Perfect CCW law wish list.

loudone · Dec 30, 2007

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Hello all I'm new to this forum. I live in the Mobile Area. I've been CCL holder for the past 8 years.

I know this is an OC forum, however this seems to be the largest group of Alabama RKBA advocates I've seen, so I'll pose the question here.

From thumbing through the threads here I've come to the conclusion that Alabama's CCL laws are convoluted and often misunderstood even by LEO's.

So if new legislation were drafted what features would you want included and why.

I'll go first.

Even though in practical application most everyone may get a PL I would have Alabama's law changed to a Shall Issue law instead of May issue.

kurtmax_0 · Dec 30, 2007

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I would like to see shall issue as well. One thing though: Right now Alabama has some of the fewest restrictions on where you can carry pistols. I'm sure if we get the politicians interested they will add a bunch more...

LoveMyCountry · Dec 30, 2007

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How about this?

REPEALED as unnecessary because the Second Amendment already addresses this issue.

LoveMyCountry

kurtmax_0 · Dec 30, 2007

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LoveMyCountry wrote:

How about this?

REPEALED as unnecessary because the Second Amendment already addresses this issue.

LoveMyCountry

I agree. But I don't think it's very realistic. Alabama has a very large number of Fudds.

vmathis12019 · Dec 30, 2007

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kurtmax_0 wrote:

I agree. But I don't think it's very realistic. Alabama has a very large number of Fudds.

That's the damn truth.I had one friend of my roommate's come over once and have the audacity to tell me that "You doNOT have the right tohave that!" pointing at my XD on myhip which I OC at home.I laughed at him and said something to the effect of "oh yeah? you gonna take it from me?" People ask to see my firearm collection and I show them, and they always look confused like "how do you hunt with THAT???" (while looking at my JIC Mossberg w/ pistol grip and my M4).

I do own ONE hunting gun, a Mossberg 500 12 ga. with a slugster barrel and a standard barrel, but I don't even keep it at my apartment (because I don't use it often, and it doesn't fit in the safe in my closet w/ my other guns). This gun allows me to deer and bird hunt with the same gun (two activities that I do no particularly enjoy greatly, and haven't done in years). I own guns because:

1. I want to protect myself/my family/my property.

2. I like guns!

Now for the original topic to be addressed:

Alabama shall be a SHALL ISSUE STATE for applicants age 21 and older. It shall be a MAY ISSUE state for applicants under 21 but older than 18, evaluated by the sheriff on a case by case basis. (Even as a 19 year old CHP holder, I think it should be a LITTLE tougher to get the license under 21. In my case, this is how applications are handled in my county. The fact that I have been robbed at knife point twice, and could provide proof that I was properly instructed on using a handgun were factors into the issuing of my permit)..

The Alabama CHP shall be changed to a LTCF, meaning it grants the licensee the ability to OC and CC without fear of arbitrary harassment. (OC would remain legal without the license on public land/your own property/your place of business, but having a CHP should not restrict you to only CC and would give you the permission to carry on "private property" like Wal Mart/restaurantsetc... Ideally, no license should be needed, but I do believe in reasonable regulations: no guns for felons/drunks/drug addicts/domestic violence offenders. You pay a price for your poor judgement, even if you have been rehabilitated).

Because CHPs are public record, no SSN should be required on the license.

13a-11-52 shall be REMOVED from the official Code of Alabama. Even though it has been agreed that the Uniform Firearms Act repealed this code-section, there is still confusion about it (i.e. it is still considered code by police officers). With an Alabama LTCF, it shall be legal for a person to carry a pistol in any place that is open to public access (including Public University campuses).

It shall be illegal (as it already is due to preemption and their public status) for a Public University to ban/regulate the carrying of concealed weapons on campus by students, faculty, and staff. (I could see a reasonable restriction here like registering with the campus PD as a CHP holder, just so they know (for whatever reason they want to). They wouldn't be able to grant or deny permission to carry if a vaild CHP is presented (they could take the date of expiration and demand proof of renewal every year, but that's about the only regulation I could see them allowing).

