Criminal trespass

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I've been browsing the RCW tonight and have a question regarding Criminal trespass - Defenses RCW 9A.52.090.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.52.090

It says in part:
"Criminal trespass - Defenses
In any prosecution under RCW 9A.52.070 and 9A.52.080, it is a defense that:

...
(2) The premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises;"
...


What does 'complied with all lawful conditions imposed' mean? Is asking me to not OC a lawful condition or not? Thoughts?

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I read these forums with interest. I do not make a habit of OC, I prefer CCW. You are not trespassing....until you have been asked to leave, if you refuse you will be arrested/fined for trespassing (we reserve the right to refuse service). Not to hijack the thread but could you answer me one question? We are fortunate to live in must issue state for CCW. Why not carry concealed? In my opinion if you open carry and the bad guys decide to pull off a crime.....you are now a target in their way, vice maybe capable of being part of the solution since they don't know you are armed if CCW.

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Sean wrote:

I read these forums with interest. I do not make a habit of OC, I prefer CCW. You are not trespassing....until you have been asked to leave, if you refuse you will be arrested/fined for trespassing (we reserve the right to refuse service). Not to hijack the thread but could you answer me one question? We are fortunate to live in must issue state for CCW. Why not carry concealed? In my opinion if you open carry and the bad guys decide to pull off a crime.....you are now a target in their way, vice maybe capable of being part of the solution since they don't know you are armed if CCW.

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Welcome to the board. Think about this. If you CC, then you might be part of the problem. All the BG sees is a target rich environment. Yes, you may become part of the solution but only after it has become a problem. On the other hand, if you OC you are preventing a target rich environment. The BG must now make a choice to take a chance or move on to easier pickings. Guess what most will do . So, By OCing you might be the solution by preventing the problem.

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Sean wrote:

until you have been asked to leave, if you refuse you will be arrested/fined for trespassing.

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That's my understanding.

And usually a no trespass order needs to be issued to stop return visits.

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Bad guys want soft targets. They don't want to get into shoot-outs. If they walk into a store and see an armed person there they will move on.

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What does 'complied with all lawful conditions imposed' mean? Is asking me to not OC a lawful condition or not? Thoughts?

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Seems fairly straightforward. 'Complied with all lawful conditions imposed' simply means you were abiding by all (lawful) rules. I don't see why asking you not to OC would be any different than asking you not to do anything else they dont like, e.g. playing loud music, running around etc.

Sean wrote:

I read these forums with interest. I do not make a habit of OC, I prefer CCW. You are not trespassing....until you have been asked to leave, if you refuse you will be arrested/fined for trespassing (we reserve the right to refuse service). Not to hijack the thread but could you answer me one question? We are fortunate to live in must issue state for CCW. Why not carry concealed? In my opinion if you open carry and the bad guys decide to pull off a crime.....you are now a target in their way, vice maybe capable of being part of the solution since they don't know you are armed if CCW.

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Do you have any statistics to back up your claim? I hear a lot more stories along the lines of "possible BG saw my gun and made a beeline for the door" than "BG opened fire so I suprised him by drawing from concealment". I have personal experience with the first situation, and have heard a lot less about the second. My opinion is that seeing armed citizens keeps criminals from attempting crime. The evidence that criminals tend to go after soft targets is overwhelming. Why don't NFL linebackers get mugged? They make a lot of money, right? Yet muggers tend to go after targets that look weak. Why go after someone you know is armed when the guy next to him probably isn't?

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What keeps a store from saying women aren't allowed in? I understand there is Federal protection for that kind of thing.

Isn't the 2nd amendment Federal protection? and Article 1 Section 24 of the Washington State constition? Obviously not anymore.

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nathan wrote:

SNIP What does 'complied with all lawful conditions imposed' mean? Is asking me to not OC a lawful condition or not? Thoughts?

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"Conditions imposed on access to..." means restrictions or conditions set by the property owner.

