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Thread: Places that I can OC but not CC?

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    There was some discussion of this in the Michigan thread titled, "No OC stories from Michigan," but it seemed unsettled, and I feel this is an important issue that needs to be clarified. I am well aware of the "Pistol Free Zone's" listed on MSP's website, and on the back of my CPL license (but these seem to be directed towards CC). Some of the reading I have done online and throughout this forum implies that the CPL holders may opencarry pistol free zones, which doesn't make much sense.

    So, are there area's in which CC is permitted that OC is not, or vice versa?

    Venator seems to have a good grasp on this issue, hopefully you will contribute

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    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty. Sec. 234d.


    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------




    That's the law in the state of MI. As you can see it doesn't apply to you because you have a CPL.

    The only places you CAN'T carry, open or concealed, are the ones on the back of your blue card. Well... and the Federal places.

    Now... some people say that the places that are restricted for concealed carry are ONLY for concealed carry. That would mean that you could carry openlly in a hospital or any of the other places listed.

    I am not ready to test that interpretation yet but it sure looks like that's how the law is written.

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    Thanks for posting that, this is the law that is causing me so much confusion. It doesn’t prohibit specifically open or concealed carry, just possession of a firearm. But, as seen in section (c), this law does not apply to me, or any other CPL holder; right? So, this law says I CAN carry in a depository financial institution, church, court, theatre, sports arena, day care center, hospital, or bar. But, on the back of my blue card it prohibits carrying concealed [/i]carry on all of the aforementioned, as well as a school, casino and college dorm and classroom.

    Now, on the MSP’s concealed carry FAQ it says,

    2. Are there any places where I may not carry a concealed pistol?

    MCL 28.425o Anyone licensed to carry a concealed[/b] pistol from Michigan or another state shall not carry a concealed[/b] pistol in any of the pistol free zones. For a complete list, please see: Pistol Free Areas (these are the exact same as listed on the back of the blue card).



    "Pistol free area's" are slightly different from the areas listed as 'firearm prohibited' 750.234d, but I think that is irrelevant to the topic.



    Here is what appears to be the law (for non-LEO...etc):

    • Concealed Carry is prohibited in all of the following for anyone:Church, Court, Theatre, Sports Arena, Day Care,Hospital, Casino, College Dorm or Class (not prohibited on campus, but thats another issue, for another day), Bar, and schools. [per MCL 28.425o]
    • Open carry/any carryis prohibited in the following areas, for citizens withoutCPL: Church, Court, Theatre, Sports Arena, Day Care,Hospital or Bar. [per 750.234d]
    • Open carry is not prohibited for CPL holders in the following areas: Church, Court, Theatre, Sports Arena, Day Care,Bar or Hospital. (not sure about Casino, College Dorm or Class, as CPL holders are not listed as being exempt from possessing a firearm in these areas.)

      Does this seem to be accurate? Perhaps we can find a member of http://www.mcrgo.orgwho can use their 'ask a lawyer' function. Why having a CPL would give me special open carry priveldges is beyond me, thats just the way it appears.

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    The way I read it, carry in a bank is prohibited without a CPL and just fine if you have one. Same way with in a theater.
    [*]"Open carry is not prohibited for CPL holders in the following areas: Church, Court, Theater, Sports Arena, Day Care,Bar or Hospital. (not sure about Casino, College Dorm or Class, as CPL holders are not listed as being exempt from possessing a firearm in these areas.)

    Does this seem to be accurate? Perhaps we can find a member of http://www.mcrgo.orgwho can use their 'ask a lawyer' function. Why having a CPL would give me special open carry privileges is beyond me, thats just the way it appears. "
    Seems about right to me.

    BTW... You can go to the Legal section of mcrgo and ask for yourself. Takes no more to register there then it did here.





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    I did try yesterday, and if I remember correctly there was a $30.00 fee to become a member. I will try again tomorrow.

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    You don't have to be a "Member"

    This is from the FAQ at MCRGO............






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    I am usually pretty good at navigating websites, but am having a hard time here. I keep coming accross the box below, which leads me tothis website: http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_join.asp.

    Please providethe URL to free registration if you've got it... Thanks, -Kevin



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    I emailed the MSP a few days back, and they(he) responded today. His response offered no new information, so I replied citing the statutes above. I will let you all know what I hear back.

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    I have not heard back from the MSP, but found the AG opinion that seems to be the answer to all my problems. I suppose it would be referred to as AG opinion #10188. The link is below. It states, "A uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized "peace officer" or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code.