These are all I could come up with in the last 10 minutes, and represent an ideal situation FOR ME. You may or may not agree with these changes, but in my opinion they are neither restrictive or arbitrary. They would address serious issues that face Alabama CHP holders at the present, and would further the cause of OCDO. It is a fact that for the time being, we WILL NOT be able to gain the ability to carry license free in any manner in AL, but legislation like what is shown above would be a huge leap toward de-regulating the process IMO.

Grapeshot · Dec 30, 2007

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Here is a shopping list for you:

Shall Issue and OC legal
Castle Doctrine
Stand Your Ground w/o civil liability
No Gun Zone Liability
College and School carry
Total State Preemption
Recognize all other state's permits

Select thoses that you most want and realistically stand a chance of winning.
Nothing will hurt your cause more than tilting with windmills and losing big. Muster your forces, do your homework and find or convert legislators who will champion your cause. Fight through your ballots - defeat those that would keep you oppressed.

Maybe, just maybe the Supreme Court will do some good for all of us.

Yata hey

kurtmax_0 · Dec 30, 2007

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Shall Issue and OC legal - OC is already legal
Castle Doctrine - We have this already
Stand Your Ground w/o civil liability - See above
No Gun Zone Liability - Huh?
College and School carry - It's already legal to carry on universities and schools. The only reason 'students' can't carry is that they will get expelled. I doubt any criminal charges would stick....
Total State Preemption - We have this already. In fact, even state employees can't be restricted from carrying firearms...
Recognize all other state's permits - Sort of. We recognize states that recognize us

Grapeshot · Dec 30, 2007

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kurtmax_0 wrote:

Shall Issue and OC legal - OC is already legal
Castle Doctrine - We have this already
Stand Your Ground w/o civil liability - See above
No Gun Zone Liability - Huh?
College and School carry - It's already legal to carry on universities and schools. The only reason 'students' can't carry is that they will get expelled. I doubt any criminal charges would stick....
Total State Preemption - We have this already. In fact, even state employees can't be restricted from carrying firearms...
Recognize all other state's permits - Sort of. We recognize states that recognize us

Click to expand...

Shall Issue and OC legal - OC is already legal - My understanding was that permits under certain circumstances were discretionary and doesn't OC require a permit? Wouldn't it be better if it did not?

Stand Your Ground w/o civil liability didn't realize that you had protection against being sued civilly.

No Gun Zone Liability - Huh? If a Gun Free Zone (No guns sign) exists and you are subsequently harmed, the property owner is liable for damages.
http://www.gunlaws.com/GFZ/GFZ-BillReview.htm

College and School carry - It's already legal to carry on universities and schools. The only reason 'students' can't carry is that they will get expelled. I doubt any criminal charges would stick.... I refer to a condition where schools could not penalize students and employees fro carrying if otherwise legal.

Total State Preemption - We have this already. In fact, even state employees can't be restricted from carrying firearms...Total preemption means that no local govt., sheriff etc. can decide differently that the state laws - no discretionary requirements.

I'm not trying to tell anybody else how to handle their state and I'm certainly not an expert on Alabama law. I was only offering my 2 1/2 cents worth.

Yata hey

kurtmax_0 · Dec 30, 2007

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Ah didn't notice the civil liability part. I'm not entirely sure about that. From a quick check it seems to make someone immune from criminal and civil liability...

OC is legal without a permit. It's just that not many police know about it.

We do have state preemption. It's just that state law makes Alabama a 'de jure' May Issue state. The courts of interpreted the law to be more of a 'shall issue' type though, but it's still pretty vague.

