Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Criminal trespass

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, Washington, USA
    Posts
    227

    Post imported post

    I've been browsing the RCW tonight and have a question regarding Criminal trespass - Defenses RCW 9A.52.090.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.52.090

    It says in part:
    "Criminal trespass - Defenses
    In any prosecution under RCW 9A.52.070 and 9A.52.080, it is a defense that:

    ...
    (2) The premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises;"
    ...


    What does 'complied with all lawful conditions imposed' mean? Is asking me to not OC a lawful condition or not? Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Silverdale, Washington, USA
    Posts
    58

    Post imported post

    I read these forums with interest. I do not make a habit of OC, I prefer CCW. You are not trespassing....until you have been asked to leave, if you refuse you will be arrested/fined for trespassing (we reserve the right to refuse service). Not to hijack the thread but could you answer me one question? We are fortunate to live in must issue state for CCW. Why not carry concealed? In my opinion if you open carry and the bad guys decide to pull off a crime.....you are now a target in their way, vice maybe capable of being part of the solution since they don't know you are armed if CCW.

  3. #3
    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA, , USA
    Posts
    741

    Post imported post

    Sean wrote:
    I read these forums with interest. I do not make a habit of OC, I prefer CCW. You are not trespassing....until you have been asked to leave, if you refuse you will be arrested/fined for trespassing (we reserve the right to refuse service). Not to hijack the thread but could you answer me one question? We are fortunate to live in must issue state for CCW. Why not carry concealed? In my opinion if you open carry and the bad guys decide to pull off a crime.....you are now a target in their way, vice maybe capable of being part of the solution since they don't know you are armed if CCW.
    Welcome to the board. Think about this. If you CC, then you might be part of the problem. All the BG sees is a target rich environment. Yes, you may become part of the solution but only after it has become a problem. On the other hand, if you OC you are preventing a target rich environment. The BG must now make a choice to take a chance or move on to easier pickings. Guess what most will do . So, By OCing you might be the solution by preventing the problem.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2,227

    Post imported post

    Sean wrote:
    until you have been asked to leave, if you refuse you will be arrested/fined for trespassing.

    That's my understanding.

    And usually a no trespass order needs to be issued to stop return visits.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, Washington, USA
    Posts
    227

    Post imported post

    Bad guys want soft targets. They don't want to get into shoot-outs. If they walk into a store and see an armed person there they will move on.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Centennial, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    1,412

    Post imported post

    What does 'complied with all lawful conditions imposed' mean? Is asking me to not OC a lawful condition or not? Thoughts?
    Seems fairly straightforward. 'Complied with all lawful conditions imposed' simply means you were abiding by all (lawful) rules. I don't see why asking you not to OC would be any different than asking you not to do anything else they dont like, e.g. playing loud music, running around etc.

    Sean wrote:
    I read these forums with interest. I do not make a habit of OC, I prefer CCW. You are not trespassing....until you have been asked to leave, if you refuse you will be arrested/fined for trespassing (we reserve the right to refuse service). Not to hijack the thread but could you answer me one question? We are fortunate to live in must issue state for CCW. Why not carry concealed? In my opinion if you open carry and the bad guys decide to pull off a crime.....you are now a target in their way, vice maybe capable of being part of the solution since they don't know you are armed if CCW.
    Do you have any statistics to back up your claim? I hear a lot more stories along the lines of "possible BG saw my gun and made a beeline for the door" than "BG opened fire so I suprised him by drawing from concealment". I have personal experience with the first situation, and have heard a lot less about the second. My opinion is that seeing armed citizens keeps criminals from attempting crime. The evidence that criminals tend to go after soft targets is overwhelming. Why don't NFL linebackers get mugged? They make a lot of money, right? Yet muggers tend to go after targets that look weak. Why go after someone you know is armed when the guy next to him probably isn't?

