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Thread: Shoplifter Detainment

  1. #1
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    KRS 433.236 - http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/433-00/236.PDF
    provides for merchants to detain someone they suspect of shoplifting. I've been stopped and asked to show receipts etc and have wondered if they have a right to detain me, then do I have a DUTY to allow them to or can I say 'I don't think so' and keep walking.

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    According to the statute they must have probably cause that the person had shoplifted from the store -- this is greater than 'reasonable suspicion', so they must be fairly certain that the person was guilty of commiting the crime.

    Since the transaction between yourself and the merchant has completed, showing proof of ownership of your property is annoying to me.

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    I just walk by and say, "No thank you"....or walk out one of the other doors as people stack up to have their receipt "checked" and say nothing.



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    Most stores and states have a list of requirements that must be met in order to legally detain a shoplifter.

    I used to work security at Target in OK back in college and there was a 5 step process I'm not sure I remember all of them but the gist is:

    They have to observe you select the merch, conceal the merch, make an attempt to leave without paying and they have to maintain observation from the time of concealment until detainment. Non-productive stops are viewed as a serious black mark in an LPs file.

    Some states authorize merchants to make stops based on concealing merchandise and do not have to wait for a shoplifter to exit the store. A lot of stores have dollar limits that someone has to take in order for a stop to be made. Targets limit happened to be $20.

    The biggest place where stores lose money is internal theft and credit card / check fraud.

    Most the time if someone stops you and asks to see a reciept before you leave (Best Buy) you dont have to show it. I've read many stories on consumerist.com about the cops being called to make a customer show a reciept only to have their rears handed to them by the LEO for unlawfully detaining a customer. I tend not to shop at places that have practices like that.

    On the other hand, some places like BJs, Sams Club, Costco, showing your reciept is part of the membership agreement and you have no choice.

    If I'm ever stopped by a store LP for seeing a bulge under my jacket or shirt and assuming incorrectly that I've concealed merchandise he or she is going to be in for an earful.

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    I understand they have a right to stop me if the legal requirements are met but does necessasarily mean that I HAVE to allow it. If they attempt to restrain me physically am I within my rights to use physical force to defend myself?

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    boohickey11 wrote:
    I understand they have a right to stop me if the legal requirements are met but does necessasarily mean that I HAVE to allow it. If they attempt to restrain me physically am I within my rights to use physical force to defend myself?
    Not preaching at you here, boohickey, but maybe heed Mr Pierce's profound advice, posted elsewhere today?

    Comply, take notes, fight it LATER, hard as you can, and if necessary, REALLY put the hurt to them, financially! Far sweeter, no?

    Go the other way, you might get your ass kicked if things go South? Why risk it?

    Just my opinion, worth as much as you paid me for it, but maybe PICK your battles IF you can!

    Best wishes,

    TrueBrit.






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    On the subject of recept checking: I have never thought the "why are they checking MY stuff?" line is a great one. Look around the next time you are near the entrance. How easy would it be to grab an empty bag, throw some stuff in it, and just walk out the door? The guy checking receipts never saw you pay for it, as far as he is concerned, the stuff in your hands IS stolen.
    Imagine this: you go to work one morning and find a guy walking out with some company property. Are you going to attemp to find out if he got it legaly? From his point of view, he was just given this stuff by your boss. From yours, it's a potential theft. A great way to steal stuff is to just walk in like you own the place, pick up some stuff and walk out.
    Loss prevention is there for a reason. Untill you get to your car they have ever reason to assume you just walked out without paying.

    On the subject of detainment: If you are not a LEO, you are not detaining me.

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    I understand the whole 'its easier to cooperate' idea and in most instances I know it's the best course of action. My personal principles dictate that this is the kind of scenario where you nip it in the bud. It's like the being mugged scenario. Are you going to wait for the police to arrive or nip it in the bud.

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    boohickey11 wrote:
    I understand the whole 'its easier to cooperate' idea and in most instances I know it's the best course of action. My personal principles dictate that this is the kind of scenario where you nip it in the bud. It's like the being mugged scenario. Are you going to wait for the police to arrive or nip it in the bud.
    Nip what in the bud? Their attempts to curb theft of their property? As I stated before, until you are out of the store, any employee that sees you with mercendise they didn't see you pay for has every right to assume you are stealing it.

