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Thread: Had the police called while I was shopping

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    I was shopping at the Winco on HWY 99 in Hazel Dell, WA. Two Winco employees approached me shortly after I entered the store and informed me that I couldn't carry a gun in the store. I asked to speak to a manager and asked if that was corporate policy. The employee told me he was the manager on duty and that I needed to leave. As I was leaving one of them told me they were on the phone with 911 and that 911 said to stay there until the police arrived so I went outside the store and waited for the police.

    The first officer who arrived told me to put my hands on my head and turn around which I did and he proceeded to disarm me. He was pretty upset that I would be carrying a firearm and told me that I was alarming people and he could arrest me. I told him that I disagreed with that and he asked me if I was a lawyer. He told me that I was alarming people and that he could arrest me for disorderly conduct. Now that I'm home I've looked up disorderly conduct and there is no way he could charge me with that crime.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.84.030

    Some other officers showed up and we had the same discussion. They told me I could be arrested. I asked if they had received the training bulletin. They seemed surprised and said yes they had received them but hadn't fully reviewed them. They told me that while I wasn't breaking the law was it worth spending the weekend in jail and paying $5,000 to a lawyer to get out of the charges. I asked the officer why he would charge me with a crime that he knew I wouldn't be convicted of. He said _he_ wouldn't do it but some officers might.

    All in all I spoke with three separate officers (they were sheriff's dept actually). They all tried to convince me that OC'ing was a bad idea and to just hide it. The first officer told me that he should have made me lay on the wet ground, cuffed me and then just taken me to jail. He wasn't nice at all the whole time. Very interesting encounter. At the end they gave me my Sig back and let me go. The whole thing was about 30 minutes or so, maybe more. Makes me wish I had gotten a tape recorded for Christmas.

    So, it sounds like there are training bulletins that have been issued to Clark County. Any way I could get a copy of those? Also I am interested in getting a copy of the 911 call. Any thoughts on the encounter would be appreciated.

    Also, does anyone have any info on WinCo corporate policy?

    Nathan





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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Man, you've had a bad week! First Wal-mart, now WinCo. I've never heard of them, but I guess they'll never see any my money in the future. Sorry about your recent experiences!

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    File a complain with the department. The officers were trying to use the law to diswade you from your peaceful and legal rights. You were just shopping, and they asked you to leave. You were doing just that when you were illegally detained and lectured incorrectly on open carry laws in the state.

    Some kind of recording device would also help.

    I hope you get an apology from them.


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    nofoa wrote:
    File a complain with the department. The officers were trying to use the law to diswade you from your peaceful and legal rights. You were just shopping, and they asked you to leave. You were doing just that when you were illegally detained and lectured incorrectly on open carry laws in the state.

    Some kind of recording device would also help.

    I hope you get an apology from them.
    I agree. It was definately a detainment as you felt you were not free to leave and that the encounter took far more than a reasonable amount of time to determine that you were not breaking any laws.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    You are alway within your rights to ask to have a supervisor come to the scene. I think these boys were not only uninformed but totally out of line. Their continuedthreats alone are enough to ask for a supervisor to come over and hear this BS.

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    Man that sounds like a bunch of horsecrap to me. Those officers need to get some common sense.

    Unfortunately most of those training memos never reach dispatchers, so they still dispatch cops to MAN WITH A G-GGGUN. I'm sure they'll learn now, though.

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    Sounds like you need to FOIA the officers notes, radio traffic, 911 call, and teletype. After you have the records, file a complaint with IA.

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    Nathan,

    sorry to hear you were illegally mistreated by those who are employeed to uphold the law. While you were waiting for the Deputies to arrive, it is too bad you couldn't have set up a video camera in a car pointing in the direction of where you were standing to tape the whole incident.



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    If anyone ever told me that they are on the line with 911 and 911 says I need to stay anywhere until the cops arrive I would kindly ask that the message be passed along to go sodomize themselves and leave.

    Oh, BTW anyone have a link to the law about "oppression while under color of law" or something like that?

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    nathan wrote:
    As I was leaving one of them told me they were on the phone with 911 and that 911 said to stay there until the police arrived so I went outside the store and waited for the police.
    You were curing your trespass. The dispatcher ordered you to violate the proprietor-agent's request. You did.

    Trespass law is as integral to gun carry as is self-defense law.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    Nathan,

    The actions of the employees were bad. There may becivil or criminalrecourse against them based upon what they told the 911 operator.

    Get the 911 tapes using a FOIA request.

    The actions of the officers were disgusting. I predict that the Police Department will not take significant action and will, in the end, try to ignore the incident. The way to fix this problem is to be a real pain in the a$$. The Chief of Police will care a lot less that his police have wronged you than hisrequirement to respond to two or three Freedom of Information Act requests.

    Good voice recorders are cheap, and they work.