Comp-tech · Dec 30, 2007

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Grapeshot wrote:

kurtmax_0 wrote:

Shall Issue and OC legal - OC is already legal
Castle Doctrine - We have this already
Stand Your Ground w/o civil liability - See above
No Gun Zone Liability - Huh?
College and School carry - It's already legal to carry on universities and schools. The only reason 'students' can't carry is that they will get expelled. I doubt any criminal charges would stick....
Total State Preemption - We have this already. In fact, even state employees can't be restricted from carrying firearms...
Recognize all other state's permits - Sort of. We recognize states that recognize us

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Shall Issue and OC legal - OC is already legal - My understanding was that permits under certain circumstances were discretionary and doesn't OC require a permit? Wouldn't it be better if it did not?
According to an AG opinion, the only discretion a sheriff has is whether the applicant is "a suitable person to be so licensed" and can only revoke "upon proof that the licensee is not a proper person to be licensed".....I think a judge would have to make a ruling based on the background check/record of the applicant...just my opinion though.
The courts have ruled in several cases that OC requires no permit/license....there is also an AG opinion stating same....this is NOT the way LE see it though....you are almost guaranteed arrest for OC whether or not the DA can/will charge you is a different matter.....
IMHO, the LE view on the law is the biggest hurdle we face....ie, if LE understood the law in the same light as the courts, we would actually have WAY fewer issues to deal with.

Stand Your Ground w/o civil liability didn't realize that you had protection against being sued civilly.
We do have a "Castle Doctrine" and "Stand Your Ground" legislation....not certain about the civil issues.

No Gun Zone Liability - Huh? If a Gun Free Zone (No guns sign) exists and you are subsequently harmed, the property owner is liable for damages.
http://www.gunlaws.com/GFZ/GFZ-BillReview.htm
This would be nice but I don't see it happening since you have the choice not to be there......

College and School carry - It's already legal to carry on universities and schools.(with a Pistol License) The only reason 'students' can't carry is that they will get expelled. I doubt any criminal charges would stick.... I refer to a condition where schools could not penalize students and employees fro carrying if otherwise legal.
I'm not sure how they get away with this since state law (11-80-11) seems to specifically prevent it...see below.

Total State Preemption - We have this already. In fact, even state employees can't be restricted from carrying firearms...Total preemption means that no local govt., sheriff etc. can decide differently that the state laws - no discretionary requirements.
We have preemtion....see below. Although his seems to mean nothing to LE departments.....

I'm not trying to tell anybody else how to handle their state and I'm certainly not an expert on Alabama law. I was only offering my 2 1/2 cents worth.

Yata hey

Section 11-80-11Regulation of gun shows, etc.; authority to bring or settle certain lawsuits reserved to Attorney General. ....(a) No county or municipal corporation, instrumentality, or political subdivision thereof, by ordinance, resolution, or other enactment, shall regulate in any manner gun shows, the possession, ownership, transport, carrying, transfer, sale, purchase, licensing, registration or use of firearms, ammunition, components of firearms, firearms dealers, or dealers in firearm components.....

Section 11-45-1.1Subject matter of handguns reserved to State Legislature; power of municipality to adopt certain ordinances; concurrent jurisdiction of municipal courts with district courts. No incorporated municipality shall have the power to enact any ordinance, rule, or regulation which shall tax, restrict, prevent, or in any way affect the possession or ownership of handguns by the citizens of this state. The entire subject matter of handguns is reserved to the State Legislature. This section shall not be construed to limit or restrict the power of a municipality to adopt ordinances which make the violation of a state handgun law a violation of a municipal ordinance to the same extent as other state law violations, or to limit or restrict the power of a municipal court to exercise concurrent jurisdiction with the district court over violations of state handgun laws which may be prosecuted as breaches of a municipal ordinance.

Comp-tech · Dec 30, 2007

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kurtmax_0 wrote:

LoveMyCountry wrote:

How about this?

REPEALED as unnecessary because the Second Amendment already addresses this issue.

LoveMyCountry

Click to expand...

I agree. But I don't think it's very realistic. Alabama has a very large number of Fudds.

Be vewy, vewy quiet.......I wascley wabbit hunt with my AR.....

HungSquirrel · Dec 30, 2007

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I will be satisfied with nothing less than unrestricted carry (open or otherwise) for all law-abiding citizens eighteen or older.