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, Washington, USA
    Posts
    227

    Post imported post

    What keeps a store from saying women aren't allowed in? I understand there is Federal protection for that kind of thing.

    Isn't the 2nd amendment Federal protection? and Article 1 Section 24 of the Washington State constition? Obviously not anymore.

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    nathan wrote:
    SNIP What does 'complied with all lawful conditions imposed' mean? Is asking me to not OC a lawful condition or not? Thoughts?
    "Conditions imposed on access to..." means restrictions or conditions set by the property owner.

    I'm guessing they stuck the word lawful in front just so nobody could try to get out of a trespassing charge by claiming they were complying with an unlawful condition.For example in this club you have to buy and consume drinks, but you're underage. So, technically, you were doing what their policy required,but it was illegal for you to do it, and that was the whole reason they wanted to throw you out, butyou wouldn't leave. If the law wasn't worded thatway, they couldn't get rid of you by saying you're trespassing. Well, theircharge oftrespassing wouldn't stick anyway.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Kitsap County, Washington, USA
    Posts
    573

    Post imported post

    You are not tresspassing in Washington until you are asked to leave. If you do not leave as soon as you are asked to, then you are tresspassing and police involvement is likely to ensue. Also, signs do not hold any legal weight in Washington.

    Sean wrote:
    We are fortunate to live in must issue state for CCW. Why not carry concealed? In my opinion if you open carry and the bad guys decide to pull off a crime.....you are now a target in their way, vice maybe capable of being part of the solution since they don't know you are armed if CCW.
    And Sean, you are more than welcome to your opinions. I myself do not OC because it is winter and mainly I wear a suit that covers my firearm up anyway. But I fully support the rights that these people exercise on a daily basis. Some people don't have permits, nor do they want to have one for a God given right. Some people want to have the social aspect so people know it is a consitutional right to bear arms and spread the word of firearm ownership. Others just do it cause they want to. Some like to CC, some like to OC. So I think your sentence should be changed to: "We are fortunate to live in a state that "allows" both modes of carry."

  10. #10
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Auburn, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,558

    Post imported post

    Or, better yet, G27:

    "We are fortunate to live in a state thataffrims the God-given right to carry openly and permits concealment with a license."
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Kitsap County, Washington, USA
    Posts
    573

    Post imported post

    just_a_car wrote:
    Or, better yet, G27:

    "We are fortunate to live in a state thataffrims the God-given right to carry openly and permits concealment with a license."
    I guess that's what you get with a UW education instead of a WSU. :celebrate

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kitsap Co., Washington, USA
    Posts
    332

    Post imported post

    OC vs CC is a debate with no resolution. There are good arguments for both, but the most important thing (and the one thing we must continue to support each other on) is the idea of CARRYING.

    Carry in a way that gives you comfort and confidence and you'll get nothing but support from me as long as you're carrying AND conducting yourself in a responsible, self-controlled, law-abiding manner.



  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Union, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,256

    Post imported post

    Sean wrote:
    I read these forums with interest. I do not make a habit of OC, I prefer CCW. You are not trespassing....until you have been asked to leave, if you refuse you will be arrested/fined for trespassing (we reserve the right to refuse service). Not to hijack the thread but could you answer me one question? We are fortunate to live in must issue state for CCW. Why not carry concealed? In my opinion if you open carry and the bad guys decide to pull off a crime.....you are now a target in their way, vice maybe capable of being part of the solution since they don't know you are armed if CCW.
    Tell me how many times you have been around when a crime was committed. I would suppose never and there is you answer. The odds are you will be struck by lightning before you see a crime inperson.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Silverdale, Washington, USA
    Posts
    58

    Post imported post

    Don't get me wrong, I don't really care either way...as long as I can carry if I want to open or concealed. I was just asking why some prefer open carry. Another question I have is- can I wear my 686 in a hip holster (OC) and my 38 special concealed at the same time? I have a little trouble wearing the 6" barrel wheel gun concealed...lol

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    SeaTac, Washington, USA
    Posts
    434

    Post imported post

    Sean

    I look at it as protecting my right to open carry. If no one OCed and the police decided it was a bad practice which they would find cause to arrest or harasspeople for then the right is lost. So even though technically legal the police arresting you and hassling you would in actuality mean the right no longer existed.I believe we were close to this point.For that reasonOC is important. To maintain knowledge of the right and thus defend the right itself.