    Many who OC in Virginia carry one. The link to prior thread:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/5671.html

    What is really important is that you and any others in the area make a point to open carry a lot. An open carryget togetherin the donut shop next to the police station would send an appropriate message.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Agent 47 wrote:
    If anyone ever told me that they are on the line with 911 and 911 says I need to stay anywhere until the cops arrive I would kindly ask that the message be passed along to go sodomize themselves and leave.

    Oh, BTW anyone have a link to the law about "oppression while under color of law" or something like that?
    The closest one I could find is official misconduct:
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.80.010



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    Somebody will get it pretty soon, but I know it is Sect. 18 of US code not RCW's. Although there may be a corollary in the RCW.

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    The 9-1-1 operator's got no authority to tell you to do anything.

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    +1 on the calls to file a complaint.

    Submit a FOIA request to the local department to provide you with the 911 call, the responding officer's report, and any other documented information pertaining to your detainment at XX: xX hrs on Dec XX, 2007.

    Once you have that information, file a formal complaint against the officers who ran you the attitude and were woefully misinformed and who ADMITTED to not fully reading the training document. Get IA involved as they unlawfully detained you without reasonable suspicion based on articulable facts that a crime was, is, or is about to be committed.

    The more complaints the officer has in his official jacket, the more that officer will be overlooked for promotion, pay raises and if the officer should ever be sued civilly for denial of civil rights under the color of authority, there will be a long litany of complaints in their jacket to back up their history of abuse of authority.

    Soon their department will see the officer as too big a liability and will either bench his abusive ass at a desk or fire him outright. The message will be spread around to other officer and departments that lawful gun owners won't be harassed and will take action against any officer who detains without reasonable articulable information of a crime in progress or about to happen.
    This is the tactic we are now using against officers who abuse their authority in many states, including the commonwealth.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    It would have been nice to have an audio recorder. There was so much conversation that it is impossible to post it all. I will be getting the 911 call and police report on Monday when the county building is open.

    At one point when I was talking with officer #2 and 3 I asked about getting a copy of the 911 call. Officer 2 said it was pretty much impossible. I said that it was my understanding that I could get it via the FOIA. Officer 3 told me I could go to the county building downtown and request a copy. He didn't say anything to correct officer 2 until after I mention FOIA.

    Officer 2 asked me at one point if I had any other guns on me and I told him no, he asked "Why not? You should carry a backup." I thought that was interesting.

    There was alot more but I don't have time to post it all right now.



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    I've read many encounters such as yours. It seems the police always seem to have the standard response, "are you a lawyer?" when it appears that you may know something about the law. What difference does it really make? Will they change the way that they are handling the situation? I think they are just using it as a tactic to be-little you when you say no. What would be the best response for that situation?

    Ken

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Puddin99 wrote:
    I've read many encounters such as yours. It seems the police always seem to have the standard response, "are you a lawyer?" when it appears that you may know something about the law. What difference does it really make? Will they change the way that they are handling the situation? I think they are just using it as a tactic to be-little you when you say no. What would be the best response for that situation?

    Ken
    The best response. . .is "Am I free to leave?"

    Don’t claim to be a lawyer, and don’t deny being a lawyer. Let them stew over IF you are or not. If you say the right things and know the lingo, they’ll infer you are. Police rely on the general public and criminals NOT knowing the law in order to make their cases for them. A citizen who knows all their rights and the law(I.E. an officer of the court) is not somebody they want to tangle with. They know they won’t be able to use their normal Modus Operandi[/i] of intimidation and coercion.
    But back to “Am I free to leave?”
    If they say no, then ask under what authority are you being held? They can only hold you (Detainment) if there is an ongoing investigation of a crime, or if they place you under arrest for a crime committed.

    If they state you are being detained, ask what the crime is they are investigating. If there is none, or if they hem and haw and give you the BS answer of "You'll have to ask the main responding officer." Demand to have a supervisor or shift commander on the scene ASAP.

    Otherwise say nothing, don't answer the "are you a lawyer" or any other question. Continue to state you have committed no crime, do not wish to be held against your will in absence of a crime, and continue to state you want a supervisor or shift commander ASAP.

    Take mental notes of badge numbers, names, what they stated (you should really have a digital audio recorder on) and the time everything occurred.

    During the AAR, chronicle everything and then file for the official reports, 911 tapes, dash cam tapes, personal officer recordings, police incident reports under the FOIA.

    Write up your official complaint and then go in and see the highest ranking official you can gain an audience with, along with the IA branch.

    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    Holy cow:what:

    I would start off by making every possible complaint you can about the stop... Is WinCo a local store or a chain? Complain to the store owners as well...

    I hope you are doing well... damn that sucks.

    Steve

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    Here it is Child...

    Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242
    Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law

    This statute makes it a crime for any person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom to willfully deprive or cause to be deprived from any person those rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S.

    This law further prohibits a person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation or custom to willfully subject or cause to be subjected any person to different punishments, pains, or penalties, than those prescribed for punishment of citizens on account of such person being an alien or by reason of his/her color or race.

    Acts under "color of any law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the bounds or limits of their lawful authority, but also acts done without and beyond the bounds of their lawful authority; provided that, in order for unlawful acts of any official to be done under "color of any law," the unlawful acts must be done while such official is purporting or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. This definition includes, in addition to law enforcement officials, individuals such as Mayors, Council persons, Judges, Nursing Home Proprietors, Security Guards, etc., persons who are bound by laws, statutes ordinances, or customs.

    Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to one year, or both, and if bodily injury results or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire shall be fined or imprisoned up to ten years or both, and if death results, or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

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    Puddin99 wrote:
    SNIP "are you a lawyer?" when it appears that you may know something about the law. What would be the best response for that situation?

    Ken
    Actually, its probably best not to respond at all, and ask your own question in a direction that forwards your strategy. For example, "Am I be detained, Officer?" Or, "Why am I being detained officer?""Who called?" "What was reported?" You want all the information you can get. The police know they can't get very far from reasonable suspicion to probable cause with a silent citizen. There is no reason you can't use police interview tactics against them.The more information you can get them to leak, the betterposition you will be in with a formal complaint or suit.

    If you're feeling like taking it to the line with them, you might ask "Will I get my rights back if I say I am lawyer?""Will you be more professional and respect my rights if I say I am lawyer?" "Oh? Only lawyers have rights?"

    Nathan, this was possibly an illegal Terry Stop and Terry weapon seizure. You need the 911 call recording and radio traffic recordings to see what the police were told.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Nathan; I am sorry to hear about the problems you encountered. All things considered I think you handled it pretty well.The cops knew theywere breaking the law and youwere not,yet they proceed to intimidate and harass you. The policehave the authority of the badge and when it is misused that can be very intimidating. Recordings will work provided you are not arrested. If you arearrested the police will have your recorder while you are in jail. After an illegal arrest what is a little illegal tape destruction?

    I doubt your complaint will go very far but you should file it anyway. If you can spare the costyoushould ask an attorney to file it for you. Or at least send a letter. It will carry considerably more weight than if you do it alone. He could also request the 911 tapes etc. Again it probably won't go anywheres but at least they will know you mean business. That way you can be sure the officers involved will have to explain their actions to some superior somewhere. There is nothing like posturing for a law suite to get the police attention.Puts themon noticeif they continue to harass you it could cost them. Besides that it will make you feel better. Also it wouldn't hurt for the attorney to send a note to the store informing them that open carry is not illegal in this state. Just so they don't create a situation where they get sued as a participant in a false arrest.

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    I can't understand why police would care about an obviously law abiding citizen carring a gun legally. Aren't there other things that are more important? I sure hope nothing like this happens again to you! (or me, or anyone for that matter)

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    They told me that while I wasn't breaking the law was it worth spending the weekend in jail and paying $5,000 to a lawyer to get out of the charges. I asked the officer why he would charge me with a crime that he knew I wouldn't be convicted of. He said _he_ wouldn't do it but some officers might.


    This to me is the money line. Stating that they would put you in jail and force you to spend $5000 is a clear violation of Art. 18 Sec 242.Translating the above another way:

    "I wouldn'tfalsely arrestyou to stop you for exercising your rights because that would seriously cut into my pension and advancement possibilities, plus if you actually prevailed in an article 18 Sec 242 action, I might get MY gun rights taken away and end up working in a gas station. However,you are in danger of some other poor officer arresting you and you then cutting a serious amount of money out of their budget through the actions of a hot shot lawyer. Look buster, just go home and stop bothering us with this Rights crap."


    Right after New Years I going to find out who is the best Lawyer out there and put him on retainer. (Cost =$500 / Gain in Peace of Mind = priceless) *


    *Found a really good voice recorder, solid memory, 7 hours of recording time with a good mic for $25 bucks. It fits easy in the knife pocket in jeans. Radio Shack

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    irfner wrote:
    Nathan; I am sorry to hear about the problems you encountered. All things considered I think you handled it pretty well.The cops knew theywere breaking the law and youwere not,yet they proceed to intimidate and harass you. The policehave the authority of the badge and when it is misused that can be very intimidating. Recordings will work provided you are not arrested. If you arearrested the police will have your recorder while you are in jail. After an illegal arrest what is a little illegal tape destruction?

    I doubt your complaint will go very far but you should file it anyway. If you can spare the costyoushould ask an attorney to file it for you. Or at least send a letter. It will carry considerably more weight than if you do it alone. He could also request the 911 tapes etc. Again it probably won't go anywheres but at least they will know you mean business. That way you can be sure the officers involved will have to explain their actions to some superior somewhere. There is nothing like posturing for a law suite to get the police attention.Puts themon noticeif they continue to harass you it could cost them. Besides that it will make you feel better. Also it wouldn't hurt for the attorney to send a note to the store informing them that open carry is not illegal in this state. Just so they don't create a situation where they get sued as a participant in a false arrest.
    You should check the Public Records Act.

    Read this section and the definitions.



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