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Liquor establishment restriction.

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Paul,
We have no "public servants."
THAT is the root of most other problems.
If/until such time as we DO have public servants, we're screwed.

I am for NO government.

These "law enforcement officers" swore an oath to uphold and defend the constitutions of both Louisiana AND the united States. They uphold neither.
Have you tried lately to have one of The Elite prosecuted for violating their oath?

Good luck if you try.
 

turbodog

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Louisiana Carry wrote:
turbodog wrote:
Caddiemaster wrote:
That was the opinion I have of his answer oh Abita drinker.

Heaven forbid him just yes or no and then explain why he said yes or no.

John

LOL

I guess I'd have to write back and just ask him that's what he meant.

Maybe point out he needs to clarify that opinion for all the cops and instructors out there that say it's ok to carry in such places. Set them straight once and for all. ;)
The thing to remember is that the Sgt. of the LSP CHP unit does not make the law, nor is he an authority on interpreting it, he is simply paid to put it into practice and enforce it. He can think is means one thing or another, but a judge's opinion is the one that matters.
Right, I know he doesn't make the law, but he IS the spokesman for the State Police on this subject. When it comes from him, it comes from the department. That's what he's there for, to be the mouthpiece of policy on this issue.

As you mentioned elsewhere, he's giving the safe, i.e. official, answer that the State Police have decided is policy on the issue of firearm carry in an alcoholic beverage outlet.

So "officially" carry is prohibited in ANY place that serves alcohol.

"Unofficially" carry is allowed in restaurants that serve alcohol but not in bars or the bar area of a restaurant.

While I believe most LEO go by the "unofficial" version, the "official" version is what will count in court. That's the same version the State Police will provide a prosecutor just like it was provided to Caddiemaster.
 

Courrèges

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The e-mail runs contrary to what the Louisiana State Police's website says:

http://www.lsp.org/handguns.html#prohibited

Apparantly, the LSP website only cites the state concealed carry law, La. R.S. 40:1379.3, passed in 1996. La. R.S. 14:95, which bars firearms possession in any establishment that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises, was passed in 1985. It is a rule of statutory construction that a subsequent law has precedent over an earlier law.

Also, here the two provisions clearly conflict. Language in a statute can *never* be interpreted as mere surplusage, and the 1996 concealed carry law contains language delineating that only certain establishments serving alcohol are off-limits. It is also a more specific law, and those also hold precedence over more general laws.

Accordingly, I don't think that this is really a case of ambiguity at all. The law is clear; it's just that there hasn't been a specific recognition of the fact that La. R.S. 40:1379.3 superseded La. R.S. 14:95 with respect to CHL holders. However, if a CHL holder challenges a conviction on this basis in court, that's the way it ought to play out.

In short, I think the e-mail is wrong.
 

Courrèges

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Also, I would argue that the whole "don't-carry-in-the-bar-portion-of-a-restaurant" rule is bogus. The CHL law doesn't bar carrying in the portion of a premises with a Class-A Restaurant Liquor Permit.

Now, if you have more than a couple of drinks, you'll be over the legal limit to carry anyway...
 

charlie12

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Nikki_Black wrote:
I know I'm bumping, but I just want to know. OCing in Chili's, Applebees, Bennigans; legal in restaurant section or not?
It's pretty clear.


RS 14:95.5

[align=justify]§95.5. Possession of firearm on premises of alcoholic beverage outlet [/align]
[align=justify]A. No person shall intentionally possess a firearm while on the premises of an alcoholic beverage outlet. [/align]
[align=justify]B. "Alcoholic beverage outlet" as used herein means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are a primary or incidental purpose of the business of the establishment. [/align]
[align=justify]C. The provisions of this Section shall not apply to the owner or lessee of an alcoholic beverage outlet, or to an employee of such owner or lessee, or to a law enforcement officer or other person vested with law enforcement authority acting in the performance of his official duties. [/align]
[align=justify]D. Whoever violates the provisions of this Section shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both. [/align]
[align=justify]Acts 1985, No. 765, §1. [/align]
 

Courrèges

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I know this was discussed earlier in the thread, but I don't see how the issue of open carry in places that sell alcohol is all that clear-cut when reading La. R.S. 14:95.4(D) in pari materia with La. R.S. 14:95.5(B). In fact, I would argue that the proper interpretation is that open carry is generally permissible in restaurants that sell alcohol, although not advisable.

The former, dealing with searches, provides that an "alcoholic beverage outlet" does not include a restaurant where a majority of its receipts do not come from the sale of alcoholic beverages, whereas the later states that an "alcoholic beverage outlet" includes all businesses where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises, regardless of whether the sale of alcoholic beverages is primary or incidental.

These don't necessary conflict. There are some places that are primarily restaurants but nevertheless make most of their money on alcohol. Likewise, there are other types of businesses that sell alcoholic beverages as a secondary source of income.

In interpreting statutes, is is generally presumed that specific terms carry the same definition throughout. This is because it would be odd to use a very precise term in the same title and yet intend for two, mutually-distinct definitions to be employed. Here, it does seem like the legislature might have intended two different definitions of "alcoholic beverage outlet," but it is not entirely clear, so would argue that this does not defeat the presumption that the same definition applies.

Furthermore, courts are supposed to apply the rule of lenity to construing criminal statutes, which provides that any ambiguities in criminal statutes are to be construed in favor of the defendant. The idea is that while ignorance of the law is no excuse, the law still needs to be clear as written. Because the legislature did not make clear whether La. R.S. 14:95.4(D) conditioned the definition in La. R.S. 14:95.5(B), which it plausibly does, it should be assumed that open carry is legal in a restaurant that serves alcohol provided that the majority of its revenue does not come from the sale of alcohol, IMO.

Of course, none of this has actually been litigated, so making this argument would come at a very steep price. It's also impossible to speculate on how the courts would ultimately decide. Accordingly, the advice is still the same -- if they serve alcohol, don't open carry there.
 

Courrèges

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mark,

Same argument. Personally, I think that a wholesale liquor establishment ban is excessive and violates the state constitution; however, it hasn't been litigated and the courts would likely uphold it as a "reasonable restriction."

In any event, you're supposed to handle statutory arguments before resorting to constitutional ones. That's basic legal doctrine.
 
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Anytime you allow the political whores who masquerade as judges to start deciding on "reasonable" restrictions of your rights, game over.

Anyone care to predict the 2nd American revolution or the first state to secede from the union?
 

georg jetson

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Courrèges wrote:
I know this was discussed earlier in the thread, but I don't see how the issue of open carry in places that sell alcohol is all that clear-cut when reading La. R.S. 14:95.4(D) in pari materia with La. R.S. 14:95.5(B). In fact, I would argue that the proper interpretation is that open carry is generally permissible in restaurants that sell alcohol, although not advisable.

The former, dealing with searches, provides that an "alcoholic beverage outlet" does not include a restaurant where a majority of its receipts do not come from the sale of alcoholic beverages, whereas the later states that an "alcoholic beverage outlet" includes all businesses where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises, regardless of whether the sale of alcoholic beverages is primary or incidental.

These don't necessary conflict. There are some places that are primarily restaurants but nevertheless make most of their money on alcohol. Likewise, there are other types of businesses that sell alcoholic beverages as a secondary source of income.

In interpreting statutes, is is generally presumed that specific terms carry the same definition throughout. This is because it would be odd to use a very precise term in the same title and yet intend for two, mutually-distinct definitions to be employed. Here, it does seem like the legislature might have intended two different definitions of "alcoholic beverage outlet," but it is not entirely clear, so would argue that this does not defeat the presumption that the same definition applies.

Furthermore, courts are supposed to apply the rule of lenity to construing criminal statutes, which provides that any ambiguities in criminal statutes are to be construed in favor of the defendant. The idea is that while ignorance of the law is no excuse, the law still needs to be clear as written. Because the legislature did not make clear whether La. R.S. 14:95.4(D) conditioned the definition in La. R.S. 14:95.5(B), which it plausibly does, it should be assumed that open carry is legal in a restaurant that serves alcohol provided that the majority of its revenue does not come from the sale of alcohol, IMO.

Of course, none of this has actually been litigated, so making this argument would come at a very steep price. It's also impossible to speculate on how the courts would ultimately decide. Accordingly, the advice is still the same -- if they serve alcohol, don't open carry there.
Ok fellow ocer's... Courreges has taken the time to outline some very good points that we should research ourselves. It would be a good exercise to see if we can come up with some counterpoints... based in "law" of course.
 

turbodog

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Courrèges wrote:
In interpreting statutes, is is generally presumed that specific terms carry the same definition throughout. This is because it would be odd to use a very precise term in the same title and yet intend for two, mutually-distinct definitions to be employed. Here, it does seem like the legislature might have intended two different definitions of "alcoholic beverage outlet," but it is not entirely clear, so would argue that this does not defeat the presumption that the same definition applies.
I'll argue that the same definition does in fact apply. I say this because the definitions are worded exactly the same.

RS 14:95.4 Consent to search...-
B. For purposes of this Section, "alcoholic beverage outlet" means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are the primary purpose or are an incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

RS 14:95.5 Possesion of firearm...-
B. "Alcoholic beverage outlet" as used herein means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are a primary or incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

The "meaning" of what is an "alcoholic beverage outlet" in both ordinances are word-for-word duplicates.
 

georg jetson

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turbodog wrote:
I'll argue that the same definition does in fact apply. I say this because the definitions are worded exactly the same.

RS 14:95.4 Consent to search...-
B. For purposes of this Section, "alcoholic beverage outlet" means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are the primary purpose or are an incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

RS 14:95.5 Possesion of firearm...-
B. "Alcoholic beverage outlet" as used herein means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are a primary or incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

The "meaning" of what is an "alcoholic beverage outlet" in both ordinances are word-for-word duplicates.
Ok brotha Tdog... darn good point... However, the exception in 95.4(D) cannot be discounted so easily.

Using the rules of statutory construction reference...
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/statutory_construction

I argue that 95.4(D) applies to both sections because...

1)"Statutes should be internally consistent. A particular section of the statute should not be inconsistent with the rest of the statute." So, applying 95.4(D) to 95.5 "only" would be internally inconsistent.
2)The implied reason for 95.4 is to better facilitate enforcing 95.5. In other words, why do you need a “search” statute except to enforce a possession statute? Because the "courts attempt to ascertain the intent of the legislature by looking at legislative history", why else would 95.4 be necessary?
3)”The Rule of Lenity: in construing an ambiguous criminal statute, a court should resolve the ambiguity in favor of the defendant.”

AND I argue that 95.4(D) does NOT apply to both sections because...

1) 95.4 in general does NOT apply to OCing because you don’t need to search someone to find out if they are OCing by definition. “Any question of statutory interpretation begins with looking at the plain language of the statute to discover its original intent.” Also, applying 95.4(D) to OCing may have an “absurd” result because the intention of 95.4 is obviously relevant to “search”.
2) “The legislature is presumed to act intentionally and purposely when it includes language in one section but omits it in another.”

My first impression of this argument was to handle it with a motion to quash provided by article 531…
http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=112598

…where it can be shown that by inspection of the law alone that it could be determined that possession of a firearm in “Chili’s” is NOT unlawful based on 95.4(D) and 95.4(E)

However, after considering the legal mess of this, I believe the trial court would deny the motion and force it to appeal. The motion should still be filed and appeal pursed to exhaustion, but monetary and / or time expense becomes a consideration.


Consider this… IF “we” were to learn and understand the law better, then “we” could accomplish at LEAST 3 things.
1) We could recognize this CRAPOLA prior to being enacted and act accordingly and / or
2) We could run for state senator or representative as a NON-attorney and POSSIBLY restore some sanity to lawmaking... No offense to attorneys intended :)
3) We could understand better when the legislature acts ultra vires and presumes that it has the power to regulate a "right" and how "we" can rebut that presumption.
 

IA-Pro

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Excellent thread.

While I lack the expertise and moral compass to throw around the legalese, I say the law is clear. Under 14:95.5, I can't possess a firearm while on the premises of an alcoholic beverage outlet (with the definition of what that means contained in the same statute - any place that serves alcohol). Period.

Under 14:95.4, I consent to a search while in an alcoholic beverage outlet (with the other definition of what that means contained in the same statute). Fine - search me. I won't have anything on me because of 14:95.5.

IMHO we need to get the expanded definition of alcoholic beverage outlet (14:95.4C & 14:95.4D) into 14:95.5, and then have 14:95.4 repealed (if not getting both repealed). Why the F are we automatically consenting to searches just because we're in a place that sells alcohol?
 

turbodog

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IA-Pro wrote:
IMHO we need to get the expanded definition of alcoholic beverage outlet (14:95.4C & 14:95.4D) into 14:95.5, and then have 14:95.4 repealed (if not getting both repealed). Why the F are we automatically consenting to searches just because we're in a place that sells alcohol?
I agree on both counts. At the least, I think getting part "D" of 14:94.4 added to 14:95.5 should be something we should push for. Even the State Police might support that effort. Their probably as tired of the ambiguity as we are.
 

Slidell Jim

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IA-Pro wrote:
Excellent thread.


IMHO we need to get the expanded definition of alcoholic beverage outlet (14:95.4C & 14:95.4D) into 14:95.5, and then have 14:95.4 repealed (if not getting both repealed). Why the F are we automatically consenting to searches just because we're in a place that sells alcohol?
+1
 
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