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Thread: How open is open?

  1. #1
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    How much of the gun and/or holster must be exposed for weapon carry to be considered not concealed? Or, phrased a different way, how much of the weapon must be hidden before the law would say you are concealing it?

    For instance
    In Arizona, lawful open carry means having more than 1/2" square of the holster (excluding the belt loops) or weapon exposed
    (see http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2006...pen-carry.html).

    Thanks for any guidance anyone can provide.

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    I'm not familiar w/DE law so I can't point you to any statute.

    If your state has a defining statute, or a definition of "open" or "concealed" you go by that.
    If your state does not have such a definition then go by common definition.
    Concealed means "hidden from plain sight"

    I forget what state defined (or clarified through case law) that open carry means that "the firearm is readily discernable as a firearm to a reasonable person" (paraphrased)

    I'm sure someon will have the link handy to that...



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    Open carry in DE has no written law and is legal except in Dover, and maybe Newark. Most people would define open carry as visible in a holster with no concealing garment. OWB or in some sort of visible holster would be concidered open carry. Concealed would be not visible and you need a permit.

    The way the laws are written, if you have a ccdw you can legally carry open in Dover.

    You can carry concealed, with a permit, almost everwhere. Look through the threads on this forum for more detail about both open and concealed in DE. Many folks have done a lot of research into the laws and openly discuss both, as well as any laws on the books.

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    From my phone conversations w/ the AG's office and LEO's about the subject, it sounds to me like 100% of the holster (and gun) must be visible to be legally"open carry" whichto me means if any part of the gun/holster is hidden, you could be in a heap of trouble.

    So, basically, you can't use an IWB holster and just have the gripsticking out. That's still too concealed. You can't use an OWB holster and cover half of it up w/ a coat. That's concealed, too.

    It has to be easily seen, and totally seen, from what my research and "discussions" have uncovered. Otherwise, it could be considered a "concealed weapon" and unless you have your CCDW permit here in DE, you're screwed then.

    To be 100% sure for OC, it has to be 100% seen out in the open.



    Dave
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    Really? because the CCDW laws use the term "hidden from common observation." I think a pistol uncovered in an IWB holster with the butt and at least 1/3 of the slide hanging out would be commonly observed as a handgun. It'd be pretty difficult to mistake it for something else.

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    gotarheels03 wrote:
    Really? because the CCDW laws use the term "hidden from common observation." I think a pistol uncovered in an IWB holster with the butt and at least 1/3 of the slide hanging out would be commonly observed as a handgun. It'd be pretty difficult to mistake it for something else.
    Well, to "conceal" something means "to prevent disclosure or recognition of" or "to place out of sight" or as you quote "hidden," which means "being out of sight or not readily apparent" (in a word: "concealed") ... basically NOT being able to see the gun at all. For those of us w/ a CCDW (which does not include me), that means completely hiding the firearm from everyone's sight. No problem. That's the whole point of the CCDW permit - to be legally allowed to totally conceal your firearm.

    Contrast that to "open" which means "completely free from concealment :exposed to general view or knowledge." Note the key word in that definition: COMPLETELY free from concealment. Completely, like totally, absolutely NO doubt that it ISN'T trying to be concealed.

    And that's where trouble lies: to an officer, your gun in the IWB holster with only the grip showing is NOT being carried openly (i.e. totally out in the open), and therefor you'll be arrested for trying to conceal a deadly weapon w/out a permit. Which means bye bye to your right to keep and bear arms (at least until you're off of probation). Face it: just having the grip of a gun sticking out of your pants (even in an IWB holster) looks the same to an officer as some punk walking into a liquor store carrying his gun just stuck down his pants....

    So, from what I understand about the laws and definitions, and from talking w/ LEO's from the City, County, and State, we only have two choices:

    1. Get a CCDW permit, and carry totally concealed
    2. Don't get a CCDW permit, and carry totally open.

    There is no in-between. It's 100% either or.

    Your interpretation of the law and definitions may vary, which is fine, but I'm trying NOT to get tossed in jail over a technicality which may or may not be working in my favor. And ignorance of the law is not an excuse with this stuff.

