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Thread: Transitioning From CC to OC?

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    I know that there was some discussion earlier in another thread about transitioning from CC to OC and the possibility of "Brandishing".

    My question is, if I am CC'ing because it is cold outside (perhaps I am wearing winter coat) and I enter a building and decide to take my jacket off. I have just transitioned from CC to OC (assuming that I am wearing my sidearm in a visible holster on my side); am I possibly guilty of brandishing?

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    "It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony."

    My take on this is since carrying a concealed firearm where legal and the taking you coat off which makes you now OC'ing where legal is not a manner to reasonably induce fear and since you have not pointed or removed the firearm from the holster
    I dont see where you have wnet outside of the law.
    I have been wondering this myself and am curious to hear others responses.

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    bruins499 wrote:
    "It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony."

    My take on this is since carrying a concealed firearm where legal and the taking you coat off which makes you now OC'ing where legal is not a manner to reasonably induce fear and since you have not pointed or removed the firearm from the holster
    I don't see where you have went outside of the law.
    I have been wondering this myself and am curious to hear others responses.
    Your thoughts echo my own. It only became a question in an earlier thread where a person was in an argument with somebody and he pulled up his shirt exposing his weapon during the argument. In that situation, I think that person could be reasonably thought to be enticing fear in the other individual.




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    Agreed in that case I would say the argument/heated discussion and the man showing his firearm at that time could have been a cause for reasonably induced fear.

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    Here is the code on brandishing (ยง 18.2-282) that bruins499 quoted:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-282

    I don't have time right now, but maybe other can give you references on VA case law concerning brandishing. That is going to be the real place you will need too look for an answer to your question.

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    bruins499 wrote:
    Agreed in that case I would say the argument/heated discussion and the man showing his firearm at that time could have been a cause for reasonably induced fear.
    Unless said man was doing it in a self defense situation.
    However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.

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    eyesopened wrote:
    bruins499 wrote:
    Agreed in that case I would say the argument/heated discussion and the man showing his firearm at that time could have been a cause for reasonably induced fear.
    Unless said man was doing it in a self defense situation.
    However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.

    Another good point. The argument that I was referring too began with the person who was NOT carrying who began yelling profanities and the CC person asked her to please quiet down. That is when she let into him, and he subsequently revealed that he was carrying. It would be an interesting law school exercise to see played out in mock court.

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    Slowhand wrote:
    I know that there was some discussion earlier in another thread about transitioning from CC to OC and the possibility of "Brandishing".

    My question is, if I am CC'ing because it is cold outside (perhaps I am wearing winter coat) and I enter a building and decide to take my jacket off. I have just transitioned from CC to OC (assuming that I am wearing my sidearm in a visible holster on my side); am I possibly guilty of brandishing?
    No....

    Just because you remove your coat when insideis not going to be brandishing. The only time this could ever come into question is if you were exchanging fighting words with someone and you removed the coat for the purpose to show you had a gun... possibly outside in the cold. This would not be a normal act and a little hard to explain.

    Even then.... it is a hard to prove.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Slowhand wrote:
    I know that there was some discussion earlier in another thread about transitioning from CC to OC and the possibility of "Brandishing".

    My question is, if I am CC'ing because it is cold outside (perhaps I am wearing winter coat) and I enter a building and decide to take my jacket off. I have just transitioned from CC to OC (assuming that I am wearing my sidearm in a visible holster on my side); am I possibly guilty of brandishing?
    No....

    Just because you remove your coat when insideis not going to be brandishing. The only time this could ever come into question is if you were exchanging fighting words with someone and you removed the coat for the purpose to show you had a gun... possibly outside in the cold. This would not be a normal act and a little hard to explain.

    Even then.... it is a hard to prove.
    Thanks, LEO229. I didn't think it would be brandishing either, but I always want to make sure before I do something to get myself in trouble. That is why I love this forum. I can get the advice that I need so that I don't make a mistake later.

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    Not advice.... just my educated opinion.

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    I agree with LEO 229 - ICC 90% and OC 10% - During the winter I usually wear a shoulder rig under my coat and have had no problemswhen I've had to gofrom cc to oc.

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    as long as the gun stays in the holster, I don't think it would EVER be brandishing, unless like LEO229 said, if you were "flashing" it to someone as a threat.

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    nova wrote:
    as long as the gun stays in the holster, I don't think it would EVER be brandishing, unless like LEO229 said, if you were "flashing" it to someone as a threat.
    I can think of several ways you could be brandishing without unholstering your firearm, but they all involve a very clear implication to someone that you intend to draw it if they don't do something.

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    Always be aware of your surroundings. The general public may interpret adjusting, exposing, withdrawing of a firearm as "brandishing". Legally it isn't, however an anti-gunner may take offense and call the police. I never adjust my belt, withdraw my gun from it's holster, or cock it within sight of the general public. I OC 100% and will go to the restroom or wait until I get to my car to do anything. Maybe that seems paranoid, but I call it being responsible.

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    Placementvs.Calibur wrote:
    Always be aware of your surroundings. The general public may interpret adjusting, exposing, withdrawing of a firearm as "brandishing". Legally it isn't, however an anti-gunner may take offense and call the police. I never adjust my belt, withdraw my gun from it's holster, or cock it within sight of the general public. I OC 100% and will go to the restroom or wait until I get to my car to do anything. Maybe that seems paranoid, but I call it being responsible.
    Actually, I the same way. I take great pains to make sure that my hand doesn't even appear to be near my pistol grip. I don't want anyone saying I was "reaching for the gun". Sometimes if I have to pull my belt up I move my hands in front and back so there is no question. Some people are so paranoid, I don't need to give them an excuse.

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    See especially http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...tx/1032714.txtfor case law on brandishing by "mere exposure" of a firearm.

    It is possible to commit brandishing when another person sees that you posses a firearm.
    With respect to the present offenses, the evidence shows that on June 20, 2002,
    Peter Molina, an engraver of tombstones, was working in an Alexandria cemetery accompanied by his wife, who was his business partner. Morris appeared on the scene, dragging a bicycle and smelling of alcohol. He sat on a tombstone, staring
    at Molina and his wife, cursing and mumbling. After about five minutes, Morris looked at Molina's wife and said, "I'd like that." When Molina asked Morris what he had said, Morris stood up, "raised up his shirt," and "showed [Molina] this gun he had
    in his waistband."
    Because Molina did not know "what the situation was or what
    the situation could be," he became "worried about" his wife's
    safety and decided he "needed to get her out of there." They
    got into their truck and, as they were leaving the cemetery,
    they encountered Officer Vincent Omundson of the Alexandria
    Police Department. Molina told Officer Omundson "there was a man back there
    with a gun in his waistband."
    IANAL but I would suggest that it will be the circumstances under which it takes place that determines if the court/jury believes you violated 18.2-282, as has been said by previous posters.

    stay safe.

    skidmark

    *edited to add quote from case decision

    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Slowhand wrote:
    My question is, if I am CC'ing because it is cold outside (perhaps I am wearing winter coat) and I enter a building and decide to take my jacket off. I have just transitioned from CC to OC (assuming that I am wearing my sidearm in a visible holster on my side); am I possibly guilty of brandishing?
    No. There is no law against OC in Virginia, thus OC cannot be considered brandishing under the circumstances you describe.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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