Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 63

Thread: Fauquier deputy nags me for not informing him I had a weapon in the vehicle...

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,043

    Post imported post

    So, I was returning home from Winchester on Christmas Eve. I was preparing to exit 17 onto I-66 eastbound and was followed by a sherrif's deputy through the exit onto I-66 and pulled over.

    He approaches the vehicle all the while, I am sitting still with my hands in plain view on the stearing wheel. He asks for my license and registration. I pull my license out of my pocket and hand it to him and ask the passenger to retrieve my registration from the glove compartment. As the passenge is rummaging through the glove compartment, the deputy notices the empty Galco MOB holster. I hand him my registration....

    Deputy: Do you have a weapon in the car?
    Me: Yes, I do.
    Deputy: Where is it?
    Me: In the center console
    Deputy: Do you have a CHP?
    Me: Yes, I do.
    Deputy: May I see it.
    Me: Yes (producing the permit)

    He goes on to explain that I should've notified him of the weapon when he came up because if a gun had popped out of the glove compartment when the passenger opened it, he would have had to respond by pulling his firearm and inquired how I would feel about that.

    "Well, I don't store my gun in my glove box while I am driving"

    He goes on to say "but if it had been...blah blah blah".

    "I am not required by VA law to inform an officer if I have a weapon in the vehicle"

    He then continues to spit out hit "hypethetical scenarios" that are outrageous claims.

    I said "Sir, I understand your point of view, but I am not required by VA law to inform"

    He leaves and returns later giving me back my license, registration, and CHP and not much else said about the firearm.

    As I was driving away, I couldn't help but think that had I been irresponsible enough to store my pistol in the glove box and irresponsibly ask my passenger to rummage through it for my registration allowing the gun to fall out, then I deserve what I had coming for being irresponsible and not letting him know there would have been a gun in there. Since I store my gun and registration in different locations, this should never become an issue, as it is a design decision to handle it this way. Though, perhaps having an empty holster in the same place as the registration may not necessarily be a good idea either (this has also been remedied).

    The deputy also didn't want to listen to my explanation that I was more responsible than to be stupid like that. He continued to spit fire with his outrageous hypothetical scenarios.

    Just thought I'd pass on the experience. Not necessarily a good experience, but from from the worst experience...the firearm was not confiscated and disassembled... :X

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Clayton, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    228

    Post imported post

    Is this normal behavior for Virginia cops ?

  3. #3
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Christiansburg, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,228

    Post imported post

    Just sounds like a deputy that needs to be educated on gun and carry laws. I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about it. Just educate him and leave it at that. If he makes a fuss, educate him through a good lawsuit with punitive rewards......



  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Richmond, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    534

    Post imported post

    If the VA Legislature had wanted disclosure to a cop, reference weapons, it would be a REQUIREMENT!

    Seems like, as in KY, it is not!

    No business of any cops, anyway,and be damned to this "officer safety" crap!

    How about citizen safety for a change, which is why we pack guns initially! Why should officer safety trump citizen safety in the first place?

    How safe does a cop feel that he needs to be?

    Please excuse the rant, but, if a cop cannot handle the vagaries and variables that his job throws at him, then perforce he should GET A SAFER JOB!



  5. #5
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Christiansburg, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,228

    Post imported post

    TrueBrit wrote:
    If the VA Legislature had wanted disclosure to a cop, reference weapons, it would be a REQUIREMENT!

    Seems like, as in KY, it is not!

    No business of any cops, anyway,and be damned to this "officer safety" crap!

    How about citizen safety for a change, which is why we pack guns initially! Why should officer safety trump citizen safety in the first place?

    How safe does a cop feel that he needs to be?

    Please excuse the rant, but, if a cop cannot handle the vagaries and variables that his job throws at him, then perforce he should GET A SAFER JOB!
    Holy Cow True Brit ! I'm sure you're a true Brit but I take it you're not going home anytime soon with that attitude :^)!

