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CWP in PWC
- Thread starter Xeni
- Start date
hsmith
Regular Member
imported post
LEO 229 wrote:
The law it violates is the statute which the legislature passed. The courts can't make up requirements for the CCW, they must comply specifically with the statute.
They are making law out of thin air, that is violating the law.
LEO 229 wrote:
The law it violates is the statute which the legislature passed. The courts can't make up requirements for the CCW, they must comply specifically with the statute.
They are making law out of thin air, that is violating the law.
imported post
hsmith wrote:
So post the law that you know of.
They are not making a law out of thin air either... they are requesting to see a photo ID. This is not a law.
Please enlighten all of us and explain why the information on the photo ID is somehow different than the information on the application. The only difference would be the photo and this can be collected too.
18.2-308 (p)
The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall contain only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and photograph of the permittee; the signature of the Superintendent of the Virginia Department of State Police or his designee; the date of issuance; and the expiration date.
To pick up your application you are requiredto produce aphoto ID. Are you saying that since it is not explicitly in the code that the court cannot request to see yourphoto ID toget your permit when it is ready for pick up?
hsmith wrote:
So post the law that you know of.
They are not making a law out of thin air either... they are requesting to see a photo ID. This is not a law.
Please enlighten all of us and explain why the information on the photo ID is somehow different than the information on the application. The only difference would be the photo and this can be collected too.
18.2-308 (p)
The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall contain only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and photograph of the permittee; the signature of the Superintendent of the Virginia Department of State Police or his designee; the date of issuance; and the expiration date.
To pick up your application you are requiredto produce aphoto ID. Are you saying that since it is not explicitly in the code that the court cannot request to see yourphoto ID toget your permit when it is ready for pick up?
TrueBrit
Regular Member
imported post
Thundar wrote:
My feelings! Dangerous precedents are being set, I feel, should we aquiesce by providing documentation that is NOT required. All about principles , really.
Let these clerks act WITHIN the clearly defined parameters that the Legislators have decreed, and all will be well.
TrueBrit.
Thundar wrote:
My feelings! Dangerous precedents are being set, I feel, should we aquiesce by providing documentation that is NOT required. All about principles , really.
Let these clerks act WITHIN the clearly defined parameters that the Legislators have decreed, and all will be well.
TrueBrit.
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TrueBrit wrote:
It is thethat the courtsare asking for your photo ID and this is not clearly identified in the state code. Since the code has no linesaying they can ask for it... this MUST be wrong?
I am going to figureothers will refuse to showtheir photo ID whenthey go to pick it up. The state code does not identify that they can ask fora photo ID at the time of pickup.
I submit that showing a photo ID does NOT need to be written in the code. Showing a photo ID proves that the applicant is the same person submitting it. There is no crime in that.
If this were the case.... the court could not ask for photo ID when paying your traffic ticket with a check since there is no code section saying they can do it.
TrueBrit wrote:
So... it is not that the courts already have EVERYTHINGin the application that will match the photo ID...nor that theyneed a photofor OOS permits....
It is thethat the courtsare asking for your photo ID and this is not clearly identified in the state code. Since the code has no linesaying they can ask for it... this MUST be wrong?
I am going to figureothers will refuse to showtheir photo ID whenthey go to pick it up. The state code does not identify that they can ask fora photo ID at the time of pickup.
I submit that showing a photo ID does NOT need to be written in the code. Showing a photo ID proves that the applicant is the same person submitting it. There is no crime in that.
If this were the case.... the court could not ask for photo ID when paying your traffic ticket with a check since there is no code section saying they can do it.
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
imported post
Xeni wrote:
All the information they need, by law, is included in the application to the extent that the form is made in consultation with VA State Police.
They do not need, and are not authorized by law, torequire a photo ID in order to perform a backround check.
When I submitted my application in person in 2006,prior tolearning about extra-legal requirements, the person working the counter refused my ID when I asked if they needed it.
Please donot comply with extra-legal requirements. The government can work within the bounds of the law.