    Unless you were refering to the detainment issue, in which case feel free to tell me to put my foot in any place of your choosing.

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    boohickey11 wrote:
    I understand the whole 'its easier to cooperate' idea and in most instances I know it's the best course of action. My personal principles dictate that this is the kind of scenario where you nip it in the bud. It's like the being mugged scenario. Are you going to wait for the police to arrive or nip it in the bud.
    A valid viewpoint, that I completely respect.

    Muggers are different. I, too, would endeavour to rip their arms off, and beat them around the heads with the soggy ends, on principle, sure!

    Thiscourse of action could bedifficult to justify with loss prevention guys, etc, and, how far can you take it? The principle of resisting this crap is correct, but how practical might it be? Just a minor difference in our essential thinking, I believe?

    TrueBrit.

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    I think businesses have a right to check and make sure they;re not being ripped off. I also think I have a right to be assumed innocent unless someone has seen something to indicate I'm shoplifting. In the end, the store's owners get to decide how things work on their property, of course, but we also have a right to shop somewhere else, or to demand, verbally or in writing that our dignity be respected and that the managment should act with more civility toward the patrons. Beyond that I think we are stretching.

    I live near the Wal Mart in Hybla Valley, Northern VA, which is considered a rather seedy neighborhood. They sometimes check receipts at the door, but they aren't militant about it; you can just walk by when the elderly Asian guy is busy. I don't think he's capable of taking on some of the thugs I see in there. Meanwhile, the sensors at the door are alarming off every few minutes. I don't know what they can do to stop that theft without becoming more rude.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    I think businesses have a right to check and make sure they;re not being ripped off. I also think I have a right to be assumed innocent unless someone has seen something to indicate I'm shoplifting. In the end, the store's owners get to decide how things work on their property, of course, but we also have a right to shop somewhere else, or to demand, verbally or in writing that our dignity be respected and that the managment should act with more civility toward the patrons. Beyond that I think we are stretching.

    I live near the Wal Mart in Hybla Valley, Northern VA, which is considered a rather seedy neighborhood. They sometimes check receipts at the door, but they aren't militant about it; you can just walk by when the elderly Asian guy is busy. I don't think he's capable of taking on some of the thugs I see in there. Meanwhile, the sensors at the door are alarming off every few minutes. I don't know what they can do to stop that theft without becoming more rude.
    A year or two ago Wal-Mart decided to fire off the majority of their store LP's. Some bean counter in AR decided that it was cheaper to take the thefts and lock up a bit more of the merchandise than to pay 2 or 3 LP to prowl the store.

    From what I understand the remaining LPs focus on internal theft, return and check/credit fraud.

    Having worked LP the merchandise that walks out the door is usually nickel and dime stuff taken by teenagers and bored housewives. CDs, Makeup, cheap jewelry, etc... The majority of those shoplifters will remove the merch from the packages thus negating the door buzzers and elderly door greeter. The reciept checking is really just a visual deterrent. I worked the door at Target for over a year and only made what I would call one solid shoplifting recovery from the door buzzer / reciept check technique and the shoplifter was high to boot. 98% the door alarms come from a cashier not deactivating a tag.

    The professionals don't steal the piddly stuff its not worth it. They came in three flavors:

    The first is the big ticket shoplifter, typically a 18 - 30 yo male. We had a guy we nicknamed "The DVD Bandit" that would come in with a box cutter and wire snips. He would snip the cables and steal the cameras, pry back the glass doors in the electronics area enough to bypass the glass lock and swipe the portable DVD players. He would come in the store at 8AM when the stocking crew was on break and the opening crew were having their meetings with management. Come to find out his "full time employment" was going from one Target to another in the OKC area and then going to a pawn shop he was in cahoots with to sell it. These guys mean business and would typically fight it out or bolt if confronted.


    The second was the fraudster / identity thief. Typically a middle-aged woman. These gals are con artists. They will come in with a stolen checks and credit cards. They will buy $300 - $500 worth of expensive merchandise on the stolen check or debit card. The teenage cashier up front then fails to check ID as they are trained. They will then drive across town a week later and return it for cash or store credit. Typically these ladies get discovered weeks after the fact when we would check the tapes to try to match up video with fraudulent transaction reports. Another variant was using stolen identity to open store credit cards and then tap them out.