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,043

    Post imported post

    jack wrote:
    Is this normal behavior for Virginia cops ?
    Through all my experiences with LEO (Prince William, Manassas City, Fauquier) since I have been carrying, this is the first negative LEO experience I have had. I can't really say it was necessarily a negative experience either. I let him know that I knew the law and what my rights were and it did not escalate from there. I was somewhat taken aback by his position as Fauquier is a rural county and I have carried openly and concealed in Fauquier countless numbers of times. In fact, Fauquier is where I have done all of my hunting over the last 5 years.

    OTOH, others have had negative experiences with LEO from multiple jurisdictions, including, but not limited to, Prince William and Manassas City.

    I have even filed police reports in the Manassas City PD headquarters with a firearm openly carried with no issues.

    I am certainly not bent out of shape over the experience. It could've been a lot worse. I will file no formal complaint against the officer, though I have considered sending coorespondence to the Sherrif about the experience and noting that perhaps the deputy's need further clarification on VA law.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Richmond, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    534

    Post imported post

    Neplusultra wrote:
    TrueBrit wrote:
    If the VA Legislature had wanted disclosure to a cop, reference weapons, it would be a REQUIREMENT!

    Seems like, as in KY, it is not!

    No business of any cops, anyway,and be damned to this "officer safety" crap!

    How about citizen safety for a change, which is why we pack guns initially! Why should officer safety trump citizen safety in the first place?

    How safe does a cop feel that he needs to be?

    Please excuse the rant, but, if a cop cannot handle the vagaries and variables that his job throws at him, then perforce he should GET A SAFER JOB!
    Holy Cow True Brit ! I'm sure you're a true Brit but I take it you're not going home anytime soon with that attitude :^

    I hope to return Home towards the end of next year for a visit, attitude and all, Sir!I am the most peaceful of men, but the cops can EARN my respect! Any crap from the Brit cops, and I adopt a thick Scottish accent, and accuse them of being RACIST towards me! Terrifies them! I seek no confrontations with any man, but do not tolerate over-zealous limbs of the law acting outwith the bounds of their clearly defined authority, either side of the Pond!The cops are under no duty to PROTECT the individual, therefore they can bloody well SERVE us!Thus far, I have found the KY cops to be alert yet professional and civil-spoken, and I of course, respond in kind . The cop sets the tone for the encounter, IMO.

    It's all about being a cranky old fart, really!

    Best wishes,

    TrueBrit.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Christiansburg, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,228

    Post imported post

    TrueBrit wrote:
    Any crap from the Brit cops, and I adopt a thick Scottish accent, and accuse them of being RACIST towards me! Terrifies them!
    Gee, I'll have to remember that. Scottish accent, racist bastards, *you* owe me, yah, that'll do it just fine..... :^). Why does the Scottish accent put the fear of God in them anyway? Are they the African Americans of the UK :^)?

    Last name here is Flanagan, BTW :^).

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    9,193

    Post imported post

    Kudos all around. I must get that in before COP666 shows up with his cant.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed hwere they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Hampton, Va, ,
    Posts
    623

    Post imported post

    jack wrote:

    "Is this normal behavior for Virginia cops ?"

    Depends on where you are. I have had a permit for over 12 years now. I have not gotten a ticket in over 17 years. In the last 2 years I have been stopped 4 times. Three times in Hampton. Once for driving with my headlights off. Everything else was on and the officer saw the switch was in the proper position. Turned them off and back on and the head lights came on. Another time I had a tail light out. Another time I was heading east at night and the officer was heading west. He stopped me because he said I had rear liscense plate light out. However it was mysteriously working after he ran my plates. I do not know how he could see my rear plate lights when looking at my vehicle head on as he approached me. An auxiliary Portsmouth police officer I work with told me the officer probably had not reported in for a while and needed an excuse to stop me and make a call in. Any way each time I was let go on my way with no ticket after the plates and liscense were run. I never once thought about the .45 in my IWB holster until after I was given my liscense back since I was more worried about why I was stopped and if I was going to get a ticket. Two of those times I was carrying. The other time I was going home from work at the Shipyard in Newport News. No can carry including company owned parking lots. Not once did any of the officers ask if I was carrying and I never told them if I was.

