARs are so plentiful (hopefully the ammo will be next!) police should be equipped to deal with those situations.

    Regardless of attire, its all about the professional attitude.

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    http://www.madison.com/tct/news/263855

    12/25/2007 6:27 am

    Madison police scuffled with and then Tasered a 44-year-old man at lunchtime on Christmas Eve in the crowded food court at West Towne Mall. The man's wife also was struck by a Taser probe accidentally.

    Officers were sent to the mall just before 1:30 p.m. looking for a man with a gun, after someone at the mall called 911 anonymously. Officers arrived dressed in full military-style police gear and observed a man matching the suspect's description standing in the middle of the food court.

    Police attempted to make contact with the suspect, later identified as Major T. Lemon, and escort him from the crowded mall area. According to police, Lemon had his hand in his pocket and began to physically resist. At that point, officers took control of Lemon's other arm.

    Lemon allegedly then made statements that he was going to punch an officer. Based on the weapon information and Lemon's physical resistance, officers attempted to place him on the floor. Because of the wet, snow-covered tile, they were unable to take Lemon to the ground.

    An additional officer responded, observed the struggle, and deployed his Taser device. One of the probes struck Lemon and the other probe struck Lemon's wife. Both were secured in handcuffs. Lemon's wife was later released with no charges or injuries. No weapon was found on Lemon.

    Lemon made statements that he had a heart condition, so the Madison Fire Department responded and later took him to St. Mary Hospital's emergency room, where he was evaluated medically, cited by police for resisting and obstructing, then released.

    "Officers received specific information about an individual in the mall. They received clothing information and other types of information about this individual at the mall and that this individual had a gun. That's why they approached him," said Sgt. David Samson.

    The altercation happened in front of the gelato booth Paciugo.

    "I didn't think it was right. A bunch of people were in here shopping. There were kids in here," said Tara Emery-Walls, general manager at Arby's.

    Those eating in the food court quickly left their tables and scattered, she said.
    "It's not right to do that on Christmas," said Emery-Walls, who added that the police should have waited to talk to Lemon until he was out of the mall. "They don't have to bring that in here."

    A young woman working at Paciugo said the Italian ice cream stand was not busy at the time. Everyone was watching the incident.

    The worker, who wouldn't give her name, said she was slightly afraid and called the incident "freaky."

    She said the struggle lasted for about two minutes.

    West Towne Mall general manager Paul Matyas said his security officer was the one who identified Lemon for police.

    He called the incident an isolated situation. "We promote a safe and friendly shopping environment," Matyas said.

    Lemon has a long history of arrests, dating back to 1990. In that time, he has been charged with disorderly conduct nine times.

    In an interview Monday on WISC-TV, Lemon said he was unfairly targeted by police and was just out shopping with his family. Family members talked of suing the police department."

    It obviously is an unfortunate incident," said Sgt. Samson, "but the officers have one of two ways of handling a situation like that. In either of those cases, the officers have to do something."

    He said officers can do what they did, which was make contact with the person and assess the situation. Or they could simply identify the person from the dispatcher's description and go in with guns drawn and order that person to the ground.

    "Obviously, with the lack of cooperation and resistance, that causes the officers to escalate to gain control of the situation," Samson said.


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    Lee wrote:
    Yes, but officers are allowed to talk to anyone just like a regular citizen.
    And without reasonable articulable suspicion justifying involuntary custodial arrest, the citizen is not required to respond or identify himself. In Wisconsin, one must be suspected of crime for the LEO to have any authority - the RAS.

    I don't think any of us will try to argue that this guy made the right choices about how he handled the situation.
    Which "guy," Lemon the victim or Samson the cop? If the articles are anywhere near the truth, Lemon did exactly what he needed to own the Madistan PD!

    Did he make threats soon after being contacted? etc..
    A combative statement in an altercation instigated by LEOs changes status at some point in the timeline? Hypothetically, it is a 'threat' until the cops use their big voices the second time and then it is verbally combative? Obviously I disagree with this client.

    I also don't mind police wearing heavier vests. 20 years ago, no. Now that ARs are so plentiful (hopefully the ammo will be next!) police should be equipped to deal with those situations.
    "AR," meaning what, Automatic Rifles, Armalite Rifles, Assault Rifles? Which do you believe should be denied citizens, and the ammo too? Please be clear?

    Regardless of attire, its all about the professional attitude.
    I find the continuing debate about 'professionalism' amusing in light of my career http://www.nnsy1.navy.mil/DeptLinks/test_division.htm and of the TSA's (epitomizing ne'er-do-wells' promotion) "to professionalize you must federalize."

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Lee wrote:
    Yes, but officers are allowed to talk to anyone just like a regular citizen.
    And without reasonable articulable suspicion justifying involuntary custodial arrest, the citizen is not required to respond or identify himself. In Wisconsin, one must be suspected of crime for the LEO to have any authority - the RAS.

    I don't think any of us will try to argue that this guy made the right choices about how he handled the situation.
    Which "guy," Lemon the victim or Samson the cop? If the articles are anywhere near the truth, Lemon did exactly what he needed to own the Madistan PD!

    Did he make threats soon after being contacted? etc..
    A combative statement in an altercation instigated by LEOs changes status at some point in the timeline? Hypothetically, it is a 'threat' until the cops use their big voices the second time and then it is verbally combative? Obviously I disagree with this client.

    I also don't mind police wearing heavier vests. 20 years ago, no. Now that ARs are so plentiful (hopefully the ammo will be next!) police should be equipped to deal with those situations.
    "AR," meaning what, Automatic Rifles, Armalite Rifles, Assault Rifles? Which do you believe should be denied citizens, and the ammo too? Please be clear?

    Regardless of attire, its all about the professional attitude.
    I find the continuing debate about 'professionalism' amusing in light of my career http://www.nnsy1.navy.mil/DeptLinks/test_division.htm and of the TSA's (epitomizing ne'er-do-wells' promotion) "to professionalize you must federalize."

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******
    I think you too my post the wrong way, I should have chosen my words more carefully.

    Officers only need RAS to detain someone, and PC to make an arrest. I have a feeling the crux of our disagreement was if the officers had RAS to detain him long enough to ensure he was "OK". When I OC I have no problem with officers asking me a few questions just to be sure every thing is ok. Yes, I know I can be macho and walk away. Yes, I know I don't have to answer their questions. Its just common respect. If I take the time to educate my local LEOs, when they see me and my fellow OCers, they are more likely to leave us alone. Teach a man to fish, I say.

    If the officers could articulate RS, then they would have the authority to move him to a more quiet area to ask him their questions. After he made threats of physical violence, it then becomes PC for arrest. Yes, I know we all love to throw around "resist unlawful arrest", but against 4 cops in military style uniforms is neither the time nor place for it. Besides, you have better know for damn certain without any doubts it was unlawful. Its going to come down to why the officers thought they had RAS to detain him, and how well they write it in their reports.

    Also, I should have used quotes and said "AR" style rifles. My comment about the ammo was just my own frustration about not being able to find any reasonably priced .223 here in Colorado. In no way am I (or will I ever) advocate for the control of guns or ammo. I was merely suggesting with the increase in rifles, police should be allowed to wear armor that defeats such rounds. Not to mention concealable armor is hell on your lower back.

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    I hope that you will join the other discussions on the requirements for proper detention and arrest.

    It is my impression that RAS and PC are inextricably linked - perhaps via Terry.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    I hope that you will join the other discussions on the requirements for proper detention and arrest.

    It is my impression that RAS and PC are inextricably linked - perhaps via Terry.
    I'd love to!

    I do agree that they are both linked, and Terry v. Ohio certainly is a binding issue.

    However, I believe they are both very separate levels of seizure with different requirements for both.

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    What do you mean by use of 'seizure' in this context? Doesn't seizure usually refer to property, and custody to arrest?

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    What do you mean by use of 'seizure' in this context? Doesn't seizure usually refer to property, and custody to arrest?
    What I meant was a 'seizure' of your person. The USC views seizures in two lights, a 'detention' which is a minor investigatory "stop" (Terry) and a full-on "arrest". In a detention a person is still 'seized', however just not to degree a person is 'seized' when they are under custodial arrest.

    I like referring to arrest as a seizure as it helps me remember the 4th. Its just a personal thing, sorry for the confusion.

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    physically resist officers or make threats of harming them
    No doubt the article is reporting what the police spokesman is claiming. who knows what really happened.

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    ilbob wrote:
    physically resist officers or make threats of harming them
    No doubt the article is reporting what the police spokesman is claiming. who knows what really happened.
    I'm not going to comment on the actions of the police until I know all the true details of the situation. That may take a while.

    As for the subject, we all know that past behaviors/convictions of a suspect have no bearing on any current charges.
    However, according to CCAP he has several criminal convictions for Battery, Disorderly Conduct, Theft, Receiving Stolen Property, Resisting an Officer, Obstructing, Unlawful use of the Telephone (Threatens harm), and several traffic violations. On top of that he has civil actions against him for refusing to pay money he owes, including tax warrants, plus there are some civil injuctions against him (harassment restraining orders).

    It appears to me that Major Lemon may not be a very nice guy. Is it possible he exacerbated the situation by being a dickhead?



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    Unarmed man harassed, then assaulted by police at local mall.

    I wish Police would not take anonymous statements as facts. If the tipster isn't requiredto give ID, the suspect shouldn't be required to either.

    A long history of arrests should be irrelevant. Only a long history of convictions should matter.

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    PT111 wrote:
    What is a military-style police uniform and how does that differ from a regular police-style uniform?
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    just a guy, with a Glock wrote:
    Very few are harassing lawful citizens for carrying.
    And you are from what state, Wisconsin? Your personal anecdote is not a Wisconsin datum - it is a lie. The only inhibition on open carry in Wisconsin is the extra-legal harassment by cops.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    just a guy, with a Glock wrote:
    Well said ! I find it troubling that many gun rights folks and participants on this board immediately take the side of the "citizen" against the LEO. I know many officers that are verypro gun. Very few are harassing lawful citizens for carrying.

    Defending criminals like this Lemon character makes this board appear to be a gathering place of anti-Law enforcement, LAW breaker defending , government hating extremist. NOT a good impression to give.
    I'll goalong with the general impression of anti-Law enforecement and government hating extremist. There sees to be quite a few of those who regularly post here. The LAW breaker defending is a little different as it is according to what laws are broken. If it involves a citizen with a gun then they can do no wrong but anyone else is guilty as sin.

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    PT111 wrote:
    I'll goalong with the general impression of anti-Law enforecement and government hating extremist. There sees to be quite a few of those who regularly post here. The LAW breaker defending is a little different as it is according to what laws are broken. If it involves a citizen with a gun then they can do no wrong but anyone else is guilty as sin.
    Guess I missed all those posts. Please post some examples. Thanks

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