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Thread: Your Gun Was Made To Comfort – Not for Comfort

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    http://www.lewrockwell.com/perry/perry38.html

    Greg Perry is a regular contributor to Lew Rockwell's libertarian website, and he is consistently pro 2A. So be gentle with him, guys. At least read the whole article before letting him have it!
    SNIP...By the way, tactical strategy dictates that in general, if you live in a state such as Arizona where you can legally carry an unconcealed gun (called open carry), you shouldn’t carry openly. When I attended what is considered the world’s finest training school, Gunsite Academy located in Arizona, I just had to walk into the local Safeway supermarket carrying openly. Just once. It was the most surreal feeling. The only one who cared that I had a Government Model 1911 strapped to my side was me – everybody else was used to it.

    Once I got that out of my system, I won’t do it again. See, I don’t want the bad guys taking me out before they commence the ceremonies of murder, rape, pillage, and plunder. I want to be inconspicuous. I don’t want to wear a sportsman’s/photographer’s vest because those are known as "Shoot Me First Vests" and the bad guys know it. A fanny pack on a man who’s not an obvious tourist is another giveaway that the baddies had better take you out just in case....

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    the baddies had better take you out just in case....


    Is there any evidence of this EVER happening?

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    Is there one instance on record anywhere that a "civilian" openly carrying a firearm was intentionally targeted first during a burglary or mass shooting? Just wondering if anyone had heard a story where that occurred. I would think something like that would be reported on by the media with more detail than the actual burglary or shooting.

    If someone makes a statement regarding certain carry with the term tactics and/or tactical as basis for the statement, I usually like to see something from previous, documented events to support the claim. For example, “from a tactical perspective, it’s not advisable to return along the same route as one departed while conducting combat patrolling operations.” From history, this statement has merit as there is plenty of evidence that shows this is a good way to get your patrol ambushed on the way back in.

    Tactics (IMHO) are something learned from experience, trial and error, the mistakes of others, lessons learned, etc, not merely from imagining something that may occur.

    Just my two cents...and where the dollar stands these days, it may be worth even less than that

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    The perfect self-defense firearm will always be in dispute.
    The perfect self-defense firearm will always be in dispute.
    There is one thing never in dispute: having a gun is the first rule of a gun fight. (This also makes an excellent rule for a knife fight too.)
    +1 on both comments..

    Tactics (IMHO) are something learned from experience, trial and error, the mistakes of others, lessons learned, etc, not merely from imagining something that may occur
    i find that if people do that "imagining that somethingmay occur" will make you paranoid.especially if you do it alot.



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    Tomahawk wrote:
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/perry/perry38.html

    Greg Perry is a regular contributor to Lew Rockwell's libertarian website, and he is consistently pro 2A. So be gentle with him, guys. At least read the whole article before letting him have it!
    . See, I don’t want the bad guys taking me out before they commence the ceremonies of murder, rape, pillage, and plunder. I want to be inconspicuous. I don’t want to wear a sportsman’s/photographer’s vest because those are known as "Shoot Me First Vests" and the bad guys know it. A fanny pack on a man who’s not an obvious tourist is another giveaway that the baddies had better take you out just in case....
    If open carry is a bad tactic why do cops open carry? If open carry people are such targets, why don't criminals shoot every copy they see before committing a crime? Open carry is more likely to deter a crime. For example, if a criminal spots someone openly carrying in a 7/11 are they compelled to shoot the person and then rob the store or move on to anotherof the 80 bazzilion other targets that don't have an armed person in the aisles. Most BG's are going to take that path of least Resistance and move on.

    There are times to open carry and times to carry concealed, I want the option to choose.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    echo6tango wrote:
    Tactics (IMHO) are something learned from experience, trial and error, the mistakes of others, lessons learned, etc, not merely from imagining something that may occur.
    No, you can use inductive reasoning, or "imagining", to build new tactics. A good chessplayer, for instance, has to think ahead by imagining moves that he may have never seen before. "Wargaming" it, if you will.

    Carrying concealed because you are afraid of being "taken out first" does not pass the test of being carefully wargamed, in my opinion.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Carrying concealed because you are afraid of being "taken out first" does not pass the test of being carefully wargamed, in my opinion.
    It doesn't to me either.

    I wrote to the author and asked him to provide some evidence that his "feelings" regarding people being taken out while open carrying were true. I got a really nasty response that questions the IQ of anyone that could possibly disagree with what he considers to be "common sense". He also doesn't see any need to provide evidence on the things he knows are true because he would be drowning his readers in "fluff".



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    les_aker wrote:
    He also doesn't see any need to provide evidence on the things he knows are true because he would be drowning his readers in "fluff".
    As opposed to what he is drowning his readers in now? A nice big warm and steaming pile of _____________.

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    les_aker wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Carrying concealed because you are afraid of being "taken out first" does not pass the test of being carefully wargamed, in my opinion.
    It doesn't to me either.

    I wrote to the author and asked him to provide some evidence that his "feelings" regarding people being taken out while open carrying were true. I got a really nasty response that questions the IQ of anyone that could possibly disagree with what he considers to be "common sense". He also doesn't see any need to provide evidence on the things he knows are true because he would be drowning his readers in "fluff".
    The old saying works in this case. Put up or shut up. If you can't produce the stats to support the facts then it's just speculation.

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    color of law wrote:
    The old saying works in this case. Put up or shut up. If you can't produce the stats to support the facts then it's just speculation.
    That was pretty much my take on it. We hear all the time about how people "feel" that having someone carry a gun makes them nervous. Or that it makes someone uncomfortable to see someone open carrying. It is all too often followed by some number of made up scenarios detailing all the terrible things that can happen and how unsafe it is.

    The thing that always seems to be missing is anything approaching a real life event that has occurred that might provide even a bit of substance to support the "feeling".

    In the long run, it's unlikely that Greg Perry would actually get the clue regardless of how many people emailed him to ask him to provide some substance to support his "feeling" as well.



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    les_aker wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Carrying concealed because you are afraid of being "taken out first" does not pass the test of being carefully wargamed, in my opinion.
    It doesn't to me either.

    I wrote to the author and asked him to provide some evidence that his "feelings" regarding people being taken out while open carrying were true. I got a really nasty response that questions the IQ of anyone that could possibly disagree with what he considers to be "common sense". He also doesn't see any need to provide evidence on the things he knows are true because he would be drowning his readers in "fluff".

    Well, my opinion of Greg Perry just took a nose dive.

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    Another blowhard know it all. I do not see how people can be so stupid, really. These ************* watch too many movies.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Okay, so I emailed the guy myself last night and explained to him about Virginia and its laws, and about our activism, and about our practical reasons for open carrying. I also invited him to come to a VCDL meeting next time he's in DC. I got back a very nice reply. He gave mea link to some website that doesn't convince me, but he was not being snarky.

    So I'm not so ready to hang the guy. I think opinions are based on what you guess and what you hear, and he's never heard the good side of OC.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Okay, so I emailed the guy myself last night and explained to him about Virginia and its laws, and about our activism, and about our practical reasons for open carrying. I also invited him to come to a VCDL meeting next time he's in DC. I got back a very nice reply. He gave mea link to some website that doesn't convince me, but he was not being snarky.

    So I'm not so ready to hang the guy. I think opinions are based on what you guess and what you hear, and he's never heard the good side of OC.
    As a general rule, I think it's inappropriate to post email exchanged with someone, but an exception needs to be made on this topic. I asked him about supporting evidence, and he decided to show his true colors. I'd hate to think that people actually think this guy in some way supports the rights or freedoms of others.

    The subject of my email was "Open Carry".

    He changed the subject of his reply to "Les, I should write more slowly for IQs like yours..."

    This is the exchange I had with him:

    >> You provided no actual evidence that someone who open carrys is in more danger or has actually been injured more often because they were open carrying.



    Les,



    That is pure stupidity. I have brain cells. I don’t need, for example, a survey to know that if I walk into a dark alley at 3:00 AM that I’m in FAR more danger than if I stay in my home.



    And I don’t need a survey to know how attackers attack. They don’t walk into a bank or restaurant without casing the place first, at LEAST they look around a bit before they make their intentions know... Ever watch convenience store robbery videos that are all over the Cop TV shows? The thug walks in meekly looking around to see where and if there is danger and to decide what to do first.. If you have a gun on your waist they are going to DO YOU FIRST.



    They aren’t just going to assume:



    WELL, Les has a gun but that doesn’t necessarily pose more danger to our robbery than any of these other patrons...



    NO, the criminal is smarter than that (and obviously he is far smarter than you). He will mark you as his first shot. That is common sense.



    Les, wouldn’t it be far easier for you to wear a bulls-eye painted on your back than to carry around a holstered gun? That way, when you’re shot, at least your gun won’t fall into the hands of the bad guy.



    Sincerely offered,



    Greg Perry



    P.S. In addition I need not provide evidence for every common sense statement I make or else I’d be drowning my readers in fluff and they’d never learn principles. If you want support... let me re-phrase that, for the support THAT MIGHT SAVE YOUR IGNORANT LIFE SOME DAY, here it is:



    http://www.warriortalknews.com/



    (In case the article is replaced by the time you read it, I copied it below)

    (You can thank me now instead of later for saving you from a death brought on by stupidity.)

    (Yes, Les, I’m being far too blunt, unfair, and UNKIND to you... but this is a life and death situation and it’s dumb statements like the one you made that gets too many good people slaughtered because they actually follow such reasoning as yours... and you should wise up fast also, for your own family’s sake)



    HOW TO TELL WHO IS ARMED - AND HOW TO HIDE IT WHEN YOU ARE [size=

    ]It is important that you have your gun with you all the time. For some of us, it feels strange to not have a gun so keeping one handy is normal. We have seen recently the importance and life-saving reasons to have a gun with you even in places that may frown on the notion, as well as the lefe-ending penalty for not having one recently. In Omaha, there were no armed citizens in place to stop the killer. In Colorado, there was.

    The lesson is this. ONLY YOU CAN INSURE YOUR SAFETY. Carry your gun!! With that, hiding the gun will allow you take it everywhere short of an airplane, or a truly denied area protected by magnetometers and such. Many emails have come in on how to hide the gun, and just as important, how not to be "made".

    Some things I have seen which will help you notice who is armed around you as well as to hide the fact that you are armed...when you don't want anyone to know it . Bad guys are not as easily spotted as the "good guys". I have not based my studies solely on what the good guys do, but rather have studied what the bad guys do as well...and some things they have thought out better than the good guys. [size=

    ]Good guys are usually trained or told how to carry their guns and also tend to conceal along very conventional means. An example would be the predominance of "Traditional Strong Side Holster" carry as promoted by various academies and competition venues around the nation. Guys will carry that way and then seek a way to hide the fact they are carrying. The focus however is to carry IN THAT LOCATION no matter what[size=

    ]Bad guys are not schooled in these "academies of higher skill-at-arms" so nobody told them they were doing it wrong. Subsequently, it is harder to spot them because they are really trying to hide their guns. A secondary concern with bad guys is the ability to divorce themselves from the gun if confronted by the police so a holster is simply an inconvenient hindrance. While I do not agree with this concept, I see why they do it and their need to do so.[size=

    ]Bad guys also tend to have a fashion of sorts, just like cops and CCW people do. The bad guy fashions make it easier to hide a weapon in their baggy clothes and informal dress style. There is always a compromise between concealment and accessibility. The deeper the concealment the harder it is to get into action. If concealment is not a big deal to you, then its not a big deal, but if it is, read on.[size=

    ]Things that give good guys away.[size=

    ]1). Gun fashions - 5.11 means you are either an off duty cop or a civilian carrying a gun. Same goes for gun vests and other things that once served as good concealment. If you want to learn how NOT to dress, stand outside a police locker room at shift change, or peruse the ads in gun magazines.[size=

    ]2). Gun belts. Unless you are using a closed-front cover such as a sweatshirt, belts like the typical police black basket-weave, or the Wilderness belts, proclaim to everyone what you are. If you will wear the belt in a way that is visible, at least get something other than black.[size=

    ]3). Wearing range holsters on the street. I see this a great deal here in NorthernAZ due to certain academic influences in the area. Big leather or Kydex holsters that work great to pass a shooting test or demo a fast El Presidente from open carry to a group of students, look like big leather or kydex holsters under a vest or a shirt, when you try to conceal them. [size=

    ]4). Carrying the gun in an inappropriate place. Because of the material written about gun work in America, some people believe the only proper place to carry a gun is on the 3:00 position on the “strong side”. While this may be the best place at a gun school, it doesn’t necessarily follow to be the best place on the street for accessing or hiding the gun. I had one student who weighed in at 300 pounds. He could not even get his hand on the gun where his original instructors told him to put it![size=

    ]Bad guys carry on the fronts of their bodies. Good guys carry on the back of their bodies. We might conduct a study about why this is, but I have seen it too many times to dismiss as coincidental. The best place for accessibility, concealment, and protection is Appendix Inside Waistband Carry. This is also banned from use at most gun schools (ours a notable exception), police academies, and in competitive circles. Hmmm.[size=

    ]5). Carrying an inappropriate sized gun. You know the folks that advocate the everyone carry the XYZ Special Ninja Service pistol, don’t you? Well some people can’t. Period. A Keltec in the pocket, totally unseen and unnoticed, but ready, is worth twenty CQB Navy Seal SOCOM Specials left behind in the gun safe.[size=

    ]6). Fanny packs. Specially big oversized black ones that say Glock, or whatever. Everyone…even the village idiot, knows what is in there so don’t try to convince yourself that you are hiding anything. You may be "legally concealed" but not really concealed. I wear one of these when I am running, but otherwise, I do not. Let me put it this way…a 2” 38 revolver in your pocket is worth ten times more than your 1911 or Glock in a fanny pack.[size=

    ]7). Combination of the above – combine a black fanny pack with a basket weave black belt, and a Second Amendment Foundation Hat and someone would have to unconscious or blind to not think you were armed.[size=

    ]8). Self consciousness. People who are carrying for the first time…or uncomfortable with carrying tend to be very gun sensitive. They constantly check and adjust and walk with a strange gait, constantly looking for someone looking at them. That is noticeable to those who are looking.

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    Tactical? Isn't open carry more tactical than concealed? I've never been in a 'real' warzone but from what I see in Iraq all the soldiers carry openly, not just rifles either. Maybe they didn't get the memo.

    Which is more tactical? Carrying openly and detering a robbery without having to draw? Or carrying concealed and having someone try to rob you because they think you're an easy (unarmed) target andthen having to draw through your clothes (you have to reach the gun before you can pull it out) possibly with a weapon pointed at you?

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    les_aker wrote:
    (per Greg Perry) ...If you have a gun on your waist they are going to DO YOU FIRST...
    Since he's speculating I will do the same... - no, they are not going to "do" you at all, they're gonna wait until the coast is clear, or seek a better place to do their "business".

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    BB62 wrote:
    les_aker wrote:
    (per Greg Perry) ...If you have a gun on your waist they are going to DO YOU FIRST...
    Since he's speculating I will do the same... - no, they are not going to "do" you at all, they're gonna wait until the coast is clear, or seek a better place to do their "business".
    Or they're not going to notice your gun. Or they're going to plan to shoot you, but because you have a good sense of situational awareness and can draw quickly (because you don't have to rifle through you clothing to access your gun), you can get off a shot before he does. Instead of sitting and watching the violent incident unwind while trying to find an opportunity to delve into your "deep concealment" without drawing attention to yourself, only to get shot when you get a little too animated while accessing your gun.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    There is no reasoning with an idiot of his magnitude. Criminals do not want a gun fight, they want their 43 dollars from the 7-11 and to go get their crack. Too much tv for that guy.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    There is no reasoning with an idiot of his magnitude. Criminals do not want a gun fight, they want their 43 dollars from the 7-11 and to go get their crack. Too much tv for that guy.
    Yup. And if they do want to kill you, they're not going to wait until you get your gun out of concealment.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    VAopencarry wrote:
    There is no reasoning with an idiot of his magnitude.* Criminals do not want a gun fight, they want their 43 dollars from the 7-11 and to go get their crack.* Too much tv for that guy.
    Yup. And if they do want to kill you, they're not going to wait until you get your gun out of concealment.
    I agree with this completely. If they ARE there for the killing, then they may kill me first, but guess who's next? Everyone else.

    Petty criminals just want the quick cash, and carry a gun as a bluff.

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    Venator wrote:
    If open carry is a bad tactic why do cops open carry? If open carry people are such targets, why don't criminals shoot every copy they see before committing a crime?
    While I disagree with Greg Perry's unsupported conclusion, I have to kindly take issue with your counter-argument.

    Wearing a LEO uniform is a target/detterent enough. If someone is determined to commit a crime, they will pop the cop first - gun visible or not. If they're not determined, I doubt they would bother checking if the cop is OCing before being deterred.

    It all comes down to two things (in my mind): element of surprise and response time (draw speed). Each person must weigh the pros and cons and decide OC vs CC for themselves and for each situation they're going into.
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    radwood wrote:
    I agree with this completely. If they ARE there for the killing, then they may kill me first, but guess who's next? Everyone else.

    Petty criminals just want the quick cash, and carry a gun as a bluff.
    There appear to be a great many "real life" things that Greg Perry just doesn't get about open carry.

    Unfortunately, it looks like something as simple as getting a few emails from people that do get it isn't likely to change his mind. Which means that he's going to continue to write articles and be viewed by some people as an authority on the subject even though he's got it completely wrong, a la Jim Zumbo.



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    les_aker wrote:
    a la Jim Zumbo.

    Ah, I was waiting for someone to drop the Z-word! Sadly, from the answer he gave you it may be warranted.

    I hate to pick on someone who preaches the 2A like this guy does, but even people on "our side" have prejudices. And I dislike know-it-alls, which the gun-owner world is rife with. Walk into almost any gunshop or visit any gun website, including this one, and you can get a free earful of BS from dealers, patrons, and internet commandos, all of think their version of "common sense" needs no facts to back it up and should be taken at face value.

    Zumbo indeed.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Ah, I was waiting for someone to drop the Z-word! Sadly, from the answer he gave you it may be warranted.

    He sure got defensive when I asked him if he had any evidence to support his opinion. In a way, he sounded a lot like the people that were protesting the VCDL Bloomberg Gun Giveaway last summer.

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    Venator wrote:
    If open carry is a bad tactic why do cops open carry?
    Cops in uniform open carry. Plain clothes cops do not. My personal opinion I can draw from my hip holster a lot faster than my shoulder rig and it feels more natural. But we keep saying show us evidence that BG would "mark" someone in OC first....well there really isn't that much OC going on to get a basis. However I do know they always take the bank guard first, maybe they don't kill but they nuetralize.



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