    After work one night I went to a Walmart in Portsmouth. On the way a light changed to red at a 3 way intersection in Portsmouth. I could have made the yellow, but I stopped and wound up one car length past the stop bar. The reason I stopped long was because when doing the hard stop my large drink in the cup holder started to tip and I grabbed it while I was breaking. The intersection was very large and I was still a full car length and a half from being in the way of intersecting traffic. The light changed and I proceeded. A cop that had stopped that was going the opposite direction made a U-turn and pulled me. He asked why I had almost ran the light and I told him what had happened. He told me he had seen accidents happen under the same circumstances. Yeah, right. It was 2 AM and he and I were the only ones on Portsmouth Blvd. Any way, his female back up arrived. I keep my duplicate registration in the picture holders in my wallet. My permit is also located in one of the picture slots. While looking for my registration duplicate, the female back up had walked up and shined her light in to watch me while the officer ran my liscense. She got very upset with me when she saw my carry permit. She told me that I should have told them I had a gun and a permit. I informed her I was not carrying at that time and that I worked at the shipyard in NN, had just left work and they did not allow firearms in the parking lot. I told her I never thought about it since I was more worried about why I was stopped and if I was going to get a ticket for something. She said "Well, you still should have told us". I told her firmly "Look. I don't have any firearms on me!". She shut her yap and after the officer ran my plates and registration they let me go.
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    NOVA, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    732

    Post imported post

    vrwmiller wrote:
    The deputy also didn't want to listen to my explanation that I was more responsible than to be stupid like that. He continued to spit fire with his outrageous hypothetical scenarios.
    Can you give us some examples of the hypo scenarios?TV and the Movies have been thin on plot lines forthe last few yearsand I need to flex my imagination a bit...

  12. #12
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849

    Post imported post

    I have had a CCW since 1995 when the law was passed (I was the second person in Arlington County to received a permit after the "shall issue" law took effect). The few times I have been stopped, or have passed through those license/registration checks, have all been positive with no surprises or verbal altercations of any kind. So I cannot report anything negative about Virginia's LEO's; state or local. Two slightly comical events did take place, however.

    Early on with shall issue in place, I was Dawson's Small Arms in Annadale looking for a holster for my P11 Kel-Tec on a busy Saturday. At the sale counter where the holsters were displayed were two gentlemen in shorts who were also talking to the salesman.When it was my turn, I asked to see a particular holster and also if I could try my weapon in it.. he said, yes. So I unloaded my pistol and opened the slide to show him its state. Suddenly one of the men in shorts next to me produced his Fairfax LEO badge and asked if I "had a permit for that". I responded that I did and asked he needed to see it to which he said "no". After I completed my business and was preparing to leave, the LEO said, "hadn't you better load that", to which I repeated, "I'll do it in my car.. gunshops don't generally like people to load guns in their store".

    About two years ago, a state police LEO stopped me when I was turning onto the access road for I-66 east just off of route 15. He said he thought I was going a little too fast for the access lane (which I wasn't). One thing I did notice is that he was quite young and got out of the passenger side (in training maybe??). Anyway, he came up to my passenger window and asked for my license. Since I was carrying a handgun, I also was digging in my wallet for my permit. We were both sort of laughing (I have not received a moving violation since April 1971). When I fished my license out of my wallet and what I thought was my CCW, the permit turned out to be a list of medications I take. We both had a good laugh at that one and he waved me on.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    4 hours south of HankT, ,
    Posts
    5,121

    Post imported post

    I have yet to have a problem with any cops in Northern VA, or anywhere else in VA to date.

    But I've never been stopped in Norfolk, either.

    Sounds like you handled it smooth, vrmiller.

    TrueBrit, next time you pull that Scottish accent trick you've got to get it on video! I'm picturing Mike Meyers doing a Jedi mind trick.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Virginia USA, ,
    Posts
    1,688

    Post imported post

    mobeewan wrote:
    jack wrote:

    "Is this normal behavior for Virginia cops ?"