I'm guessing they stuck the word lawful in front just so nobody could try to get out of a trespassing charge by claiming they were complying with an unlawful condition.For example in this club you have to buy and consume drinks, but you're underage. So, technically, you were doing what their policy required,but it was illegal for you to do it, and that was the whole reason they wanted to throw you out, butyou wouldn't leave. If the law wasn't worded thatway, they couldn't get rid of you by saying you're trespassing. Well, theircharge oftrespassing wouldn't stick anyway.

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You are not tresspassing in Washington until you are asked to leave. If you do not leave as soon as you are asked to, then you are tresspassing and police involvement is likely to ensue. Also, signs do not hold any legal weight in Washington.

Sean wrote:

We are fortunate to live in must issue state for CCW. Why not carry concealed? In my opinion if you open carry and the bad guys decide to pull off a crime.....you are now a target in their way, vice maybe capable of being part of the solution since they don't know you are armed if CCW.

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And Sean, you are more than welcome to your opinions. I myself do not OC because it is winter and mainly I wear a suit that covers my firearm up anyway. But I fully support the rights that these people exercise on a daily basis. Some people don't have permits, nor do they want to have one for a God given right. Some people want to have the social aspect so people know it is a consitutional right to bear arms and spread the word of firearm ownership. Others just do it cause they want to. Some like to CC, some like to OC. So I think your sentence should be changed to: "We are fortunate to live in a state that "allows" both modes of carry."

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Or, better yet, G27:

"We are fortunate to live in a state thataffrims the God-given right to carry openly and permits concealment with a license."

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just_a_car wrote:

Or, better yet, G27:

"We are fortunate to live in a state thataffrims the God-given right to carry openly and permits concealment with a license."

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I guess that's what you get with a UW education instead of a WSU. :celebrate

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OC vs CC is a debate with no resolution. There are good arguments for both, but the most important thing (and the one thing we must continue to support each other on) is the idea of CARRYING.

Carry in a way that gives you comfort and confidence and you'll get nothing but support from me as long as you're carrying AND conducting yourself in a responsible, self-controlled, law-abiding manner.

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Sean wrote:

I read these forums with interest. I do not make a habit of OC, I prefer CCW. You are not trespassing....until you have been asked to leave, if you refuse you will be arrested/fined for trespassing (we reserve the right to refuse service). Not to hijack the thread but could you answer me one question? We are fortunate to live in must issue state for CCW. Why not carry concealed? In my opinion if you open carry and the bad guys decide to pull off a crime.....you are now a target in their way, vice maybe capable of being part of the solution since they don't know you are armed if CCW.

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Tell me how many times you have been around when a crime was committed. I would suppose never and there is you answer. The odds are you will be struck by lightning before you see a crime inperson.

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Don't get me wrong, I don't really care either way...as long as I can carry if I want to open or concealed. I was just asking why some prefer open carry. Another question I have is- can I wear my 686 in a hip holster (OC) and my 38 special concealed at the same time? I have a little trouble wearing the 6" barrel wheel gun concealed...lol

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Sean

I look at it as protecting my right to open carry. If no one OCed and the police decided it was a bad practice which they would find cause to arrest or harasspeople for then the right is lost. So even though technically legal the police arresting you and hassling you would in actuality mean the right no longer existed.I believe we were close to this point.For that reasonOC is important. To maintain knowledge of the right and thus defend the right itself.

Historically concealed carry has been the trait of bad guys thus requiring permits and background checks. It is only lately that it has become the preferred method of carry by so many. I do not understand why people feel saferabout concealed carry. Kind of reminds me of sticking your head in the sand. I don't want to know who has a gun around me.If they hide it so I can't see itthen itcan't hurt me. I prefer to see who is carrying.

Don't get me wrong. I am not anti CC. Most of the time I CC myself. But I feel everyone who carries a gun should OC once in a while if for no other reason than to maintain and protect the right. As OC goes away the CC becomes hidden then deep hidden thenmake absolutely sure no one can see the gun until it becomes ludicrous. Until the right to self protection and the second amendment are both lost. So OC once in a while it is your right and your responsibility. (my opinion)

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Sean wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I don't really care either way...as long as I can carry if I want to open or concealed. I was just asking why some prefer open carry. Another question I have is- can I wear my 686 in a hip holster (OC) and my 38 special concealed at the same time? I have a little trouble wearing the 6" barrel wheel gun concealed...lol

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As long as you have a permit, you canCC while OCing. They are not mutually exclusive. I've concealed a 5" 1911 of years and a 6" 686+ on occasion. Shoulder holster work best for long barrels or SOB.