    Historically concealed carry has been the trait of bad guys thus requiring permits and background checks. It is only lately that it has become the preferred method of carry by so many. I do not understand why people feel saferabout concealed carry. Kind of reminds me of sticking your head in the sand. I don't want to know who has a gun around me.If they hide it so I can't see itthen itcan't hurt me. I prefer to see who is carrying.

    Don't get me wrong. I am not anti CC. Most of the time I CC myself. But I feel everyone who carries a gun should OC once in a while if for no other reason than to maintain and protect the right. As OC goes away the CC becomes hidden then deep hidden thenmake absolutely sure no one can see the gun until it becomes ludicrous. Until the right to self protection and the second amendment are both lost. So OC once in a while it is your right and your responsibility. (my opinion)

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Union, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,256

    Post imported post

    Sean wrote:
    Don't get me wrong, I don't really care either way...as long as I can carry if I want to open or concealed. I was just asking why some prefer open carry. Another question I have is- can I wear my 686 in a hip holster (OC) and my 38 special concealed at the same time? I have a little trouble wearing the 6" barrel wheel gun concealed...lol
    As long as you have a permit, you canCC while OCing. They are not mutually exclusive. I've concealed a 5" 1911 of years and a 6" 686+ on occasion. Shoulder holster work best for long barrels or SOB.

  17. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    9,193

    Post imported post

    irfner wrote:
    I do not understand why people feel saferabout concealed carry.
    Which people, the carrier or the public? Some carriers feel safer concealed for their concern that their gun will be taken. These may be the same ones that insist on an 'approved' holster (triple-retention eXtreme Never-release(tm)). Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Tacoma, WA, ,
    Posts
    886

    Post imported post

    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Tell me how many times you have been around when a crime was committed. I would suppose never and there is you answer. The odds are you will be struck by lightning before you see a crime inperson.
    Odds of being struck by lightning (in a given year)= 1 in 700,000

    http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm

    Odds of being the VICTIM of a violent crime (not just a witness but and actual VICTIM) = 1 in 47.619 (2005 Data)

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/...viortrdtab.htm

    I have never been struck by lightning, but I have thwarted my own mugging (and possibly worse) once, and been in two other situations (both would have been armed robbery, and again, possibly worse) where my hand has gone to my weapon with the intent to draw. All werewhat could have been expected from a "reasonable person" in the samesituation, per WA state law. If crime was THAT scarce, I'd probably leave my gun at home. But, since most of the population lives in areas that are POPULATED, (unlike Union, WA) it would be fitting to expect (and plan for) the worst. I have and it's already saved me from the above crimes.

    I have been carrying for only three and a half years. The first incident and one of the second happened within 6 months of my starting to carry.



  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Union, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,256

    Post imported post

    G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Tell me how many times you have been around when a crime was committed. I would suppose never and there is you answer. The odds are you will be struck by lightning before you see a crime inperson.
    Odds of being struck by lightning (in a given year)= 1 in 700,000

    http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm

    Odds of being the VICTIM of a violent crime (not just a witness but and actual VICTIM) = 1 in 47.619 (2005 Data)

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/...viortrdtab.htm

    I have never been struck by lightning, but I have thwarted my own mugging (and possibly worse) once, and been in two other situations (both would have been armed robbery, and again, possibly worse) where my hand has gone to my weapon with the intent to draw. All werewhat could have been expected from a "reasonable person" in the samesituation, per WA state law. If crime was THAT scarce, I'd probably leave my gun at home. But, since most of the population lives in areas that are POPULATED, (unlike Union, WA) it would be fitting to expect (and plan for) the worst. I have and it's already saved me from the above crimes.