    Depends on where you are. I have had a permit for over 12 years now. I have not gotten a ticket in over 17 years. In the last 2 years I have been stopped 4 times.Â* Three times in Hampton. Once for driving with my headlights off. Everything else was on and the officer saw the switch was in the proper position. Turned them off and back on and the head lights came on. Another time I had a tail light out. Another time I was heading east at night and the officer was heading west. He stopped me because he said I had rear liscense plate light out. However it was mysteriously working after he ran my plates. I do not know how he could see my rear plate lights when looking at my vehicle head on as he approached me. An auxiliary Portsmouth police officer I work with told me the officer probably had not reported in for a while and needed an excuse to stop me and make a call in. Any way each time I was let go on my way with no ticket after the plates and liscense were run. I never once thought about the .45 in my IWB holster until after I was given my liscense back since I was more worried about why I was stopped and if I was going to get a ticket. Two of those times I was carrying. The other time I was going home from work at the Shipyard in Newport News. No can carry including company owned parking lots. Not once did any of the officers ask if I was carrying and I never told them if I was.

    After work one night I went to a Walmart in Portsmouth. On the way a light changed to red at a 3 way intersection in Portsmouth. I could have made the yellow, but I stopped and wound up one car length past the stop bar. The reason I stopped long was because when doing the hard stop my large drink in the cup holder started to tip and I grabbed it while I was breaking. The intersection was very large and I was still a full car length and a half from being in the way of intersecting traffic. The light changed and I proceeded. A cop that had stopped that was going the opposite direction made a U-turn and pulled me. He asked why I had almost ran the light and I told him what had happened. He told me he had seen accidents happen under the same circumstances. Yeah, right. It was 2 AM and he and I were the only ones on Portsmouth Blvd. Any way, his female back up arrived. I keep my duplicate registration in the picture holders in my wallet. My permit is also located in one of the picture slots. While looking for my registration duplicate, the female back up had walked up and shined her light in to watch me while the officer ran my liscense. She got very upset with me when she saw my carry permit. She told me that I should have told them I had a gun and a permit. I informed her I was not carrying at that time and that I worked at the shipyard in NN, had just left work and they did not allow firearms in the parking lot. I told her I never thought about it since I was more worried about why I was stopped and if I was going to get a ticket for something. She said "Well, you still should have told us". I told her firmly "Look. I don't have any firearms on me!". She shut her yap and after the officer ran my plates and registration they let me go.
    i love it. You drive through the light you get a ticket. You tryand stop you get a ticket!

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Richmond, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    534

    Post imported post

    Tomahawk wrote:
    I have yet to have a problem with any cops in Northern VA, or anywhere else in VA to date.

    But I've never been stopped in Norfolk, either.

    Sounds like you handled it smooth, vrmiller.

    TrueBrit, next time you pull that Scottish accent trick you've got to get it on video! I'm picturing Mike Meyers doing a Jedi mind trick.
    Sure, no worries, mate! ******** always baffles brains, donchaknow?

    TrueBrit.

  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    vrwmiller wrote:
    SNIP I am certainly not bent out of shape over the experience. It could've been a lot worse. I will file no formal complaint against the officer, though I have considered sending coorespondence to the Sherrif about the experience and noting that perhaps the deputy's need further clarification on VA law.
    Someanalysis, if I may:

    The deputy basicallyall but demanded you set aside your Fourth Amendment immunities.They can't search for a weaponin your situation, so he tried to getyou to change your mind and reveal its presence or absence from now on.

    There is no way Faquier County missed the ruckus over the Tony'sIncident. Every police officer for miles and miles around had a chance to sort out for himself whether he considers it legitimate for citizens to carry including the nuances. Its almost guaranteed this Deputy has his own personal problems with lawfully armed citizens. Certainly he feels we're supposed to expose ourselves to bad policing by setting aside Constitutional protections.