Comp-tech · Dec 30, 2007

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vmathis12019 wrote:

Alabama shall be a SHALL ISSUE STATE for applicants age 21 and older. It shall be a MAY ISSUE state for applicants under 21 but older than 18, evaluated by the sheriff on a case by case basis.
I would like to see this as well....I know a few 18 y/o's that have no business with BB guns, let alone a lethal weapon.....

The Alabama CHP shall be changed to a LTCF, meaning it grants the licensee the ability to OC and CC without fear of arbitrary harassment. (OC would remain legal without the license on public land/your own property/your place of business, but having a CHP should not restrict you to only CC and would give you the permission to carry on "private property" like Wal Mart/restaurantsetc... Ideally, no license should be needed, but I do believe in reasonable regulations: no guns for felons/drunks/drug addicts/domestic violence offenders. You pay a price for your poor judgement, even if you have been rehabilitated).
Actually, we have a "Pistol License", not a "CHP" and the laws in no way mandate concealed carry, only allow it......it also allows carry anywhere within the state that is not prohibited BY LAW...including Walmarts etc.

Because CHPs are public record, no SSN should be required on the license.
SSN is not required to be put on the PL......it is not on mine......you do have to provide it for the background check though.

13a-11-52 shall be REMOVED from the official Code of Alabama. Even though it has been agreed that the Uniform Firearms Act repealed this code-section, there is still confusion about it (i.e. it is still considered code by police officers). With an Alabama LTCF, it shall be legal for a person to carry a pistol in any place that is open to public access (including Public University campuses).
This is already the case...unless property is "posted" by the owner etc. As for sec 52, I agree that it should be either removed or the word "concealed" put back to it's original position in the statute.
I also agree with you on the "campus issue"....this has always seemed stupid to me.

It shall be illegal (as it already is due to preemption and their public status) for a Public University to ban/regulate the carrying of concealed weapons on campus by students, faculty, and staff. (I could see a reasonable restriction here like registering with the campus PD as a CHP holder, just so they know (for whatever reason they want to). They wouldn't be able to grant or deny permission to carry if a vaild CHP is presented (they could take the date of expiration and demand proof of renewal every year, but that's about the only regulation I could see them allowing).
I wouldn't have a problem with this one at all...IF they (college PD) could be restricted to your proposal.

These are all I could come up with in the last 10 minutes, and represent an ideal situation FOR ME. You may or may not agree with these changes, but in my opinion they are neither restrictive or arbitrary. They would address serious issues that face Alabama CHP holders at the present, and would further the cause of OCDO. It is a fact that for the time being, we WILL NOT be able to gain the ability to carry license free in any manner in AL, but legislation like what is shown above would be a huge leap toward de-regulating the process IMO.
All it would take is "LEO education" and a change to no PL required in vehicles....still yet, not an easy task

vmathis12019 · Dec 30, 2007

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Comp-tech wrote:

vmathis12019 wrote:

The Alabama CHP shall be changed to a LTCF, meaning it grants the licensee the ability to OC and CC without fear of arbitrary harassment. (OC would remain legal without the license on public land/your own property/your place of business, but having a CHP should not restrict you to only CC and would give you the permission to carry on "private property" like Wal Mart/restaurantsetc... Ideally, no license should be needed, but I do believe in reasonable regulations: no guns for felons/drunks/drug addicts/domestic violence offenders. You pay a price for your poor judgement, even if you have been rehabilitated).
Actually, we have a "Pistol License", not a "CHP" and the laws in no way mandate concealed carry, only allow it......it also allows carry anywhere within the state that is not prohibited BY LAW...including Walmarts etc.

Click to expand...

The problem is, that there is no "Uniform" Pistol license in the state of Alabama. The back of my pistol license reads as follows :

This DOES NOT permit you to carry a gun openly as an officer. This permit is void if holder is under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Federal laws regulate possession of firearms in certain areas of air terminals. If you have any questions please feel free to contact this office at (334) 428-2641.

My signature
Signature of Licensee

I also requested that my SSN be taken off my permit upon it's second issuance (you know the story of what happened), and the Sheriff's secretary told me it was required by Sheriff Meeks since there was no photo of the holder (as you know, in AL, you have the OPTION of putting your SSN on your DL, mine's not on their, so there is NO logic behind requiring it on the pistol license, but that's what they said, and I just wanted to get my license and get home--> I did 2 interviews with the paper and CBS, met with the cheif of police, had to wait for the custodian of evidence to finish a meeting to get my pistol back, AND had to have a meeting w/ the sheriff to get my permit reinstated, all the while missing 3 classes in the middle of midterms.)

When I was charged upon my arrest, I was charged under 13a-11-52 because it's still in the books!Even though it has been repealed, the cops don't know that.

I agree 100% that LE education is key. I think there are some more issues as well though, like the differences between pistol licenses from county to county. Some counties issue a proper plastic license w/ photo. Mine is a piece of paper I watched the lady print out and then laminate. There are some who've even posted that their county issued them alicense that was an 8.5x11 size page that they just kept folded up in their wallet.

Comp-tech · Dec 30, 2007

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vmathis12019 wrote:

The problem is, that there is no "Uniform" Pistol license in the state of Alabama. The back of my pistol license reads as follows :

This DOES NOT permit you to carry a gun openly as an officer. This permit is void if holder is under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Federal laws regulate possession of firearms in certain areas of air terminals. If you have any questions please feel free to contact this office at (334) 428-2641.

My signature
Signature of Licensee

I also requested that my SSN be taken off my permit upon it's second issuance (you know the story of what happened), and the Sheriff's secretary told me it was required by Sheriff Meeks since there was no photo of the holder (as you know, in AL, you have the OPTION of putting your SSN on your DL, mine's not on their, so there is NO logic behind requiring it on the pistol license, but that's what they said, and I just wanted to get my license and get home--> I did 2 interviews with the paper and CBS, met with the cheif of police, had to wait for the custodian of evidence to finish a meeting to get my pistol back, AND had to have a meeting w/ the sheriff to get my permit reinstated, all the while missing 3 classes in the middle of midterms.)
You may want to ask your attorney but, I think you could force the removal of your SSN on privacy grounds.
Did I understand correctly that you had to sign something agreeing not to sue to make all this "go away"?
.....if I'm not asking too much.
What was the attitude of the LEOs regarding you OCing in the future after all this?...are you likely to be arrested again if you OC etc?

When I was charged upon my arrest, I was charged under 13a-11-52 because it's still in the books!Even though it has been repealed, the cops don't know that.
IIRC, sec. 52 was not repealed (repealed stautes will say "repealed under act xxx etc.) but charges have to be consistant with sec. 73....in other words, since sec. 52 begins with "Except as otherwise provided".....sec 73 "provides otherwise" so, if you have a PL under sec 73, sec 52 does not apply to you....sec 52 only applies to non PL holders.

I agree 100% that LE education is key. I think there are some more issues as well though, like the differences between pistol licenses from county to county. Some counties issue a proper plastic license w/ photo. Mine is a piece of paper I watched the lady print out and then laminate. There are some who've even posted that their county issued them alicense that was an 8.5x11 size page that they just kept folded up in their wallet.
This is another issue that needs attention...I think it may have something to do with funding of the individual departments....8.5x11 being cheapest....ones like we have being next (mine is on a preprinted form where my info is all that was added at issue)...plastic most costly etc....you are correct, there should be a standard.

My PL has similar "restrictions" on the back as well....which, IMHO, are illegal due to preemtion. I could be wrong but, I don't think the PL can void it's self because your drinking etc. either....I believe you would have to be "officially" notified of its revocation in order to be charged under sec. 73....unless of course one were commiting a crime using a gun etc.
However, yours states "as an officer".....doing anything "as an officer" would be a crime no?
Mine just states "this permit does not allow you to carry a pistol openly"....my first reaction to reading that was "well no shit...this is for concealed carry". All this "made up" crap needs to be removed IMHO
My question is, how do we educate LE without getting arrested?.....

kurtmax_0 · Dec 30, 2007

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""this permit does not allow you to carry a pistol openly"

Well... it's 100% correct. You don't even need a permit to carry openly, so the permit has nothing to do with OC. Notice the sneaky wording

Grapeshot · Dec 31, 2007

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Sounds to me that your state legislators could do a lot to clean up these "inconsistencies" and enforce true preemption. In Virginia, VCDL has backed/supported an individual in a challenge through the courts where the refusal to comply was of sufficient magnitude. Do you not have similar assets available?