    The third was the internal. These were the worst since they know the system, have all the keys, etc... They will fail to scan merch. for their friend or swipe boxes electronics and DVDs off the back of the truck to sell on eBay or later commit return fraud with.

    Now, why do I go into all this...

    Typically the person at the front of the store asking to check reciepts isn't part of the LP team. Usually its some low level employee who doesn't have the power to stop you if you say "no thanks" and breeze past. Target and Best Buy are exceptions, their door checkers are the bottom of the LP totem pole. However, if you do decide to breeze past without showing reciept they are probably going to make note of your description, time, etc. Nearly every store has a camera pointed at the doors and they record everyone going in and out. Later someone in back will pull a tape and print out your picture and put you in their alert database. The next time you go the door checker will remember you and alert the plain clothes LP who will then tail you.

    I'm with Tomahawk, I tend not to shop in places that force you to show a reciept because I know its just an inneffective ruse. However, if you are stopped and you feel its arbitary or they aren't stopping everyone, the best thing to do just comply, ask why you are being asked to show reciept, make a note and complain to management or corportate later. Most stores have a "if it isn't bagged, check the reciept" policy (i.e. large boxes, etc...)

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    boohickey11 wrote:
    I understand they have a right to stop me if the legal requirements are met but does necessasarily mean that I HAVE to allow it. If they attempt to restrain me physically am I within my rights to use physical force to defend myself?
    Boohickey11,

    To answer your question, maybe. For sure not in regard to a Terry Stop in Virginia (Commonwealth vs Hill).

    Lets assume that you are not facing a genuine threat of grave bodily injury or death.

    In the big picture there are lots of possibilities. For the sake of discussion, lets narrow it down totwo invented extremes.

    Bottom of the scale: Cops hassle OC'er. Cops unlawfully detain OC'er. OC'erfights back physically. Win or lose, cops lie about what happened. OC'ergoes to jail, loses gun rights.OC'er is viewed as anextremist and is marginalized. 2A takes a blackeye.

    Top of the scale: Cops hassle OC'er, screw up, andcommit something for which they can be successfully and effectively sued.OC'er wins big.Plenty of positive media exposure. 2A wins big.

    There is lots of room in between those two extremes. My advice is tomake a strategy that minimizes your risks and maximizes your advantages. During an encounter, go for the greatest benefit you can achieve both for yourself and 2A. There isso little to gain by physical resistance and so manyhuge risks. There is so much more possiblyto begained by letting the police reveal theirantipathy toRights and thentaking effective action when you are no longer in their clutches.

    If you're new at this, rely on the basics:

    • "Officer, am I free to leave?"
    • "Officer, I do not consent to any searches or seizures."
    • "Officer, since my attorney isn't present, I have nothing to say."
    • Obtain a voice-recorder.

    As you learnyou can expand your strategy. I likenit to negotiating.You have numerousstrengths in your negotiating position. Its just a matter of learning them. The police have strengths in theirs(and you can bet your last dollar they knowtheirs.) Its just a matter of you knowing yours AND theirs.

    I'll close with this thought about relative strengths in negotiating position. Any police officer who steps even a little bit out of linehas just revealed he DOES NOT know that you knowyour negotiating position--otherwise he wouldn't step out of line.



    PS: Did I mention getting a voice-recorder?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    That's all fine and good. As I said it's not the police I wonder about it's the merchants themselves. If a merchant (ie walmart employee) attempts to physically restrain me then do I have the duty to allow them to?

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    boohickey11 wrote:
    SNIP If a merchant (ie walmart employee) attempts to physically restrain me then do I have the duty to allow them to?
    Sorry. Had my head in the wrong thread! (We need an embarrassed smiley.)

    I think, based on the way you phrased your first post, its a two part question.

    First, I notice the law provided only authorizes them to detain based on probable cause for believing that merchandise has been unlawfully taken. This particular law, on its face, does not expressly authorizedetaininga customer based onrefusal to show a receipt, a practice that seems to have come along some 15-20 years after the law was last modified according to the fine print at the bottom. You should talk to an attorney. Also, maybehuntfor another statute or acourt opinion. Perhaps there is a courtruling that refusal to show a receipt is consideredprobable cause.