    If you don't address it with the sheriff, every citizen with a CHP stopped in Faquier County is still open to the same thing.

    I don't believe for one second that in rural Faquier County he has never encountered lawfully armed citizens or never seen a gun legally in a glove box. It would be like driving around Rockingham County and claiming to never see a dead 'possum in the road oran old step-side pick-up truck rusting in a side yard.

    Rhetorically, I'd like police to show me more than one or two isolated instances, if there are even that many, where a CCW permittee ambushed a police officer during a traffic stop.

    We've yielded enough Rights by little encroachments, and big.

    Please do make a formal complaint forcing the Sheriff to treat the issue seriously. If he is a goodDeputy, he'll have a thin personnel file and won't accumulate more than the occasional baseless complaint. His boss will recognize the baseless complaints come promotion time. If he isn't a good Deputy this will help the Sheriff document his transgressions and either help him be a better cop or ease him out the door.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,607

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    Someanalysis, if I may:

    The deputy basicallyall but demanded you set aside your Fourth Amendment immunities.They can't search for a weaponin your situation, so he tried to getyou to change your mind and reveal its presence or absence from now on.

    There is no way Faquier County missed the ruckus over the Tony'sIncident. Every police officer for miles and miles around had a chance to sort out for himself whether he considers it legitimate for citizens to carry including the nuances. Its almost guaranteed this Deputy has his own personal problems with lawfully armed citizens. Certainly he feels we're supposed to expose ourselves to bad policing by setting aside Constitutional protections.

    If you don't address it with the sheriff, every citizen with a CHP stopped in Faquier County is still open to the same thing.

    I don't believe for one second that in rural Faquier County he has never encountered lawfully armed citizens or never seen a gun legally in a glove box. It would be like driving around Rockingham County and claiming to never see a dead 'possum in the road oran old step-side pick-up truck rusting in a side yard.

    Rhetorically, I'd like police to show me more than one or two isolated instances, if there are even that many, where a CCW permittee ambushed a police officer during a traffic stop.

    We've yielded enough Rights by little encroachments, and big.

    Please do make a formal complaint forcing the Sheriff to treat the issue seriously. If he is a goodDeputy, he'll have a thin personnel file and won't accumulate more than the occasional baseless complaint. His boss will recognize the baseless complaints come promotion time. If he isn't a good Deputy this will help the Sheriff document his transgressions and either help him be a better cop or ease him out the door.
    Excuse me? Did you just say that the deputy could NOT search the vehicle for the weapon? :shock:

    You better check your facts....

    Police may frisk a vehicle’s passenger compartment including unlocked containers if reasonable suspicion exists an occupant is armed and dangerous, Michigan v. Long (1983).

    Once the deputyobserved the holster in the vehiclehe can rightfully suspect there is a weapon in thecarto go in it. He can then order everyone out and do a protective sweep.

    The OP was correct that you are not required to report you are armed. If you have a CC permit it will be known as soon as your license is ran.Telling the deputy should be done as a matter of courtesy. I always suspect EVERYONE is armed so that I never have to be told.

    As far as being lectured by the deputy...I am confident that it was done because hefelt it is was important to know you were armed. There is nothing wrong with having such a discussion. This alone is no reason to file a complaint.

    Citizen would have you complain if you were stopped as a courtesy and told you had a break light out and no ticket issued.

    If the deputy was rude or unprofessional during the stop then you should file a complaint. Just because he wanted to tell you the importance of making a notification means nothing.

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    LEO 229 wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    SNIP The deputy basicallyall but demanded you set aside your Fourth Amendment immunities.They can't search for a weaponin your situation, so he tried to getyou to change your mind and reveal its presence or absence from now on.

    Rhetorically, I'd like police to show me more than one or two isolated instances, if there are even that many, where a CCW permittee ambushed a police officer during a traffic stop.

