Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Own X number of guns, require a dealer's license?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
    Posts
    3,806

    Post imported post

    So, as I was riding around Little Rock last night, a friend of mine's husband said that there was some law requiring an idividual to have a firearm dealer's license (or something similar) if you own more than a certain number of guns.

    He didn't know the exact amount, but I find this supposed law highly suspect.

    A short search did not turn up any information, but it was not a long search.

    I'd prefer to not spend the last couple of days of my vacation digging into yet another state's laws.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    3,047

    Post imported post

    The latest solicitation for money that I've gotten from the NRA mentioned a "Federal 'Arsenal License'" and describes it as "If you own more than 20 firearms (or parts such as receivers, which are regulated as firearms), or 1,000 rounds of ammunition or primers, you will need a special $300 'federal arsenal license.'" It goes on to say, "To get an 'arsenal license,' you'd have to open your home to inspections by ATF agents three times a year."

    :shock:

    ETA: Ah, here's more:
    http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/fe...8_analysis.txt

    Seems like it doesn't have much traction, fortunately, and has pretty much died. But if enough mall shootings happen, it may provide the ammunition for making more victim disarmament zones...

  3. #3
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ocean Shores, WA
    Posts
    593

    Post imported post

    Why no Mr. JackBootedThug, these 20 here are mine. Those 20 are my wife's. That 20 belong to little Bobby there and the other 20 are little Cindy's.

    :P

    LoveMyCountry

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    3,047

    Post imported post

    LoveMyCountry wrote:
    Why no Mr. JackBootedThug, these 20 here are mine. Those 20 are my wife's. That 20 belong to little Bobby there and the other 20 are little Cindy's.

    :P

    LoveMyCountry
    How do you explain the other 150 guns, then?

    Or the 100,000 rounds of ammunition...

    In a purely intellectual sense, I find the 1,000-rounds stipulation very low. That's an average of 50 rounds per gun... not very much. It seems like a 20-gun/10,000-round (whichever comes first?) standard would be a little better.

    I'd like to see a version of this legislation passed, though, with a slight change. Instead of paying the government and submitting to ATF inspections, one who has a certified "arsenal" qualifies for a waiver of all income taxes, as obviously that person is doing his part in the "War on Terrorism" and doesn't need to pay to fund it. Ah, tax refunds for purchasing guns... I can dream, can't I?

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Castle Rock, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    779

    Post imported post

    I'd say it's dead and just about buried. The bill was intro'ed 14 yrs ago and hasn't gone anywhere. Scary stuff tho...hoofa....

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,882

    Post imported post

    There's no such thing as an "arsenal license" in any case. A dealer is someone who "devotes time and attention... for the purpose of livelihood and profit" with regard to the buying and selling of firearms. You have to apply for and get approved to get such a license. They don't just hand them out because you own x number of guns. You pretty much need a storefront to get a new one approved as well - no more basement/garage "dealerships." Likewise, a collector license allows you to buy and sell approved-category ("curio and relic") firearms in interstate commerce, but not in the capacity of a dealer, as defined. Even with an FFL, the ATF cannot do site inspections more often than once per 12 months, unless it's in connection with a criminal investigation. I don't know about proposed legislation which might have created some "arsenal" category, but there's no such thing as the law stands now.

    -ljp

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
    Posts
    1,413

    Post imported post

    imperialism2024 wrote:
    The latest solicitation for money that I've gotten from the NRA mentioned a "Federal 'Arsenal License'" and describes it as "If you own more than 20 firearms (or parts such as receivers, which are regulated as firearms), or 1,000 rounds of ammunition or primers, you will need a special $300 'federal arsenal license.'" It goes on to say, "To get an 'arsenal license,' you'd have to open your home to inspections by ATF agents three times a year."
    YIKES! Even if this is completely wrong, it gives you an idea of the crazy stuff the democrats are going to try if we elect Hilary or Obama and give them control of the white house.

    Sounds like car dealer rules -- here in NV for example, I'm allowed to sell up to X number of cars with such and such time period, as a private party, otherwise I'm considered a dealer and must get license, pay taxes, etc. Same goes for unregistered cars. If I have more than X number of unregistered (or maybe untitled) vehicles on my property, my property becomes a de facto junkyard, and I must go in front of the planning commission for rezoning. I'm sure my neighbors would love that

    Anyway, aresenal license...hard to enforce in some places - how does the government know how many firearms you have? Or more to the point rounds? I buy my ammo in bulk and get at least 1000 at a time...I usually also blow through 500-1000 rounds every time I go blasting out in the desert. So I might have 1000 rounds in the house at any one time, but not for any other reason than it's a pain to drive an hour each way to go shooting, so the rare times I do it, I make a day out of it.