    Second, as far assituations outside a refusal to show a receipt. You should talk to an attorney.Also mayber hunt up some court opinions to see if there was a ruling that discussed a duty to comply. I suspect it will fall into the realm of resisting arrest, complicated by it being a form of citizen's arrest. Perhaps in Kentuckythere is a legal rule of statutory interpretation where there is an implied corresponding duty on one party to a power granted to another party. It seems to me I've read of such in contract law. I don't know how or whether it would apply here, or whether a form of "transferred police power" includes with it "transferred citizen duty to comply."

    I doubt they're going to risk alienating a customer by physically grabbinghim for refusing to show a receiptunless they're pretty convinced he's stolen something.

    I imagine, given that it seems to be a form of arrest, your constitutionalrights would still be in force. Not knowing whether you have a duty to comply, you could apply the same principles from a police stop and set them up for a lawsuit ornoisycomplaint if they step even slightly beyond the letter of the lawby:

    • Refusing consent to a search or seizure
    • Refusing consent tostop and talk or be detained
    • Refusing to answer questions without an attorney
    • Refusing to provide ID (notice the law permits them to request it)

    I do suspect there is civil and/orcriminal case law on this. There are an awful lot shoplifting attempts. I imagine somebody by now has appealed a conviction on this point or sued.

    Ofcourse, a simpleway to getathread to follow would be to consult a friend or relative in such a store, or perhaps just call corporate and ask them what statutesor opinions they rely on.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I sense some linkage between this question and the fact that some of folks around here talk about citizens' arrest.

    If a citizen has the authority to arrest someone he suspects of committing a crime on the street, does he not have the authority to arrest someone he suspects of committing a crime aginst his own property, or property he has been charged with watching over, especially in his own store?

    Thinking some more, if you are expected to comply with a police officer during an arrest or detainment, are you than expected to comply with an undeputized citizen who suspects you of theft and is arresting you?

    Some of the people on this forum amazingly carry handcuffs(!). If you think you have the authority to arrest another citizen, how can you also claim the authority to forcefully resist a citizen who is doing the same to you?

    Also, I realize there is a difference between detaining a store patron when you have a good reason to believe they are a thief, and detaining someone just for not showing you a receipt as they are walking away from the cash register.

    Even still, lots of stuff to think about here.

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    To be honest, I think this whole thing is a moot point.

    The chance of being restrained and cuffed for failure to show a reciept is very very slim to nill. Like I alluded to in my previous posts, most major corporations and stores have very very clear policies in regards to detaining or even touching patrons.

    When I worked at Target the cuffs only came out if there was a threat of violence or enough of a theft that it would constitute a felony and we would be turning them over to the local LEOs to press charges. 9 out 10 folks were let go when we go back the merch. and filed a tresspass order against them.

    If you are ever detained, let them and then stick it to them in court for a hefty lawsuit. Same goes for unfavorable LEO encounters. Comply comply comply, fight it out later via lawyer.

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    soloban wrote:
    The chance of being restrained and cuffed for failure to show a reciept is very very slim to nill. Like I alluded to in my previous posts, most major corporations and stores have very very clear policies in regards to detaining or even touching patrons.
    This has been posted before, but kinda illustrates the bad end of what can go wrong:

    http://www.michaelrighi.com/2007/09/...-circuit-city/

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    Wynder wrote:
    This has been posted before, but kinda illustrates the bad end of what can go wrong:

    http://www.michaelrighi.com/2007/09/...-circuit-city/
    Follow the links around a bit.

    I was a little confused by the links on his site, but I can't find where he was arrested or charged for not showing the receipt. It seems the only charge he faced was obstruction by refusing to show the responding LEO his driver's license, an action the statutes don't criminalize--he's only required to give his name andaddress. It seems the prosecutor dropped the charges after he agreed to not sue and couple other things he was forced to do when a life circumstance prevented him from taking it the distance.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Just because I have the right to do something doesn't mean it is prudent to do it. I have the right toinsult and use obscenities, that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

    It's similar to being stopped and unlawfully arrested by an officer of the law. 99% of the time it doesn't pay to resist arrest, instead you should let them detain you and fight it in court. But there are times it makes sense.Such as if you don't know the person arresting is an officer and you are certain that you can win the case in court (ie you aren't doing anything remotely close to looking suspicious). Also remember that forthe judge and jury it doesn't matter what happened but what can be proven in court. And like Citizen said get a voice recorder (a lot of the new mp3 players have an audio recording feature).

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    Only once has a bag checker at a Best Buy INSISTED ON seeing my recipt. I had about 250$ worth if items in my bag that I purchased. I informed him it was my property at this point since I had paid for it and did not have to let him see it. He said they would assume I stole it if I didn't sooo...I tell him he can follow me over to customer service then while I empty all the items out of my bag. When I do he matches it to the recipt and says everything checks out. I then look at the person at the service desk and inform him I wish to return all these items because the guy at the door treated me like a shoplifter. The manager tried to apologize and turn the "corporate policy" thing. Like I told them, if you SAW me take something I can see you wanting to search my bags but to WATCH me walk the 3 feet from the register to the door and insist on searching my bag....screw you.

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    I wondered if the citizens arrest issue would come up. The merchant need only have "probable cause" to apprehend someone. For a citizens arrest there must be a felony committed "in fact".

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    N00blet45 wrote:
    Just because I have the right to do something doesn't mean it is prudent to do it.
    Like carrying a gun?

    That argument is the mainstay of LEO's and anti's the country over... If you don't want your rights, don't assert them. But then, don't begrudge those that do.

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    Wynder wrote:
    N00blet45 wrote:
    Just because I have the right to do something doesn't mean it is prudent to do it.
    Like carrying a gun?

    That argument is the mainstay of LEO's and anti's the country over... If you don't want your rights, don't assert them. But then, don't begrudge those that do.
    But it's up to you to decide. The gun grabbers can argue all they want that you don'tNEED to carry but it's up to you to decide if you WANT to carry. Your rights do not need to be justified to be exercised, hence the word right and not privilege.

    I may want to carry a gun into a post office, and according to the constitution it is my right but I also don't want to go to jail. I weigh thereward against the riskand I determine that I'll just go to UPS instead (they have better prices usually anyways).

    Similarly it may be my right to resist an unlawful arrest but when the officer has his weapon pointed at my head I may decide that my life is not worth resisting an arrest that I could fight in court.

    As the saying goes, "Discretion is the better part of valor."

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    Montanya wrote:
    Only once has a bag checker at a Best Buy INSISTED ON seeing my recipt. I had about 250$ worth if items in my bag that I purchased. I informed him it was my property at this point since I had paid for it and did not have to let him see it. He said they would assume I stole it if I didn't sooo...I tell him he can follow me over to customer service then while I empty all the items out of my bag. When I do he matches it to the recipt and says everything checks out. I then look at the person at the service desk and inform him I wish to return all these items because the guy at the door treated me like a shoplifter. The manager tried to apologize and turn the "corporate policy" thing. Like I told them, if you SAW me take something I can see you wanting to search my bags but to WATCH me walk the 3 feet from the register to the door and insist on searching my bag....screw you.
    I agree. Ok I am not in Ky, so maybe I should just shut up, but If I bought it and walked towards the door, it's mine and NOBODY but an LEO has any right to search it. (and only then if he has PC) I get that with club memberships, I agreed to this when I signed up, which is why I do not have any of those memberships any more.

    I always tell the wallyworld door nazi's (when I have to go there) or anywhere else that"checks", like GuitarCenter,NO, if they ask to see my property. If you suspect I stole something, call a cop. I'll happily sit there and wait for him.

    When you find out I am NOT a criminal, you owe me a HUGE apology, or I'm gonna raise a stink and a half. I am innocent until PROVEN guilty, and I refuse to be treated as if I MIGHT be guilty of something just becasue I am leaving a store. I have yet to be asked not to return to walmart/etc. with my $$, nor have I been given any reason to not return when I said no, which I would do if they give me any crap about not letting them see it.. (in fact most door persons just look at me kind of confused and then go about their business)

    We have to stop being sheep, or we'll continue to get shorn.

    Erus

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