    I have been carrying for only three and a half years. The first incident and one of the second happened within 6 months of my starting to carry.

    I do expect and plan for the worst. My nearest cop in at least 12 miles away and I plan on solving any problems myself orin partnership with thewife long before the deputy arrives. I just think that whether you OC or CC is irrelevant, just as long as you do carry. But to think that open carry makes you a bigger target is pretty much the same kind of thinking the anti's use, very flawed. Oh yeah, I've been carrying for over 40 years.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    , South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    2,247

    Post imported post

    G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Tell me how many times you have been around when a crime was committed. I would suppose never and there is you answer. The odds are you will be struck by lightning before you see a crime inperson.
    Odds of being struck by lightning (in a given year)= 1 in 700,000

    http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm

    Odds of being the VICTIM of a violent crime (not just a witness but and actual VICTIM) = 1 in 47.619 (2005 Data)

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/...viortrdtab.htm

    I have never been struck by lightning, but I have thwarted my own mugging (and possibly worse) once, and been in two other situations (both would have been armed robbery, and again, possibly worse) where my hand has gone to my weapon with the intent to draw. All werewhat could have been expected from a "reasonable person" in the samesituation, per WA state law. If crime was THAT scarce, I'd probably leave my gun at home. But, since most of the population lives in areas that are POPULATED, (unlike Union, WA) it would be fitting to expect (and plan for) the worst. I have and it's already saved me from the above crimes.

    I have been carrying for only three and a half years. The first incident and one of the second happened within 6 months of my starting to carry.

    I guess I am just weird because I have never been the victim of a violent crime but have been struck by lightning 4 times. I have actually felt the shock of lightning 4 times but never directly struck. Three of thosetimes were in a three minute time frame.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Tacoma, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,327

    Post imported post

    I guess I am just weird because I ... have been struck by lightning 4 times.
    Please don't take it personally if I don't go hiking with you!

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Tacoma, WA, ,
    Posts
    886

    Post imported post

    kparker wrote:
    I guess I am just weird because I ... have been struck by lightning 4 times.
    Please don't take it personally if I don't go hiking with you!
    Dang-nabit!!! I can't find the "Roll on the Floor laughing" smiley!!!!

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Silverdale, Washington, USA
    Posts
    58

    Post imported post

    When I lived in Idaho, open carry was really quite common. In fact the local Law enforcement would not issue a CCW unless it was an extroardinary circumstance or work related. The sherriff said wear it in plain sight so everyone knows....I liked him. Now however since I retired from the Navy my hair is long and I have a full beard and I ride a harley...so open carry would really upset most of the local citizens just based on their preconceived notions of what a "biker" is. I rode my bike to a local range with my winchester slung over my shoulder one day to sight in my rifle for hunting season, the sherriffs deputy that pulled me over said they had recieved over 10 phone calls in 5 minutes about me. We laughed about it and he let me go. I can just imagine the calls they would get if I was open carrying a pistol on my bike.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Tacoma, WA, ,
    Posts
    886

    Post imported post

    Sean wrote:
    ...... I rode my bike to a local range with my winchester slung over my shoulder one day to sight in my rifle for hunting season, the sherriffs deputy that pulled me over said they had recieved over 10 phone calls in 5 minutes about me. We laughed about it and he let me go.
    Sean, you're my hero. That's frickin' AWESOME!!!

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    North of Seattlle, South of Canada, Washington, USA
    Posts
    173

    Post imported post

    Criminal Trespass in a nutshell:

    You have to be clearly warned either in person or via a written warning (preferred) initially. No time distance between initial warning to action however. CT warnings must be issued by the authority for the location or property owner.

    Violate the warning and you get arrested.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •