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Thread: CWP in PWC

  1. #1
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    As it's gotten a little colder I've decided that I'd like to have the option to CC when it's just too cold for me to OC.

    I read the directions available to me on both the VSP (Virginia State Police) website and the PWC governments website regarding applying for a CWP. I sent in my check and my paperwork which was notarized at my local bank.

    I just got a phone call from the Clerk's office asking me to fax/mail them a copy of my VADL or other photo ID so that the PWPD can perform my background check.

    Is this valid?? I mean, this sounds like an extra requirement of me and it gives me the uncomfortable choice of either mailing or faxing in a copy of my VADL.

    Anyone have this experience? I asked the Clerk's office why I had to submit a copy of my photo ID and she said that her office doesn't require it but that the PWPD does in order to do my background check. In addition, has the clock 'started' or does it start when they finally get me to relinquish my ID and perform the 'check'.

    Thoughts?

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    I did not have to provide a photocopy of my VA driver's license and I live in PWC. I got my permit around March of 2007. In my opinion I would refuse to comply. If they send you a letter saying that your application was rejected, contact VCDL and request they look into it. I believe VCDL was able to assist an armed forces member to get his CHP in VA because a Judge was rejecting applications from active duty military even though the Judge was breaking the law.

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    I'm thinking that she misread the related PWPD website information. The webpage says that I'm to show an ID if I come into the Clerks office so they can validate that I am who I am; but that since I mailed in my paperwork that I had to provide the same to my notary.

    Or, a non-resident of Virginia would be required to provide 2 pictures of him/herself for inclusion on the permit. But, I didn't see anything about the PWPD needing my VADL to process the application; only that I am to show both my permit and my ID when requested by a LEO.

    I left her a voice mail telling her roughly the same information. I'll keep people posted.

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    Not sure why this is a big deal....

    The forms you completed likely contain thesameinformation and the only think it is lacking is your photo. If you fax in a copy of your DL the photo will be black and white and not that great.

    If you are scared they police will get your photo... I can assure you that they can get it from the DMV in about 30 seconds via computer... in color.. and 5" x 7".

    I suspect your permit processis on hold till you complete this task... you can either refuse and wait much longer going to court or you can just give them a copy of your photo ID and get the ball rolling.

    It is up to you what you feel is more important.

  5. #5
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    I'd prefer a 8x11 of me drinking out of a Jar-Jar Binks beer bong.

    If only a picture is required (but I still don't see where in the documentation it requires it) and not my ID, I'll gladly send them a glamour pic of myself.

    I just have no assurance that a cop or a clerk won't use my VADL to buy a car or break a gun law in my name!!!

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    Xeni wrote:
    I'd prefer a 8x11 of me drinking out of a Jar-Jar Binks beer bong.

    If only a picture is required (but I still don't see where in the documentation it requires it) and not my ID, I'll gladly send them a glamour pic of myself.

    I just have no assurance that a cop or a clerk won't use my VADL to buy a car or break a gun law in my name!!!
    Pictures will not match...

    They have all your information now to open up a credit card account... you have nothing to lose.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Xeni wrote:
    I'd prefer a 8x11 of me drinking out of a Jar-Jar Binks beer bong.

    If only a picture is required (but I still don't see where in the documentation it requires it) and not my ID, I'll gladly send them a glamour pic of myself.

    I just have no assurance that a cop or a clerk won't use my VADL to buy a car or break a gun law in my name!!!
    Pictures will not match...

    They have all your information now to open up a credit card account... you have nothing to lose.
    Exactly. So, why do they need my ID especially since none of the documentation says I need to show it? For example, a box asking for my Social Security Number says "I'm not required to disclose". So, I put NOT DISCLOSED in that box. If the box said you MUST put it in; then I can make a concious decision to say yes - I want the permit so I must provide that information.

    I guess what I'm driving at is; if the information being requested is lawful and required then I'll provide it. If it's a 'nice to have' or 'would make our job easier', no. I can refuse to provide it and there shouldn't be a penalty since it wasn't required to begin with.

    Now, mind you, I'm not posting this to generally complain. (I will admit I'm very good at complaining as anyone that's read my posts can attest to) It would just be good to know if the law is X and if I'm following the law by providing the minimum information I need to to meet X or if the law in the County is X+Y and I must acquiesce in order to obtain permission from my local regime...er.government.

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    They should just need to look at it to verify the information is correct on your form. They don't need a copy of it. If you wish to supply it.



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    Xeni wrote:
    Is this valid?? I mean, this sounds like an extra requirement of me and it gives me the uncomfortable choice of either mailing or faxing in a copy of my VADL.
    No, it's not valid. The law states what is required. Period. Anyone suggesting that you should do it really isn't interested in protecting your rights. Petty dictators abound.



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    les_aker wrote:
    Xeni wrote:
    Is this valid?? I mean, this sounds like an extra requirement of me and it gives me the uncomfortable choice of either mailing or faxing in a copy of my VADL.
    No, it's not valid. The law states what is required. Period. Anyone suggesting that you should do it really isn't interested in protecting your rights. Petty dictators abound.
    What rights exactly.. I am curious... :?

    I would find it hard to believe the the clerk is out there f-ing with people... Asking for things that are not needed for some legitimate purpose just to violate the rights of others. Perhaps Jan 1st things changed and now they need more documentation.

    I always get a chuckle when people get all worked up aboutgivingany branch of the government their SSN when it was the government that issued it to them in the first place.

    The SSN is not a secret to the government. Government employees that access recordshave access to the SSN and can get it at any time. As many of you are well aware... the SSN on the form clearly identifies YOU if there are people that have similar names and birthdays.

    I can only imagine that the first thing the investigator does is run your VAOL and get the SSN so that he can match it up to any returns in the VCIN and NCIC databases.



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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Please excuse some of us for our hair trigger response to any CHP application requirements which are greater than what the law requires. We have seen many extra requirements where somebody in a position of petty power substitutes their judgement for that of the Legislature. It seems that you are sure that you have provided all of the statutory requirements. Your choice now is: 1. provide what they ask for, 2. try to explain to them why their request is wrong or 3. ignore the request and fight in court if necessary.

    I would try the second choice and then #3 if they are unreasonable.

    VCDL also advises that you contact the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court if you have problems. If option 2 is not working, ask for the petty tyrants to spell their names for your letter to the Chief Justice. That might provide the necessary attitude adjustment.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Is it a requirement? Yes or No? Simple question, with a simple answer.

    No.

    You can provide it if you want, but it is not required. There was an item in the VCDL alert about this, contact them if you don't want to provide the photo.

    Doesn't matter why, they ask for, or what "harm" it might do providing it.

    You are not required to provide a photo for you CHP. Yes, LEOs have access to all that information anyway, but why shouldn't they operate within the law also on something like this?


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    les_aker wrote:
    Xeni wrote:
    Is this valid?? I mean, this sounds like an extra requirement of me and it gives me the uncomfortable choice of either mailing or faxing in a copy of my VADL.
    No, it's not valid. The law states what is required. Period. Anyone suggesting that you should do it really isn't interested in protecting your rights. Petty dictators abound.

    I don't think he should do it, since it isn't a requirement of the law. But if he wishes to get his permit fast, then doing it WILL get hiim the permit.

    The courts request is unlawful.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    I would find it hard to believe the the clerk is out there f-ing with people... Asking for things that are not needed for some legitimate purpose jsut to violate the rights of others. Perhaps Jan 1st things changed and now they need more documentation.
    1. What you find hard to believe really doesn't matter.

    2. The law didn't change on Jan 1st.

    3. The law is very specific on what is needed.



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    hsmith wrote:
    I don't think he should do it, since it isn't a requirement of the law. But if he wishes to get his permit fast, then doing it WILL get hiim the permit.

    The courts request is unlawful.
    I wouldn't do it either. It only invites further violations of the law and infringements of his rights.



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    les_aker wrote:
    hsmith wrote:
    I don't think he should do it, since it isn't a requirement of the law. But if he wishes to get his permit fast, then doing it WILL get hiim the permit.

    The courts request is unlawful.
    I wouldn't do it either. It only invites further violations of the law and infringements of his rights.
    You never answered my original question....

    What law was violated?

    What rights were infringed?

    The OP can do what he decides is best for him. His application will be on hold till he decides.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    You never answered my original question....
    Yes, I did. You just chose to ignore it the same way you normally ignore things that don't fit neatly into your belief system.



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    les_aker wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    I would find it hard to believe the the clerk is out there f-ing with people... Asking for things that are not needed for some legitimate purpose jsut to violate the rights of others. Perhaps Jan 1st things changed and now they need more documentation.
    1. What you find hard to believe really doesn't matter.

    2. The law didn't change on Jan 1st.

    3. The law is very specific on what is needed.

    1. My opinion is just that. There is no need for it to matter to you.

    2. I did not say the "law.." I said "requirements" and that was geared toward that department specifically for the background checks.

    3. The courts can ask for anything that is allowed by law. They are only prohibited from requiring that the person disclose their SSN or collecting personal information they are not authorized to have.

    2.2-3800 (c)10

    The Commonwealth or any agency or political subdivision thereof shall not collect personal information except as explicitly or implicitly authorized by law.

    The permit form,by law, already collects your name, address, and DOB. The photo ID has nothing they are not entitled to have already. The photo ID only proves that the person submitting the form is the applicant.

    Why they need the photo ID can only be addressed by the court clerk.

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    les_aker wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    You never answered my original question....
    Yes, I did. You just chose to ignore it the same way you normally ignore things that don't fit neatly into your belief system.

    Let's see.... you posted two items..

    1. What you find hard to believe really doesn't matter.

    2. The law didn't change on Jan 1st.

    3. The law is very specific on what is needed.
    I wouldn't do it either. It only invites further violations of the law and infringements of his rights.
    I just don't see it.

    I see you talk about the law being "very specific" but you sure failed to actually post anything specific to back it up. You could have cited the law but you failed to do that too.

    I had to do that for you!!

    I guess you did not post it because you noticed it did not limit things as you alleged.

    So it appears that you are ignoring things that do not fit neatlyinto your inaccurate statements.

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    When I applied for mine in PWC, I couldn't "send it in", they had to be submitted in person. Had to go to the police station next door to the courthouse first for the "ID check" step, they stamped my application.

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    My friend filled out his application and my wife recalls seeing two copies of his VA OL so maybe it is needed in Fairfax too.

    He is away so I cannot ask him about it.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    les_aker wrote:
    hsmith wrote:
    I don't think he should do it, since it isn't a requirement of the law. But if he wishes to get his permit fast, then doing it WILL get hiim the permit.

    The courts request is unlawful.
    I wouldn't do it either. It only invites further violations of the law and infringements of his rights.
    You never answered my original question....

    What law was violated?

    What rights were infringed?

    The OP can do what he decides is best for him. His application will be on hold till he decides.
    The law it violates is the statute which the legislature passed. The courts can't make up requirements for the CCW, they must comply specifically with the statute.

    They are making law out of thin air, that is violating the law.

  23. #23
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    hsmith wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    You never answered my original question....

    What law was violated?

    What rights were infringed?

    The OP can do what he decides is best for him. His application will be on hold till he decides.
    The law it violates is the statute which the legislature passed. The courts can't make up requirements for the CCW, they must comply specifically with the statute.

    They are making law out of thin air, that is violating the law.
    So post the law that you know of.

    They are not making a law out of thin air either... they are requesting to see a photo ID. This is not a law.

    Please enlighten all of us and explain why the information on the photo ID is somehow different than the information on the application. The only difference would be the photo and this can be collected too.

    18.2-308 (p)

    The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall contain only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and photograph of the permittee; the signature of the Superintendent of the Virginia Department of State Police or his designee; the date of issuance; and the expiration date.


    To pick up your application you are requiredto produce aphoto ID. Are you saying that since it is not explicitly in the code that the court cannot request to see yourphoto ID toget your permit when it is ready for pick up?

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    Thundar wrote:
    Please excuse some of us for our hair trigger response to any CHP application requirements which are greater than what the law requires. We have seen many extra requirements where somebody in a position of petty power substitutes their judgement for that of the Legislature. It seems that you are sure that you have provided all of the statutory requirements. Your choice now is: 1. provide what they ask for, 2. try to explain to them why their request is wrong or 3. ignore the request and fight in court if necessary.

    I would try the second choice and then #3 if they are unreasonable.

    VCDL also advises that you contact the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court if you have problems. If option 2 is not working, ask for the petty tyrants to spell their names for your letter to the Chief Justice. That might provide the necessary attitude adjustment.
    My feelings! Dangerous precedents are being set, I feel, should we aquiesce by providing documentation that is NOT required. All about principles , really.

    Let these clerks act WITHIN the clearly defined parameters that the Legislators have decreed, and all will be well.

    TrueBrit.

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    TrueBrit wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    Please excuse some of us for our hair trigger response to any CHP application requirements which are greater than what the law requires. We have seen many extra requirements where somebody in a position of petty power substitutes their judgement for that of the Legislature. It seems that you are sure that you have provided all of the statutory requirements. Your choice now is: 1. provide what they ask for, 2. try to explain to them why their request is wrong or 3. ignore the request and fight in court if necessary.

    I would try the second choice and then #3 if they are unreasonable.

    VCDL also advises that you contact the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court if you have problems. If option 2 is not working, ask for the petty tyrants to spell their names for your letter to the Chief Justice. That might provide the necessary attitude adjustment.
    My feelings! Dangerous precedents are being set, I feel, should we aquiesce by providing documentation that is NOT required. All about principles , really.

    Let these clerks act WITHIN the clearly defined parameters that the Legislators have decreed, and all will be well.

    TrueBrit.
    So... it is not that the courts already have EVERYTHINGin the application that will match the photo ID...nor that theyneed a photofor OOS permits....

    It is thethat the courtsare asking for your photo ID and this is not clearly identified in the state code. Since the code has no linesaying they can ask for it... this MUST be wrong?

    I am going to figureothers will refuse to showtheir photo ID whenthey go to pick it up. The state code does not identify that they can ask fora photo ID at the time of pickup.

    I submit that showing a photo ID does NOT need to be written in the code. Showing a photo ID proves that the applicant is the same person submitting it. There is no crime in that.

    If this were the case.... the court could not ask for photo ID when paying your traffic ticket with a check since there is no code section saying they can do it.

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