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irfner wrote:

I do not understand why people feel saferabout concealed carry.

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Which people, the carrier or the public? Some carriers feel safer concealed for their concern that their gun will be taken. These may be the same ones that insist on an 'approved' holster (triple-retention eXtreme Never-release(tm)). Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety.

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

Tell me how many times you have been around when a crime was committed. I would suppose never and there is you answer. The odds are you will be struck by lightning before you see a crime inperson.

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Odds of being struck by lightning (in a given year)= 1 in 700,000

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm

Odds of being the VICTIM of a violent crime (not just a witness but and actual VICTIM) = 1 in 47.619 (2005 Data)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm

I have never been struck by lightning, but I have thwarted my own mugging (and possibly worse) once, and been in two other situations (both would have been armed robbery, and again, possibly worse) where my hand has gone to my weapon with the intent to draw. All werewhat could have been expected from a "reasonable person" in the samesituation, per WA state law. If crime was THAT scarce, I'd probably leave my gun at home. But, since most of the population lives in areas that are POPULATED, (unlike Union, WA) it would be fitting to expect (and plan for) the worst. I have and it's already saved me from the above crimes.

I have been carrying for only three and a half years. The first incident and one of the second happened within 6 months of my starting to carry.

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G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Tell me how many times you have been around when a crime was committed. I would suppose never and there is you answer. The odds are you will be struck by lightning before you see a crime inperson.

Click to expand...

Odds of being struck by lightning (in a given year)= 1 in 700,000

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm

Odds of being the VICTIM of a violent crime (not just a witness but and actual VICTIM) = 1 in 47.619 (2005 Data)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm

I have never been struck by lightning, but I have thwarted my own mugging (and possibly worse) once, and been in two other situations (both would have been armed robbery, and again, possibly worse) where my hand has gone to my weapon with the intent to draw. All werewhat could have been expected from a "reasonable person" in the samesituation, per WA state law. If crime was THAT scarce, I'd probably leave my gun at home. But, since most of the population lives in areas that are POPULATED, (unlike Union, WA) it would be fitting to expect (and plan for) the worst. I have and it's already saved me from the above crimes.

I have been carrying for only three and a half years. The first incident and one of the second happened within 6 months of my starting to carry.

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I do expect and plan for the worst. My nearest cop in at least 12 miles away and I plan on solving any problems myself orin partnership with thewife long before the deputy arrives. I just think that whether you OC or CC is irrelevant, just as long as you do carry. But to think that open carry makes you a bigger target is pretty much the same kind of thinking the anti's use, very flawed. Oh yeah, I've been carrying for over 40 years.

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G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Tell me how many times you have been around when a crime was committed. I would suppose never and there is you answer. The odds are you will be struck by lightning before you see a crime inperson.

Click to expand...

Odds of being struck by lightning (in a given year)= 1 in 700,000

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm

Odds of being the VICTIM of a violent crime (not just a witness but and actual VICTIM) = 1 in 47.619 (2005 Data)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm

I have never been struck by lightning, but I have thwarted my own mugging (and possibly worse) once, and been in two other situations (both would have been armed robbery, and again, possibly worse) where my hand has gone to my weapon with the intent to draw. All werewhat could have been expected from a "reasonable person" in the samesituation, per WA state law. If crime was THAT scarce, I'd probably leave my gun at home. But, since most of the population lives in areas that are POPULATED, (unlike Union, WA) it would be fitting to expect (and plan for) the worst. I have and it's already saved me from the above crimes.

I have been carrying for only three and a half years. The first incident and one of the second happened within 6 months of my starting to carry.

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I guess I am just weird because I have never been the victim of a violent crime but have been struck by lightning 4 times. I have actually felt the shock of lightning 4 times but never directly struck. Three of thosetimes were in a three minute time frame.