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Interesting comments on Gun Control

Comp-tech

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IndianaBoy79 wrote:
I ran across these comments while browing the web. Interesting how poeple from other countries think about our laws. How do we combat theese beliefs and win them over instead of alienating them? Any thoughts are welcome.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2007/04/17/gun_control_the_us_view.html
What a bunch of friggin' morons......notice that the fact of 2 million+ violent crimes stopped by legally armed citizens was never mentioned.
 

eyesopened

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Well what do you expect from a society that had their guns taken away from them? They've been cowed into thinking that guns are the problem. There was a comment posted that mentioned the writer did not believe the problems were guns, but instead society (I should mention though, the writer did not seem to be Pro 2A, but at least realized that guns are not the issue, it is the person that wields it to harm others).
 

IndianaBoy79

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I apoligize for the blind link. Guardian is a popular news blog in the UK. It would have been too much to cut and paste the entire page. Feel free to google the site before clicking on it.
 

I_Hate_Illinois

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I started to read the 'comments', if you can call them that, but I had to stop. I was becoming too depressed and angry that I belong to the same species as the douche bags who wrote in on there. :banghead::cuss: It never ceases to amaze me how much bullshit they come up with. Like saying that the U.S. has the highest number of gun related crimes or murders in the world. Come on. Don't give me that shit. And if gun control was so great, why has Australia's and Britain's crime rates gone off the charts since the citizens were disarmed?
 

IndianaBoy79

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I would agree with you arming pilots, with weapons designed not to penetrate the plane. But passengers? Just because of the nature of where you are 30,000 feet in the air with a thin piece of aluminum protecting you from the outside, I don't think it's wise to arm passengers. I wouldn't even wan't a well trained person to shoot ina plane...way too dangerous. There are limits I suppose, and I can always choose to drive somewhere.
 

BarryKirk

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Planes are actually a lot tougher against bullets than most people realize. What is very damaging to them is explosives. Bullets put small holes in the skin. Small holes are

a) Easy to plug in flight.

b) Have a very minimal effect on the structural integrity of the plane as a whole.

c) Example from WWII, a DC3 was fired upon by a Japanese Zero, which unloaded every round it had into the DC3 from close range. This was a Passenger plane, which then proceded to make it home. ( No armor or anything special )

d) Small holes in the planes skin, don't instantly depressurize the plane. And anything bigger than the smallest jet (15 people ) probably has sufficient pumping capacity to make up the air loss from even a .45 hole.

There is the possibility of the bullet actually hitting something critical, but planes have a huge number of redundent systems. Even an engine hit, which is a lot smaller target than most people realize, won't take down an aircraft. Most likely, the engine would still be usable and even if it had to shut down, all passenger aircraft can continue after losing an engine.
 

Tomahawk

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IndianaBoy79 wrote:
I would agree with you arming pilots, with weapons designed not to penetrate the plane. But passengers? Just because of the nature of where you are 30,000 feet in the air with a thin piece of aluminum protecting you from the outside, I don't think it's wise to arm passengers. I wouldn't even wan't a well trained person to shoot ina plane...way too dangerous. There are limits I suppose, and I can always choose to drive somewhere.

I'll take my chances. Airplanes are not very vulnerable to pistol bullets, and all that Hollywood stuff about people being sucked out of bulletholes and windows is BS.

In any case, it should be up to the airline who carries and who doesn't. The airplane is their property, and they should be allowed to arm pilots. If they don't like armed passengers, they should provide a check system to store your sidearms in a locker until you arrive.

Sadly, the airlines have chosen to hand off their responsibility as business owners to the federal government, both because they don't want to pay for security when they can steal it from the taxpayer, and because they don't want to be the ones who tell you what you can't carry. So they lobbied hard for the current setup after 911, corporatism at work.
 

N00blet45

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"After the deadliest mass shooting in American history..."

This guyneeds to do a little research. Obviously he hasn't looked up the sad history of theAmerican settlers vs the natives. A lot of massacres. Virginia Tech was a tragedy yes but not the worst mass shooting. I think the thousands of dead natives would agree to that. A whole village getting butchered at the hands of American soldiers doesn't give methat warm andfuzzy feeling. Maybe he doesn't think they count because thedesire to save bullets meant that bayonets and boot heels were alsoused on the unarmed.
 

imperialism2024

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In my experience speaking with the British, there is also a small but very dedicated group of gun owners/supporters. Unfortunately, they are overwhelmed by anti-gun (or exceedingly apathetic) sh**ple driven by media exaggeration. Basically like this country, but with the balance tipped even more.
 

Doug Huffman

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BarryKirk wrote:
Planes are actually a lot tougher against bullets than most people realize. What is very damaging to them is explosives. Bullets put small holes in the skin. Small holes are

a) Easy to plug in flight.

b) Have a very minimal effect on the structural integrity of the plane as a whole.

c) Example from WWII, a DC3 was fired upon by a Japanese Zero, which unloaded every round it had into the DC3 from close range. This was a Passenger plane, which then proceded to make it home. ( No armor or anything special )

d) Small holes in the planes skin, don't instantly depressurize the plane. And anything bigger than the smallest jet (15 people ) probably has sufficient pumping capacity to make up the air loss from even a .45 hole.

There is the possibility of the bullet actually hitting something critical, but planes have a huge number of redundent systems. Even an engine hit, which is a lot smaller target than most people realize, won't take down an aircraft. Most likely, the engine would still be usable and even if it had to shut down, all passenger aircraft can continue after losing an engine.

Please do not give such nonsense currency.

The chances of a significant bullet strike from the inside is lower than in air combat and is easily calculated and vanishingly low. It is on the net, YMMV.

Pressure control in a turbo-whatever airliner is by bypass-air at a relatively constant pressure. Cabin pressure is regulated by a variable orifice in exiting air, that may be a foot in diameter. There is sufficient flow to maintain pressure through many bullet holes.

Believe nothing you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your pre-existing world view. The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.
 

BarryKirk

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Doug Huffman wrote:
Please do not give such nonsense currency.

The chances of a significant bullet strike from the inside is lower than in air combat and is easily calculated and vanishingly low. It is on the net, YMMV.

Pressure control in a turbo-whatever airliner is by bypass-air at a relatively constant pressure. Cabin pressure is regulated by a variable orifice in exiting air, that may be a foot in diameter. There is sufficient flow to maintain pressure through many bullet holes.

Believe nothing you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your pre-existing world view. The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

A foot in diameter is also somewhat misleading. I suspect that the orfice is fully open at Sea Level to prevent pressurizing the cabin well above sea level.

At altitude, you would probably have that orfice regulated down to a much smaller size.

The airlines care nothing about the effects on an airliner from a bullet hole. All they care about is fuel efficiency and meeting air replacement regulations.

Pressurized air is very expensive in fuel usage. So, if the inlet is a fixed size, which actually does make sense, then it would probably be sized to provide enough air for the minimum number of air exchanges needed for that airline, with a little extra margin.

I seem to remember a mid size jet, about 10-15 years ago had an accident where 8 feet of the top of the fusealage ripped off at about 20,000 to 30,000 feet. Passengers seated under that area could look straight up and see open sky. Basically the jet turned into a convertable. Memory is fuzzy but I think it was about 100 passengers onboard. No deaths. Although a lot soiled underware.
 

Doug Huffman

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BarryKirk wrote:
Doug Huffman wrote:
Please do not give such nonsense currency.

The chances of a significant bullet strike from the inside is lower than in air combat and is easily calculated and vanishingly low. It is on the net, YMMV.

Pressure control in a turbo-whatever airliner is by bypass-air at a relatively constant pressure. Cabin pressure is regulated by a variable orifice in exiting air, that may be a foot in diameter. There is sufficient flow to maintain pressure through many bullet holes.

Believe nothing you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your pre-existing world view. The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

A foot in diameter is also somewhat misleading. I suspect that the orfice is fully open at Sea Level to prevent pressurizing the cabin well above sea level.

At altitude, you would probably have that orfice regulated down to a much smaller size.

The airlines care nothing about the effects on an airliner from a bullet hole. All they care about is fuel efficiency and meeting air replacement regulations.

Pressurized air is very expensive in fuel usage. So, if the inlet is a fixed size, which actually does make sense, then it would probably be sized to provide enough air for the minimum number of air exchanges needed for that airline, with a little extra margin.

I seem to remember a mid size jet, about 10-15 years ago had an accident where 8 feet of the top of the fusealage ripped off at about 20,000 to 30,000 feet. Passengers seated under that area could look straight up and see open sky. Basically the jet turned into a convertable. Memory is fuzzy but I think it was about 100 passengers onboard. No deaths. Although a lot soiled underware.
'Regulating' is what a variable orifice does. A huge volume volume of air is what by-pass air is and the 'jet' producing reaction thrust. I couldn't calculate the infinitesimal cost of cabin air, perhaps you can. It is not "expensive in fuel usage" or by any other measure.

I have no earthly idea what Hawaii Air's 737 event has to do with bullet holes in a cabin. It was a fatigue event.

I don't know what is your area of expertise but you're out of it.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$
 

Mike

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May 13, 2006
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Mainsail wrote:
What comments? All I see is a blind link I'm not sure is safe to follow.
?? It's a link - just click on it. We encourage folks to post links on this board, not a lot of text that nobody knows from where it came from.
 

OC-Glock19

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[align=left]The cabin pressure control system continuously monitors the airplane’s ground and flight modes, altitude, climb, cruise, or descent modes as well as the airplane’s holding patterns at various altitudes. It uses this information to allow air to escape continuously from the airplane by further opening or closing the cabin pressure outflow valve in the lower aft fuselage. The outflow valve is constantly being positioned to maintain cabin pressure as close to sea level as practical, without exceeding a cabin to outside pressure differential of 8.60 psi. [/align]


[align=left]The incident BarryKirk was referring to tragically did involve loss of life. On April 28th, 1988, a B-737 operated by Aloha Airlines left Hilo, Hawaii Island bound for Honolulu, Oahu. When it approached the cruising height of 22,000 feetnear Maui Island, a sudden decompression occurred in the cabin just behind the cockpit. A large part of the cabin structure was lost. Although one cabin attendant was sucked out, the aircraft succeeded in making an emergency landing at the airport in Maui, because fortunately one hydraulic system had survived.[/align]

[align=left]
243.jpg
[/align]
 

BarryKirk

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As I said, my memory of the event is somewhat hazy, 20 years ago. The point I was trying to make, is that bullet holes in the fuselage don't kill people or take down airplanes.

I used an extreme example, of large area of the cabin open to high altitude to show that people survive events like that. In that case, the one death wasn't due to de-pressurization, but rather to having a hole large enough for a person getting sucked out of the cabin.

I don't think anybody would argue that a person would get sucked through a bullet hole.
 

Grapeshot

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Mainsail wrote:
What comments? All I see is a blind link I'm not sure is safe to follow.
Link works fine for me and comments are all veiwable.
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2007/04/17/gun_control_the_us_view.html

One comment from the link particularly caught my attention:
"Americans need to learn that guns are not defensive, they are aggresive."

So my inanimate sidearm, now has living, breathing human traits. I look down at my 1911 with much clearer vision now - while it appears to be resting comfortably on my hip, it is in fact coiled, waiting to strike and take out innocents at the first opportunity - no matter what I think or do.

People are aggressive or not, defensive when allowed to be and laws will not change that condition. Guns are inanimate objects/tools controlled by people for evil or good - our choice.

Yata hey
 
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