    Sorry to revive a thread from a few weeks ago....just sent shivers down my spine when I read about opening my home to ATF agents. YIKES!

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    3,047

    Post imported post

    timf343 wrote:
    Anyway, aresenal license...hard to enforce in some places - how does the government know how many firearms you have? Or more to the point rounds? I buy my ammo in bulk and get at least 1000 at a time...I usually also blow through 500-1000 rounds every time I go blasting out in the desert. So I might have 1000 rounds in the house at any one time, but not for any other reason than it's a pain to drive an hour each way to go shooting, so the rare times I do it, I make a day out of it.

    Sorry to revive a thread from a few weeks ago....just sent shivers down my spine when I read about opening my home to ATF agents. YIKES!
    Don't worry, you wouldn't be able to afford bulk surplus ammo anyway. It would all have to be microstamped...

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,422

    Post imported post

    From: http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/fed_bills/s_1878_analysis.txt
    "Requires a federal arsenal license for a person to possess more than 20
    firearms (see expanded definition above) or 1,000 rounds of ammunition.
    License is $300 for 3 years. Licensee is subject to the obligations and
    requirements of licensed dealers, which would include unannounced inspections
    by BATF."

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    12

    Post imported post

    federal law says you are considered a firearms dealer and must have a FFL if you sell more than 50 firearms a year.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,508

    Post imported post

    arkansascajun wrote:
    federal law says you are considered a firearms dealer and must have a FFL if you sell more than 50 firearms a year.
    I challenge you to find the law that defines "engaged in the business" as selling more than 50 guns a year.

    Just to save you some time, I'll give you this hint: it's not there.

    You're required to have an FFL anytime you are "engaged in the business of selling firearms", whether you sell 5,000 a year or two. You can also sell 5,000 a year and not be "engaged in the business", but someone with that volume is going to get a very hard look from ATF.

    The standard is "engaged in the business", and it's not defined. The old fart traders you see at every gun show, who maybe swap a couple of guns a month, have sometimes been prosecuted for dealing without an FFL. Others manage to get away for years with blatantly running a business without an FFL. It all depends on whether you get on the ATF radar.


  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    12

    Post imported post

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...18&sec=921

    note it pretty well defines who a dealer is. and also note the word INTENT in the law describing the definition of a dealer.

    as for the 50 firearms.... i mis-spoke when i said law. i actually called the BATF and asked what the threshold was for a HOBBIEST vs. the above legal description of a DEALER and they said that it was thier policy to consider 50 firearms sold within the legal defintion as a hobbiest NOTE WITHIN THE LEGAL DEFINITION of a dealer. in other words even less than 50 firearms sold by a person IN THE BUSINESS ( as codified above) is considered a dealer while more than50 firearms sold by a hobbiest is considered a dealer.

    in REALITY this is all mute because they do what they want anyway. in reality we have no rights. they break any law they want and they can charge us with anything regardless of the law. there is no justice for us anymore

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    12

    Post imported post

    here i'll quote the parts i refer to

    921 (a)(11) The term "dealer" means (A) any person engaged in the
    business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person
    engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or
    fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms,


    (21) The term "engaged in the business" means -
    (C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section
    921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to
    dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with
    the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the
    repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall
    not include
    a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or
    purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal
    collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his
    personal collection of firearms;
    (D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section
    921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to
    engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or
    business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit,
    but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional
    repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels,
    stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

    (22) The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and
    profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of
    firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit
    shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and
    repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal
    purposes or terrorism.



    EDITORS NOTE: so that is why i asked the BATF to clarify the threshold for sales to be considered a dealer. they considered one a week as a hobbiest.


  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,508

    Post imported post

    arkansascajun wrote:
    EDITORS NOTE: so that is why i asked the BATF to clarify the threshold for sales to be considered a dealer. they considered one a week as a hobbiest.
    I don't doubt your local BATFE field office told you that. I do doubt whether they actually have that as an official policy.

    It might be a guideline they use as a threshold to investigate someone, but it's not policy. ATF policy is codified by inserting it into the Code of Federal Regulations. The "50 per year" or "1 per week" is not found in either the CFR, nor the United States Code, as you yourself cited.

    ATF actually prefers it this way. If they wish, they can prosecute someone who buys a gun at one table, then sells it at another table an hour later, saying it proved his "intent" to "engage in the business".

    The vast majority of people who buy, sell, trade, and swap guns, even if they make a steady profit at it, never have to worry about ATF. For the person who becomes an ATF target, it won't matter how little buying, selling, trading, etc., they've done, and it won't matter if they lost money on every deal.

    All this arguing is just to make a point: there is no concrete threashold of "dealing", no matter what your local office tells you.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •