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Thread: Liquor establishment restriction.

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    [*]Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises. This is one of the prohibited locations for concealed carry for the Louisiana concealed carry permit. I've always had a beef with this one, in the form of they purposely don't explain it well. Don't you think they would break it down into layman terms in the FAQ section? No, because that would make too much sense.

    I've been checking it out and this is what I came up with:

    Louisiana issues 4 types of Class A retail liquor permits: (1)Class A-general retail, (2) Classs A-restaurant, (3) Class A-special and (4) Class A-retaurant-Conditional. Now, the prohibited location specifically singles out number (1), class A general retail. Naturally each permit has conditions and the requirements for the class A general retail are: must have permanent wet bar and non moveable sink, must be staffed with full time bartender, must accomodate 25 people and be at least 375 sq.ft, and the big one- A Class A General retail permit shall be issued ONLY to an establishment where the state law provides no person under the age of 18 is allowed on the premises except as provided in RS 26:90(A)(8)(a)(whichallows minors to play in a live band as long as their guardian is present).

    Here is the link for this info. http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=84790



    I'm going to use Hooter's as an example. If you notice, there is definately a dedicated bartender and that is all she is doing. The bar area is also segregated, if only by a partition. It's beginning to sound about right that you can carry in the restaurant part of the establishment and not the portion designated as the bar. But, do they have 2 permits or do they fall under the restaurant liquor licence. Also, if they do have a class A general retail are they in violation if you eat at the bar with your 10 year old son? Would they even say anything? I'm going to try and find that posted liquor licence next time. It would make sense that if they fell under a permit other than class A general retail, you could carry anywhere in there. I'm quite sure this carry restriction is for a bar, only, like a no food served bar. There is no mention of stats. like 40% food, 60% liquor or anything like that. Bottom line, to me, is that if minors are legally allowed in the establishment that serves liquor, it is OK to carry. Open or concealed. What ya think?

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    Look up the requirements to obtain a Class A liquor license, then you'll undetstand why you ARe able to carry in Hooters, and Chili's, and Applebee's. I had this same question when i first started OCing.

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    Just got an email from Sgt. Jason Starnes, confirming it is OK to carry in the restaurant part of the bar(hooters, Chili's). He's from LA State Police Concealed Weapons section.

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    Yes, apparently Hooters and Chili's DO NOT have Class A liqour licenses because their main source of profit is not from alcohol, like a bar.

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    Can you copy/paste that email here? I'd like to see his words exactly. Thanks.

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    you cannot go into the bar area w/gun..You cannot drink a beer and carry or you are in violation of permit rules..Class A is where they sell and allow you to drink there..Usually its broken into 2 sections in a restraunt....DO NOT GO IN THE BAR,you can sit w/family all day long in the dining room..If they allow kids in there ,than its safe to carry..No KIDS,NO CARRY......Its confusing ,but this is the only way to find out.......If you have a question its best to ask here than in the slammer or court,lol...

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    You can have a beer as long as your BAL stays under .05. I know that's not a lot but for most people that should be one beer an hour. I'm not advocating drinking and carrying, I'm just saying that's how the law is worded.

    We keep going in a circle about this, but again, the "bar section" of a restaurant is not how the law is worded. The law as written in the concealed carry statute says an establishment with a Class A liquor license. Those are BARS ONLY. Not restaurants with bars.

    Can anyone find me just person who had their license revoked because they were caught carrying in a restaurant bar? If they were caught, they weren't concealed properly and shouldn't be carrying to begin with.

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    Does RS 14:95.5 mean that you can't carry at all (open or concealed)in any place that sells any alcohol for on-premesis consumption? (Bold underline below is what concerns me.) http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78744
    RS 14:95.5
    §95.5. Possession of firearm on premises of alcoholic beverage outlet

    A. No person shall intentionally possess a firearm while on the premises of an alcoholic beverage outlet.

    B. "Alcoholic beverage outlet" as used herein means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are a primary or incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

    C. The provisions of this Section shall not apply to the owner or lessee of an alcoholic beverage outlet, or to an employee of such owner or lessee, or to a law enforcement officer or other person vested with law enforcement authority acting in the performance of his official duties.

    D. Whoever violates the provisions of this Section shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.

    Acts 1985, No. 765, §1.



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    XD- yes, that is what it means, and LA Carry would like to see that changed.

    HOWEVER, it is currently being interpreted in our favor (LSP and others take the implication in 1379.3 [that you CAN carry in non-Class A places]), so I would not worry, if it were me.

    Case law, AFAIK, has not set any of this in stone, though. I feel this discrepancy should be cleared up, either legislatively or judically, though.

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    so where are we right now La Carry? With permiot, you can CCW in a restaurant but not at the bar section (or is that ok at the bar section) , but we cannot OC at all in a place that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises?

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    Again, the law is ambiguous. By implication, according to 1379.3, you may carry anywhere that does not have a Class A permit (or any portion of an establishment to which the Class A permit does not apply).

    That is only by implication, though. 1379.3 also says you cannot carry where otherwise prohibited by State law, and all establishment that serve alcohol of any kind are prohibited by Statute.

    This is being INTERPRETED in our favor, so it has not yet been a problem, AFAIK, for permit holders. You may NOT open carry, by law, though in any place that serves alcohol of any kind.

    LA Carry has a stated goal, of course, of seeing this law get repealed.

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    I'm not a book smart guy.

    Help me out.

    Is this the final conclusion?



    You may carry concealed inHooters in the area of the restaurant available to minors,confirmed by the State Police, but, if you open carry in the same area of the restaurant your vulnerable to some backwoods law that conflicts with concealed carry law that says no carry in an alcohol establishment that serves?





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    Technically, you could be charged.

    However, that is not being practiced.

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    thanks....

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    Thought of another scenario.

    Because of 14.95.5 you cannot open carry at Prairieville Flea Market because you can buy beer and walk around with it. It serves, so is a beverage outlet. Concealed carry OK.

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    My understanding of the law with Resturants/Bar, and is a good thumb for me, is if an establishment which serves alcohol and if the sale of alcohol is less than 50% of total sales then you are safe. A place such as Chili's, etc, makes most of their sales from food apparently, which means you are safe to CC in that establishment.

    It's fair to say that most resturants serve alcohol especially here in La, however if you know that the majority of sales are something other than alcohol, according to the law then you are allowed to CC in that establishment.

    The only exception to that rule is if the establishment has a "no firearms allowed" sign posted in an open place. This is pretty obvious however.

    Hope this helps!

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    Welcome to the site!

    Also, no offense, but the info you posted is wrong and has no basis whatsoever in LA law. Your post sounds somewhat like TX law, but is nothing like LA law. I only mention it because you might get some people in trouble by posting misinformation about legal matters like that.

    Again, welcome, and I hope you stick around.



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    Louisiana Carry wrote:
    Welcome to the site!

    Also, no offense, but the info you posted is wrong and has no basis whatsoever in LA law. Your post sounds somewhat like TX law, but is nothing like LA law. I only mention it because you might get some people in trouble by posting misinformation about legal matters like that.

    Again, welcome, and I hope you stick around.


    Thanks for the welcome La Carry, however I did look up the law on Alcoholic establishments and searhes, and here is a copy of the law. My interpretation is based on D: Perhaps I worded my post incorrectly, by leaving off the word "resturant". However the word resturant could mean alot of things. I know alot of resturants/bars especially in the New Orleans area which could go either way. Sports bars for example that also serve food.

    Besides that, more importantly based onwhat I can understand, D of 95.4: overrules act RS 14:95.5which says a firearm can not be carried into a"alcoholic beverage outlet". But here it states in95.4 thatresturant may not be considered an "alcoholic beverage outlet" if the sales are less for alcoholic beverages than food".Perhaps I am reading way to much into this? Perhaps it's debatable?

    Again I know this is the right to search statute, however couldn't it be debated that if it were illegal to carry a firearm into a resturant which serves alcohol then whyhave D:? So does this mean you can or can not carry a weapon into a resturant which serves alcohol? If so why even mention it? Just puzzling to me perhaps?


    Perhaps I am misinterpreting the law here, but then again it is very obvious I am not attorney!

    I certainly am not trying to debate your wisdom La, I know you are a well respected and knowledgeableperson, but perhaps you could explain this in more detailand perhaps educate me/us a bit on this interpretation?
    I was told by my instructor that one can carry a CC weapon into a resturant which serves alcohol based on this criteria which I have mentioned.
    Thanks again for being so polite, with guys like you around, I will certainly hang around and learn from you!







    95.4. Consent to search; alcoholic beverage outlet



    A. Any person entering an alcoholic beverage outlet as defined herein, by the fact of such entering, shall be deemed to have consented to a reasonable search of his person for any firearm by a law enforcement officer or other person vested with police power, without the necessity of a warrant.


    B. For purposes of this Section, "alcoholic beverage outlet" means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are the primary purpose or are an incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.


    C. An "alcoholic beverage outlet" licensed to sell firearms or containing an indoor shooting gallery shall be exempt from the provisions of this Section in those areas designated for the sale of firearms or the shooting gallery.


    D. An "alcoholic beverage outlet" shall not include a restaurant if a majority of its gross receipts are from sales of food and non-alcoholic beverages.


    E. The owner of the alcoholic beverage outlet shall post a sign, at or near the entrance, that states that by the fact of entering these premises a person shall be deemed to have consented to a reasonable search of his person for any firearm by a law enforcement officer or other person vested with police power, without the necessity of a warrant.


    Added by Acts 1983, No. 524, §1.

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    That is the consent to search law. The carry law does not contain that wording. It does contain a definition in and of itself, but it does not contain the same defining words that the search statute does. In some areas of LA law, terms have the same meaning throughout the Title, and in some areas of the law, terms have the same meaning throughout a certain "part" of a chapter. However, neither of those situations seem to apply here, since the statute you quoted (which is not the statute that prohibits firearms) and the statute below each contain a definition specific to themselves as enumerated within the respective statutes.

    So what that means is that the description I believe I gave earlier in the thread is the situation with carry. What you brought up is the interesting fact that you cannot be unconstitutionally searched in establishments with <50% receipts like you can in establishments with >50% receipts. This area of our State law was ill-begotten and convoluted, to be sure.



    http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78744
    §95.5. Possession of firearm on premises of alcoholic beverage outlet

    A. No person shall intentionally possess a firearm while on the premises of an alcoholic beverage outlet.

    B. "Alcoholic beverage outlet" as used herein means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are a primary or incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

    C. The provisions of this Section shall not apply to the owner or lessee of an alcoholic beverage outlet, or to an employee of such owner or lessee, or to a law enforcement officer or other person vested with law enforcement authority acting in the performance of his official duties.

    D. Whoever violates the provisions of this Section shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.

    Acts 1985, No. 765, §1.

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    Carondalet wrote:
    Thought of another scenario.

    Because of 14.95.5 you cannot open carry at Prairieville Flea Market because you can buy beer and walk around with it. It serves, so is a beverage outlet.
    Correct.

    Concealed carry OK.

    Ambiguously Ok, as mentioned above.

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    Thanks again for your reply, again not to question your interpretation, but wouldn't this clarify that a resturant is not considered a "alcoholic beverage outlet based on this criteria"?
    This law states that a "alcoholic beverage outlet" shall not include a resturant if the majority of it's sales come from food yada yada. So from my interpretation this means that a resturant meeting this criteria is not considered a "alcoholic beverage outlet", therefore not subject to the law RS 14:95.Is this correct?
    D. An "alcoholic beverage outlet" shall not include a restaurant if a majority of its gross receipts are from sales of food and non-alcoholic beverages.

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    Yes, if the statute you were pulling that from was the one that had to do with carrying a weapon.

    However, it is not the statute that prohibits weapons, it only deals with giving statutory grounds for unconstitutional searches.

    You are merging two different statutes together in your understanding of the situation.



    Also, it is hard to read your posts when they are contained within quotes, just an FYI.

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    Yes Carondalet, perhaps I wasn't clear, I was speaking of CC not OC. I was stating that from my understanding that you could CC in a resturant if all criteria is met, based on the interpretationwhat isconsidereda "alcoholic beverage outlet"? Before RS 14.95.5 can be enforced an establishment would have to be deamed as a "alcoholic beverage outlet". According to the RS 14:95.4 a resturant meeting this criteria is not considered a ABO.

    No question a debatable post!

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    La Carry, thanks again for your infinite wisdom! I do see your point clearly, butI have to sometimes quesiton it's just my nature. I'd like to do more research on this and ask around to some of my criminal attorney friends to see what their outtake is on thislaw. I'd be willing to bet there is a loop hole in this based on what I have been told. Then again it as I have read, some people think "they are the law".

    We had a situation here at a resturant (one of the ones mentioned in this post), that a couple was walking back to their vehicle after eating at this "major chain resturant" and was robed at knife point.

    If that would've been me, I would've raised all kinds of "you know what", because of this debatable law about CC in a resturant which serves alcohol. I know several people who were robbed coming out of a resturant here in town. Well I think it's agreeable that some of the CC laws are stupid, and need not apply to those who legally can carry a firearm but then again if that were not the case we wouldn't likely be here blogging about it now would we?

    I guess it just pisses me off how it is dictated when and where we can carry our firearms! Unfortunatley criminals have no rules, which leaves us at a disadvantage in situations like this.

    Oh and by the way I am not quoting this board is kind of doing it on its own. This post for example shows that I typed a quote but when I go back in and edit it, there is no quote there. Strange.




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    italianboy wrote:
    Before RS 14.95.5 can be enforced an establishment would have to be deamed as a "alcoholic beverage outlet". According to the RS 14:95.4 a resturant meeting this criteria is not considered a ABO.
    Again, the two statutes are not dependent on each other. Again, the criteria for an "alcoholic beverage outlet" in 95.5 is not the same as it is for 95.4. Each statute contains it's own separate and different definition. If 95.5 did not have it's own definition, then you wold absolutely be right, because it would have to draw it's meaning from other statutes in that part of the Title, but it DOES have it's own definition, so you do not look elsewhere to make it mean something besides what it says.

    If you want to conceal carry in a non-Class A establishment, and you are looking for justification in LA law, you can find it, but you are looking in the wrong place.

    RS 40:1379.3 (the State CHP statute) implies that you can carry in a non-Class A beverage outlet, by including only Class A establishments in it's list of prohibited places.

    N. No concealed handgun may be carried into and no concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this Section shall authorize or entitle a permittee to carry a concealed handgun in any of the following:


    (10) Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.



    Now, it also says:

    M. No concealed handgun permit shall be valid or entitle any permittee to carry a concealed weapon in any facility, building, location, zone, or area in which firearms are banned by state or federal law.



    And 95.5 is a State law, so you have an ambiguity. There is no case law on this yet, as far as I have been made aware, but this is currently being interpreted in our favor by those who administer the CHP process.


    Look for your reasoning there, rather than transposing definitions, would be my advice. Not trying to tell you what to do, though.

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