Please take it up with VCDL if a politeexplanation, in writing, doesn't work.
You can read for yourself all the requirements, starting at section "D",at: http://tinyurl.com/5uwnq
Also, it might not be a bad idea to call and make really sure that there is no misunderstanding of what they want and why they want it.It may just be a simple mistatement by theperson at the clerks officer. It wouldn't hurt to clear this possibility out of the way early.
Xeni wrote:
All the information they need, by law, is included in the application to the extent that the form is made in consultation with VA State Police.
They do not need, and are not authorized by law, torequire a photo ID in order to perform a backround check.
When I submitted my application in person in 2006,prior tolearning about extra-legal requirements, the person working the counter refused my ID when I asked if they needed it.
Please donot comply with extra-legal requirements. The government can work within the bounds of the law.
Please take it up with VCDL if a politeexplanation, in writing, doesn't work.
You can read for yourself all the requirements, starting at section "D",at: http://tinyurl.com/5uwnq
Also, it might not be a bad idea to call and make really sure that there is no misunderstanding of what they want and why they want it.It may just be a simple mistatement by theperson at the clerks officer. It wouldn't hurt to clear this possibility out of the way early.
Xeni
Regular Member
imported post
LEO 229 wrote:
The issue I have heartburn with is... The clerk said the Court can process my application AS IS but that the POLICE are requiring my VADL in order to run the background check.
Since I've presented my ID to the Clerk's office by giving them a notarized and signed application I've affirmed my identity to a representative of the State (the notary) and have fulfiled my obligations under the law. But, why am I now being asked to reproduce it again for another agency? Especially one that can take my application and run my vitals off that form. It's good enough for the Court but not good enough for the Police?
I can understand if i was not a resident of Virginia that my picture would be required. In the code section you referenecd P1 specifically mentions a photograph for NON-RESIDENTS. I'm a Virginian, why would I need to conform to a Virginia alient policy?
I think you mentioned that it's no big deal for someone to run me based on the information I have on the form. I submit that I've done all that is required of me and that since it's no big deal they should do the work and I should get my piece of paper in a few weeks.
I sent the form in the mail because i didn't WANT to pick it up. Im lazy like that. :lol:
LEO 229 wrote:
The issue I have heartburn with is... The clerk said the Court can process my application AS IS but that the POLICE are requiring my VADL in order to run the background check.
Since I've presented my ID to the Clerk's office by giving them a notarized and signed application I've affirmed my identity to a representative of the State (the notary) and have fulfiled my obligations under the law. But, why am I now being asked to reproduce it again for another agency? Especially one that can take my application and run my vitals off that form. It's good enough for the Court but not good enough for the Police?
I can understand if i was not a resident of Virginia that my picture would be required. In the code section you referenecd P1 specifically mentions a photograph for NON-RESIDENTS. I'm a Virginian, why would I need to conform to a Virginia alient policy?
I think you mentioned that it's no big deal for someone to run me based on the information I have on the form. I submit that I've done all that is required of me and that since it's no big deal they should do the work and I should get my piece of paper in a few weeks.
I sent the form in the mail because i didn't WANT to pick it up. Im lazy like that. :lol:
Xeni
Regular Member
imported post
One final comment that I found out about earlier but forgot to mention.
When the Clerk's office called my home (yes, I disclosed my phone number - for shame!!) they asked my wife for my physical description, scars, tats, and other identifiable marks.
I only wish I was there to say that I had obscene word scrawled on my chest (that would rock to see that on the CHP card) and that my Alias is...Tatar Salad.
:celebrate
One final comment that I found out about earlier but forgot to mention.
When the Clerk's office called my home (yes, I disclosed my phone number - for shame!!) they asked my wife for my physical description, scars, tats, and other identifiable marks.
I only wish I was there to say that I had obscene word scrawled on my chest (that would rock to see that on the CHP card) and that my Alias is...Tatar Salad.
:celebrate
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
imported post
Xeni wrote:
I don't recall anywhere in the law 18.2-308 (linked in my post above) that the local police are allowed to set ID requirements. Perhapsfingerprinting, but nothing about ID requirements.