    I'm not trying to sound like the guru of OC/CC laws or holiert han thou; I'm just going by what I've been told by the entities that matter: AG, Wilmington Police, NCC Police, and DSP. The NCC Police are the ones that told me you can't carry openly in a IWB. It has to be totally OWB, totally in plain sight.
    Dave
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    dave_in_delaware wrote:
    I'm not trying to sound like the guru of OC/CC laws or holiert han thou; I'm just going by what I've been told by the entities that matter: AG, Wilmington Police, NCC Police, and DSP. The NCC Police are the ones that told me you can't carry openly in a IWB. It has to be totally OWB, totally in plain sight.
    Dave, how did they communicate this to you? Email? Letter by chance?

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    I can't understand why anyone would want to open carry with an IWB holster. perhaps its just my shape, but I find them uncomfortable. personally If I'm open carrying then I might as well be comfortable.

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    HWynder wrote:
    dave_in_delaware wrote:
    I'm not trying to sound like the guru of OC/CC laws or holiert han thou; I'm just going by what I've been told by the entities that matter: AG, Wilmington Police, NCC Police, and DSP. The NCC Police are the ones that told me you can't carry openly in a IWB. It has to be totally OWB, totally in plain sight.
    Dave, how did they communicate this to you? Email? Letter by chance?
    Haha.. you wish. Nothing in writing. Just conversations via telephone.
    Dave
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    ijusam wrote:
    I can't understand why anyone would want to open carry with an IWB holster. perhaps its just my shape, but I find them uncomfortable. personally If I'm open carrying then I might as well be comfortable.
    Just to clarify, using an IWB is NOT legally open carry....

    Some IWB are VERY comfortable. I have a Crossbreed Super Tuck (w/ adjustable cant) and I totally forget I am carrying a gun. I can sit at my drafting table for hours and not remember I'm carrying.

    For anyone curious: Call or email Mark at Croddbreed and he'll give you info. Heck, he even has a "try it for 2 weeks" guarantee, too! http://www.crossbreedholsters.com/

    Dave
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    dave_in_delaware wrote:
    Some IWB are VERY comfortable. I have a Crossbreed Super Tuck (w/ adjustable cant) and I totally forget I am carrying a gun. I can sit at my drafting table for hours and not remember I'm carrying.
    Yeah, but you have a pretty svelt shape -- us more 'rotund' guys still might have an issue with the grip digging into our.. handles.

    As for the legality of IWB holsters, I'd like to see someone drop a note to the AG's office asking that question instead of asking the police. I think they're sick of me at this point -- any takers?

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    dave_in_delaware wrote:
    Just to clarify, using an IWB is NOT legally open carry....

    Some IWB are VERY comfortable. I have a Crossbreed Super Tuck (w/ adjustable cant) and I totally forget I am carrying a gun. I can sit at my drafting table for hours and not remember I'm carrying.

    For anyone curious: Call or email Mark at Croddbreed and he'll give you info. Heck, he even has a "try it for 2 weeks" guarantee, too! http://www.crossbreedholsters.com/
    Thanks for the link. that one looks more comfortable as the leather extends up high enough to reduce the hammer from digging in. with a name like super tuckI assume you can tuck your shirt while concealing? I think that a leo who sees a gun in an IWB at 30 feet will have a hard time proving concealed.

    edited because I can't remember to spellcheck before I hit sned

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    ijusam wrote:
    Thanks for the link. that one looks more comfortable as the leather extends up high enough to reduce the hammer from digging in. with a name like super tuckI assume you can tuck your shirt while concealing? I think that a leo who sees a gun in an IWB at 30 feet will have a hard time proving concealed.

    edited because I can't remember to spellcheck before I hit sned
    Yes, it was designed to tuck your shirt in, thanks to the belt clips he includes. Look at some of the videos and pix on Crossbreed's website. It's pretty amazing.

    And I didn't look over my post before hitting send, either. It's not Croddbreed.
    Dave
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