Yata hey

vmathis12019 · Dec 31, 2007

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Comp-tech wrote:

Did I understand correctly that you had to sign something agreeing not to sue to make all this "go away"?
.....if I'm not asking too much.
What was the attitude of the LEOs regarding you OCing in the future after all this?...are you likely to be arrested again if you OC etc?

Not a problem at all pal. I did have to sign a waiver of liability releasing the city of Andalusia and the PD from liability of any "damages" that were incurred because of my unlawful arrest as a part of the agreement in which the City Prosecutor would drop the charges.

When I look back on it, I DID NOT have to sign the form, as the motion to dismiss had already been granted, but it would have given them the opportunity to bring the charges again, and the CP was a douchebag and would have done so if I hadn't signed it. Because Mr. Hooper (my attorney) took my case ona pro-bono basis, I was really subject to his own zeal, which was running low by the time the case was resolved, hence the lack of an ensuing law suit (as you all know, I'm a poor starving college student who can't afford gas...let alone legal fees in a law suit).

The Sheriff told me in no uncertain terms that if I were "Doing that again" we would go through this ordeal ALL OVER AGAIN! Only next time, he would revoke my license for good (too much discretionary power over PLs?).

Grapeshot · Dec 31, 2007

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vmathis12019 wrote

.................
The Sheriff told me in no uncertain terms that if I were "Doing that again" we would go through this ordeal ALL OVER AGAIN! Only next time, he would revoke my license for good (too much discretionary power over PLs?).

If I understand the facts correctly - OC is legal, the Sheriff, the prosecutor dropped the case, and he (Sheriff) says if you OC again he will revoke your permit permenantly. Wish it were me he was trying to intimidate - I would like a new truck paid for by his department! Of course I'm not there and it's not my hide on the line.

I don't think the court/judge would take too kindly to seeing the same charges for the same offense as was previously dismissed.

Surely somebody (attorney, ACLU or local group) is willing to take this on as a cause celebre. Local LEOs should not/cannot be allowed to override the state.

This is exactly why I have suggested that TOTAL preemption needs to be fought for there!

Yata hey

loudone · Dec 31, 2007

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Grapeshot wrote:

vmathis12019 wrote

.................
The Sheriff told me in no uncertain terms that if I were "Doing that again" we would go through this ordeal ALL OVER AGAIN! Only next time, he would revoke my license for good (too much discretionary power over PLs?).

Click to expand...

If I understand the facts correctly - OC is legal, the Sheriff, the prosecutor dropped the case, and he (Sheriff) says if you OC again he will revoke your permit permenantly. Wish it were me he was trying to intimidate - I would like a new truck paid for by his department! Of course I'm not there and it's not my hide on the line.

I don't think the court/judge would take too kindly to seeing the same charges for the same offense as was previously dismissed.

Surely somebody (attorney, ACLU or local group) is willing to take this on as a cause celebre. Local LEOs should not/cannot be allowed to override the state.

This is exactly why I have suggested that TOTAL preemption needs to be fought for there!

Yata hey

In effect Alabama gives a member of the executive branch (a Sheriff who is the Chief LEO) the ability to make up "rules" which nearlycarry the force and weight of the law( I say nearly since a good attorney can probably get you out of it).

To me this goes against everything I learned about how our Government is supposed to work.

So to me the 2 much changes are:

A. Shall Isuue (even though I do like the May issue to under 21)

B. Removal of the Qualified or Unqualified language. I believe that clause is where all the nifty backs of Pistol permits come from. nhjnjmk

That way the Sheriffs are executing the law and not making it up as they go.

Perfect CCW law wish list.

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