I wouldn't give in to the demand. However, its your choice. If your'reannoyedby it, and you have every right to be, then now is the time to push back.
Please also ignore the side debate. Its secondary and somewhat chaff.
Xeni wrote:
I don't recall anywhere in the law 18.2-308 (linked in my post above) that the local police are allowed to set ID requirements. Perhapsfingerprinting, but nothing about ID requirements.
I wouldn't give in to the demand. However, its your choice. If your'reannoyedby it, and you have every right to be, then now is the time to push back.
Please also ignore the side debate. Its secondary and somewhat chaff.
Xeni
Regular Member
imported post
Citizen wrote:
I left a VM for the Clerk's office telling her that I think she confused me with a non-resident permit request. If I get a call back from her tommorow asking for it again; I'll just take off work and head to Manassas and talk it over in person.
I've already made it clear to my wife that if I get denied, I'm requesting an appeal for a Judge. I figure it this way, I pay taxes, so I want service with a smile.
We'll see what happens. My guess is they wanted to ask, I said no, they're gonna shrug it off as I'm just some gun nut with a grudge and they'll process the paperwork anyways. If not, I ask for a Judge.
Citizen wrote:
I left a VM for the Clerk's office telling her that I think she confused me with a non-resident permit request. If I get a call back from her tommorow asking for it again; I'll just take off work and head to Manassas and talk it over in person.
I've already made it clear to my wife that if I get denied, I'm requesting an appeal for a Judge. I figure it this way, I pay taxes, so I want service with a smile.
We'll see what happens. My guess is they wanted to ask, I said no, they're gonna shrug it off as I'm just some gun nut with a grudge and they'll process the paperwork anyways. If not, I ask for a Judge.
rlh2005
Founder's Club Member
imported post
LEO 229 wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
The italicized section of the law you quoted is actually 18.2-308 (P1). It deals with VSP issuing permits to non-Virginia residents.
TEX1N
Regular Member
imported post
LEO 229 wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
Just FYI, the paragraph you quoted (which was actually P1 not P), was for nonresident permits and doesn't apply to resident permits:
TEX1N
Regular Member
imported post
It looks like rlh2005 is a faster draw than me!
It looks like rlh2005 is a faster draw than me!
les_aker
Regular Member
imported post
Xeni wrote:
That in a nutshell is why the request is stupid, even if it wasn't a violation of the law. Your form is signed and complete as submitted.
As for whether the clerk needs to make sure it's your form, that just doesn't wash either. People mail them in, and there's nothing wrong with someone dropping off a form for someone else if the form is complete as submitted.
It's a fight worth fighting and in the long run it impacts the rights of everyone.
Xeni wrote:
That in a nutshell is why the request is stupid, even if it wasn't a violation of the law. Your form is signed and complete as submitted.
As for whether the clerk needs to make sure it's your form, that just doesn't wash either. People mail them in, and there's nothing wrong with someone dropping off a form for someone else if the form is complete as submitted.
It's a fight worth fighting and in the long run it impacts the rights of everyone.
Mike
Site Co-Founder
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LEO 229 wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
No, it better not be - it better be processed as required by law, end of story.
Mike
Site Co-Founder
imported post
Xeni wrote:
The clock HAS already started on your application - if it gets denied, contact me by private message so we can line up an appeal attorney and funding (if you need it).
Xeni wrote:
No, No, No. PW Clerk and PD have been told before they cannot make people show ID to get their CHP, and their procedures were changed some months ago to stop this nonesense - call the Clerk back and politely decline, explaining that no photo ID can be required to apply for CHPs, and that you expect an answer within 45 days of the filing date or for the CLERK to provide you with a de facto permit.
The clock HAS already started on your application - if it gets denied, contact me by private message so we can line up an appeal attorney and funding (if you need it).
Mike
Site Co-Founder
imported post
LEO 229 wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
That copying of IDs by FFX County got fixed years ago - I jusr re-applied yesterday in FFX County and no ID copy was even requested.