    [size=http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10188.htm]



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    kmcdowel wrote:
    I have not heard back from the MSP, but found the AG opinion that seems to be the answer to all my problems. I suppose it would be referred to as AG opinion #10188. The link is below. It states, "A uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized "peace officer" or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code.

    [size=http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10188.htm]

    [size=]

    [size=So, there you have it. I, as a CPL holder, can carry openly in gun-free zones]

    [size=]

    [size=:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate]

    [size=]
    The way I read that, it is talking ONLY about a uniformed reserve police officer while on duty.

  11. #11
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    kmcdowel wrote:
    AG opinion #10188. The link is below. It states, "A uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized "peace officer" or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code.


    So, there you have it. I, as a CPL holder, can carry openly in gun-free zones]
    Of course he is refering to an LEO only. "...if the OFFICER is...." He is not refereing to the general public. You could try it though and let us know how it works out.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Maybe I got all excited and used the banana happy dance too soon... Still waiting on 2nd reply from the MSP

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    It seems to me that a lot of the AG opinions are from Pre CPL laws, and haven't been revised. Or the ones that have been revised still have other laws that are in conflict with each other, then causing a i see it one way and the law see's it the other way?AKA loophole good or bad, i guess it depends on which side looking at it from

    But again thats just my opinion

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    Leader wrote:
    kmcdowel wrote:
    I have not heard back from the MSP, but found the AG opinion that seems to be the answer to all my problems. I suppose it would be referred to as AG opinion #10188. The link is below. It states, "A uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized "peace officer" or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code.

    [size=http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10188.htm]

    [size=]

    [size=So, there you have it. I, as a CPL holder, can carry openly in gun-free zones]

    [size=]

    [size=:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate]

    [size=]
    The way I read that, it is talking ONLY about a uniformed reserve police officer while on duty.

    See AG Opinion on the Michigan Page pertaining to schools (AG Opinion 7113).

    It expands on this issue a bit more.

    7113

    I agree with Leader.However, keeping in mind the context, if you are not a "Peace Officer" you area citizen-uniform or not. IMHO

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    As I understand it, YES you can OPEN carry in those places listed as long as you have a CPL.

    If there is NO law prohibiting an action, it's not illegal.

    I guess I need to grow some ***** and try it out.



    But it would be nice to get an opinion from Mike Cox on this question.


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    dougwg wrote:
    As I understand it, YES you can OPEN carry in those places listed as long as you have a CPL.

    If there is NO law prohibiting an action, it's not illegal.

    I guess I need to grow some ***** and try it out.



    But it would be nice to get an opinion from Mike Cox on this question.
    I wrote this awhile back in the no open carry stories in Michigan thread. Some have argued that a CPL exempts you and they may be right, but I don't see themtrying out their interpretation of the law by open carrying in these areas. I still stand by my understanding of the intent of the original law.
    [line]
    There has been some discussion on whether a Michigan CPL holder can carry openly in areas off limits to open carry by non-permit holders. A history lesson is needed. The places off limits to open-carry were established in 1933. Below is the citation of this act. The verbiage that is getting everyone excited is this exemption: (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    On the surface it would appear that this allows CPL holders the right to open carry in these areas, but the intent of this law was to allow the “old” CPL holder, that is, those issued before 2001 to carry CONCEALED in these areas, because a Sheriff could put any restrictions they wanted on a CPL before that date.Often a Sheriff would issue CPL’s that were restricted to hunting/target shooting only. But he could also place no restriction on the CPL (Lucky few) and these people were allowed to carry concealed anywhere [/b]in the state (Federal restrictions applied), including those places prohibited to open carry, (but concealed). In order to clarify this allowance the above exemption was added (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon. [/b]It is really outdated since 2001 and should be addressed by the legislature. This line was not intended to let recent (since 2001) CPL holders to openly carry in these places. Since 2001 places off-limits to concealed carry cover some of the places off-limits to open carry, in fact these restrictions were a compromise to allow the new law to pass. Since 2001 lawmakers are trying to reduce the number of places off-limits to concealed carry and are slowly working towards that end.

    Now could some argue this point? Yes, but I’m guessing they would lose. I bet if you asked any LEO or DA they would arrest/prosecute you for doing this. I know I would want to get this point cleaned up before I would openly carry in a hospital based on my CPL.



    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.[/b] Sec. 234d.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (2)
    This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.[/b] [/b]




    [/b]Premises on Which Carrying Concealed Weapon Prohibited can be found in
    MCL 28.425o or on the Michigan State Police
    Web Site.

    Beginning July 1, 2001, individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state will be prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol in the following areas:

    1. *Schools or school property but may carry in the while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian. (Act 719 allows carry in parking lots. See below)

    2. Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

    3. Sports arena or stadium

    4. A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises

    5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons

    6. An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

    7. A hospital

    8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university

    9. A Casino

    10. Premises does not include parking areas of the above places
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  17. #17
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    SNIP
    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.[/b] Sec. 234d.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (2)
    This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.[/b] [/b]




    [/b]Premises on Which Carrying Concealed Weapon Prohibited can be found in
    MCL 28.425o or on the Michigan State Police
    Web Site.

    Beginning July 1, 2001, individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state will be prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol in the following areas:

    1. *Schools or school property but may carry in the while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian. (Act 719 allows carry in parking lots. See below)

    2. Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

    3. Sports arena or stadium

    4. A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises

    5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons

    6. An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

    7. A hospital

    8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university

    9. A Casino

    10. Premises does not include parking areas of the above places
    There has been some controversy, carrying openly in Hospitalsdiscussed previously on this forum and on the late PackingDotOrg. Some agreed OC is OK, some did not.

    I'm not going to be the "Test Case" for 750.234d, yes it's still in the books, but....

    What about CPL holders who were exempted from the CPZ's, before July 1, 2001, does the exemption automatically transfer when renewing?

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    Venator wrote:
    I wrote this awhile back in the no open carry stories in Michigan thread. ...snip
    I must be dumb.... I'm no engrish magor butt....

    It seems VERY clear to me, you can't go here unless you have one of these and do this.

    Maybe you could break it down a bit so I can understand?

    Like I said, we need an AG opinion on this.



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    dougwg wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    I wrote this awhile back in the no open carry stories in Michigan thread. ...snip
    I must be dumb.... I'm no engrish magor butt....

    It seems VERY clear to me, you can't go here unless you have one of these and do this.

    Maybe you could break it down a bit so I can understand?

    Like I said, we need an AG opinion on this.

    And as many of us have said if you believe you are right go and carry inthese areas and let us know how it goes. A defense may be that the law is void do to vagueness. But you will still have some attorney costs, etc...
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  20. #20
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    Please don't tell me to go play in traffic.

    We're all on the same side you know.

    What are your thoughts about an AG opinion?



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    ....not only are they vague, they simplydo not prohibit OC by CPL holders in those areas. I guess you could suit for a wrongful arrest and your lawyer fees if you won the case. I also will not be testing it any time soon.

    Stillllll waiting on a reply from MSP on this. I emailed on them on the 7th. The first email I sent them (12/29)asked simply where I was restricted form OC, and where I was restricted from CC. He (Sgt. Deasy) replied, "As a CPL holder, the pistol free zones are the same for you regardless of how you are carrying your pistol. Those areas can be found in the attached statute." The statute that he attached was 28.425o, which, as we know, explicitly prohibits concealed carry,and makes no mention of open carry.

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    BTW...how does one go about obtaining an AG opinion?

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    kmcdowel wrote:
    BTW...how does one go about obtaining an AG opinion?
    In my experience AG opinions are asked by some public official, e.g., a legislator on behalf of a constituent or by law enforcement (chief, Sheriff), in regards to a question of law.There may be other ways I'm not aware of.

    As an aside I did talked to my legislator's (Clinton Co.) officeabout an AG opinion on this subjectand was told that they are aware of theconfusion about this law and it's conflict with current law, he stated that they are not eager to open this can of worms, and are trying to get restrictions removed on CC which has a more influential base. He alsosaid that they have other things to do at the moment and this was a low priority.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    He alsosaid that they have other things to do at the moment and this was a low priority.

    Perhaps us CPL holding Michiganians should get together and have an OC tour of Banks, Daycares, College's, Casino's....

    I bet this would make it a priority


    And, when we all get arrested we can divide up the lawyer bill.

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    kmcdowel wrote:
    He alsosaid that they have other things to do at the moment and this was a low priority.

    Perhaps us CPL holding Michiganians should get together and have an OC tour of Banks, Daycares, College's, Casino's....

    I bet this would make it a priority


    And, when we all get arrested we can divide up the lawyer bill.
    See my post on why CPL holders don't like open carry. The fear is that a more restrictive law could be passed outlawing open and or concealed carry and they don't want that to take that chance.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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