    Please do make a formal complaint forcing the Sheriff to treat the issue seriously. If he is a goodDeputy, he'll have a thin personnel file and won't accumulate more than the occasional baseless complaint. His boss will recognize the baseless complaints come promotion time. If he isn't a good Deputy this will help the Sheriff document his transgressions and either help him be a better cop or ease him out the door.
    SNIP 1) Excuse me? Did you just say that the deputy could NOT search the vehicle for the weapon? :shock:

    You better check your facts....

    Police may frisk a vehicle’s passenger compartment including unlocked containers if reasonable suspicion exists an occupant is armed and dangerous, Michigan v. Long (1983).

    Once the deputyobserved the holster in the vehiclehe can rightfully suspect there is a weapon in thecarto go in it. He can then order everyone out and do a protective sweep.

    2) As far as being lectured by the deputy...I am confident that it was done because hefelt it is was important to know you were armed. There is nothing wrong with having such a discussion. This alone is no reason to file a complaint.

    3) Citizen would have you complain if you were stopped as a courtesy and told you had a break light out and no ticket issued.

    4) If the deputy was rude or unprofessional during the stop then you should file a complaint. Just because he wanted to tell you the importance of making a notification means nothing.
    LEO229,

    It would help civil discourse if you would please spend some time thinking about what is beingwritten and respond to the key elements of the points being presented. And leave out the personal attacks--I did thissome timeago for you, have maintained it, andam not wrong for expecting the same in return.

    1) The element you have missed is "timing."TheDeputywants notification before he hasauthority to search. Of course, police have authority to search--but not at the point the Deputy wants it.

    2) I'm not sure I understand whythe changingcharacterization of the Deputy's communication. At first its characterized as a lecture. In the third sentence--where it is validated--its minimized to a discussion.

    3) Personal attack. Either my advice is sound or its not. If its not, please provide betteradvice and show me where myrationale errs.

    4) The reported attempts by the Deputy to invent hypotheticals reveals his thinking. The big red flag revealing the Deputy's attitudeand an attempt to drive home his point is "and inquired how I would feel about that." Also, the report contains, "The Deputy didn't want to hear..." And, the report contains not one acknowledgement from the Deputy showing respect for the citizen's opinion. This wasn't a plain, gentle, considerateconversation based on respect by the Deputy. I agree that wanting to tell even an ill-considered opinion about notification in a calm, courteous manner does not warrant a complaint. However, that is not what happened here.



    Can you please show me more than a very few isolated instances of a CHP holder ambushing a police officer during a traffic stop?

    I consider that the good guys aren't going to shoot, and the bad guys aren't goingto notify before they shoot. Would you please explain how notification benefits an LEO, beyond a peace of mind? And how any given good LEOs peace of mind, or any other benefit youput forth,is more important than4th Amendment protections against bad LEOs?

    Would you please address some important elements of my post:

    • the Deputy working to get the citizen to set aside 4th Amendment immunities from now on.
    • the last three sentences of my post.I consider that by reporting unacceptable conduct, one is helping the Sheriff run a good ship.










    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,607

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    LEO229,

    It would help civil discourse if you would please spend some time thinking about what is beingwritten and respond to the key elements of the points being presented. And leave out the personal attacks--I did thissome timeago for you, have maintained it, andam not wrong for expecting the same in return.

    1) The element you have missed is "timing."TheDeputywants notification before he hasauthority to search. Of course, police have authority to search--but not at the point the Deputy wants it.

    2) I'm not sure I understand whythe changingcharacterization of the Deputy's communication. At first its characterized as a lecture. In the third sentence--where it is validated--its minimized to a discussion.

    3) Personal attack. Either my advice is sound or its not. If its not, please provide betteradvice and show me where myrationale errs.

    4) The reported attempts by the Deputy to invent hypotheticals reveals his thinking. The big red flag revealing the Deputy's attitudeand an attempt to drive home his point is "and inquired how I would feel about that." Also, the report contains, "The Deputy didn't want to hear..." And, the report contains not one acknowledgement from the Deputy showing respect for the citizen's opinion. This wasn't a plain, gentle, considerateconversation based on respect by the Deputy. I agree that wanting to tell even an ill-considered opinion about notification in a calm, courteous manner does not warrant a complaint. However, that is not what happened here.



    Can you please show me more than a very few isolated instances of a CHP holder ambushing a police officer during a traffic stop?

    I consider that the good guys aren't going to shoot, and the bad guys aren't goingto notify before they shoot. Would you please explain how notification benefits an LEO, beyond a peace of mind? And how any given good LEOs peace of mind, or any other benefit youput forth,is more important than4th Amendment protections against bad LEOs?

    Would you please address some important elements of my post:

    • the Deputy working to get the citizen to set aside 4th Amendment immunities from now on.
    • the last three sentences of my post.I consider that by reporting unacceptable conduct, one is helping the Sheriff run a good ship.
    You stepped on your doodle and now your trying to walk it off.

    "The deputy basicallyall but demanded you set aside your Fourth Amendment immunities.They can't search for a weaponin your situation, so he tried to getyou to change your mind and reveal its presence or absence from now on."

    • You clearly said the deputy was basically making a demand and overlooking the OPs 4th Amendment rights against search and seizure.
    • You also clearly identified that the deputy could not search for a weapon.
    • You thenimplied that since he could not search for the weapon he was attempting to get the OP to reveal that a weapon was in the vehicle.
    Now you play on the term "timing" and that is total BS. The deputy saw the holster and that is why he asked the following:


    Deputy: Do you have a weapon in the car?
    It really does not matter if the OP says yes or no to the question. The Deputy observed the evideince in plain view and had every right to ask if the person is armed.

    The OP can tell him what is in the car and the Deputy can secure the weapon until the completion of the stop. In either case.... the Deputy now has cause to search the vehicle as in Michigan v. Long (1983).

    Furthermore.. there is no violation of the 4th amendment because he is not physically searching anything. The Deputy is asking a question that the OP is not required to even answer. There is no physical search being done here.

    The initial lecture turns into a discussion. Please see that there was dialog between the OP and the Deputy at the end. You have nothing left so you have to attack the words I used. Geez! I see that so often here from guys that have no other valid points to make. Like picking on grammar too.


    He goes on to explain that I should've notified him of the weapon when he came up because if a gun had popped out of the glove compartment when the passenger opened it, he would have had to respond by pulling his firearm and inquired how I would feel about that.

    "Well, I don't store my gun in my glove box while I am driving"

    He goes on to say "but if it had been...blah blah blah".

    "I am not required by VA law to inform an officer if I have a weapon in the vehicle"

    He then continues to spit out hit "hypethetical scenarios" that are outrageous claims.

    I said "Sir, I understand your point of view, but I am not required by VA law to inform"
    No personal attacks here... I was making a strong point that you posted something completely wrong.

    What attitude did the deputy have? The OP stated the Deputy went on to "explain"... and "spit out"things to think about. Maybe the OP can expound on this but I did not see anything about the Deputy having an "attitude".

    The Deputywanted to impress upon the OP howimportantit was to inform law enforcement that he was armed. Maybe his examples were a little far fetched.. but he is driving a point home for the OP's benefit.

    I did not read anything to say he was irate, out of control, demeaning, disrespectful, and belligerent. They talked about it and when the Deputy returned nothing more was said in regards to the OP being armed. I do not recall the OP even being disarmed!



    Your questions answered below:

    There is no data available to show if someone with a CC permit shot a cop. This is not collected. Do I think CC permit holders are a threat? Anyone with a clean record can get a permit. It does mean the level of trust should be increased. I have arrested people that had permits and reported this to the courts.

    Knowing a gun in the car means nothing. It is a false sense of security. I do not ask and just assume the driver and passengers are armed. The Deputy has his own reasons for wanting to know.

    Asking a question is not a violation of the 4th amendment. The courts have also ruled the the officers have the right to work in a safe environment. If they need to know you arearmed they can ask and they can also search. Hate the courts for that.. not me.

    Again. There is nothing to "set aside" Asking aquestion that does not need to be answered is not a violation. Remember the "right to remain silent" line??

    What you believe is "Unacceptable" does not mean it is a violation. Unprofessional conductor violations of your civil rights would be things to report. Your reporting frivolous stuff like.. "I did not like how he looked at me." or "He did not need to lecture me about me running the red light" or "He treated me like a criminal when he approached the car" or "Why does he have to run lidar there every day"are all BS complaints.

    BS complaints do nothing but tie up supervisor timeand generate worthless paperwork. You are in fact wasting the taxpayers money when youfile these types of complaints.

    Furthermore... the Sheriff will not even see the complaints. If there is no violation of departmental orders, state laws, or your civil rights.. the complaint goes nowhere.

    Sure... you will wrongfully fatten up the officers personal file. You have boasted about this elsewhere. I have plenty of BS complaints in mine.I am proud to say that out of the5 complaints that I have.. NONE were substantiated.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    LEO 229 wrote:
    SNIPS You stepped on your doodle and now your trying to walk it off.
    LEO229,

    Thank you for taking the time to respond.

    This is getting out of hand. Please review the post to which you first objected and see if you can't find where I might have been talking about something maybe a little different. Read it in a new piece of timeand as though for the first time.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    LEO 229 wrote:
    SNIPWhat you believe is "Unacceptable" does not mean it is a violation.
    LEO229,


    We do seem to have a persistent disagreement over making complaints.

    How about this proposal for a fair solution:From now on, whenever I advocate making a complaint, I'll PM you so you can go to that thread and make your case for not making a complaint (or making one, whichever you deem appropriate). And likewise, whenever you advocate against making a complaint, you PM me so I can go to that thread and and present my ideas.

    I'm sure the forum will be able to form their own opinion even if neither of us says anything. If our input does influence the OP or the forum,I think they can choosebased on who articulates their ideas best and makes the most sense.

    What do you say?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    LEO 229 wrote:
    Police may frisk a vehicle’s passenger compartment including unlocked containers if reasonable suspicion exists an occupant is armed and dangerous, Michigan v. Long (1983).
    "armed and dangerous" is a 2 part requirement, 229 - the facts in the poster's post above do not implicate any "dangerousness" at all.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    Hey!LEO229. I have an idea! Lets discuss making complaints as a separate subject on a new thread.

    I'll start here. If you want to talk about it, we can just start a new thread. Anybody else can, too.

    START:

    There is no reason complaints have to be limited to violations of rules, policies, laws, etc. If we accept the premisethat a complaintmust, then it necessarily follows that police, courts, and legislatures set the rules for what is and is not acceptable.

    The First Amendment guarantees our right to petition government for redress of grievances.Complaints fall in this category.

    I am of the opinion that if an LEOgives so much as the tiniest hint that he does not have a deep respectfor the Bill of Rights a complaint should be made.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    , Virginia, USA
    Posts
    302

    Post imported post

    LEO 229 wrote:
    SNIP......If you have a CC permit it will be known as soon as your license is ran.

    Form an LLC.

    Transfer the ownership of your vehicle to the LLC.

    Break the license=CC permit linkage.

    The downside: Annual fee to keep LLC registered with state corp. commission.No "personal property" tax exemtion.

  25. #25
    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Loudoun County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    683

    Post imported post

    LEO 229 wrote:
    You better check your facts....

    Police may frisk a vehicle’s passenger compartment including unlocked containers if reasonable suspicion exists an occupant is armed and dangerous, Michigan v. Long (1983).

    Once the deputyobserved the holster in the vehiclehe can rightfully suspect there is a weapon in thecarto go in it. He can then order everyone out and do a protective sweep.
    Good evening 229, ChinChin here. . .how ya doing?

    Point of clarifacation requested. By the statement you made above, is it your contention as an active police officer that the mere presence of a firearm, or empty holster for same when no crime has been comitted, nor suspected to have been comitted (as was the case as related in the OP's account, minus the traffic infraction of course) is automatic reasonable supicion for a complete search of the vechicle, driver and any passenger(s)?

    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •