Fear of being disarmed while OC

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I just wanted to get this out to see if any of you have the same concerns I do regarding potential disarm by a BG. Note * this is heavily dependant on the type of holster being used but thought I would ask how big a percentage will be 'extra aware' of people around them while OC'ing.

I told a buddy of mine that I could trust with my life that over the course of a week out with him that I was going to keep my gun unchambered and I wanted him to find a time during that week that we were out, find an opportunity and place his hand on the top of my pistol. It was not a very good test considering I was hyper focused on him most of the time but in the end he was able to place his hand on the top of my pistol twice. In these cases once was at a coffee shop while I was organizing my laptop, paper, etc. to go in my backpack....the other at my home...which I don't count because, its my home and I am not extra cautious of strangers *duh* he thought he got a second one off, but we will forget that...

The first instance was quite on though...

Note to all * I told him to make sure when he was attempting these touch-n-go actions that he didn't do it in from of a family of church-goers that would see this as a alarming scenario, thinking he was truly going to disarm me and shoot up the joint, it was very controlled.**

So, just that fact that he could do this one time led me to believe that over a longer time of OD'ing it might be possible to lose your attention for a very brief second in enough time to be disarmed in public. I know there are a lot of inside the waistband holsters that do not off much more then a Velcro strap, if that.

What are your thoughts on the possibility of being disarmed?

What precautions are taken, have it be proximity to others, body position, mannerisms while you are focused on other things, to help ensure you are kept safe and keeping others safe from a possible BG disarm?

Thanks for all the input !

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Outside of my office or bedroom and especially around other people my situational awareness is usually pretty good. This is mostly just because I don't like other people close around me. I've always been like that, just funny that way.

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I can see how OC'ing over a long period of time can deteriate your situational awareness, so you just kind of have to find a way to always be on guard, sure it sounds easy but people tend to lose focus easily...

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Putting your hand on the pistol is one thing, but removing it from a holster (even a non-retention model) is quite another. I made a post not too long ago about having my wife and a friend try to remove my gun (unloaded, of course) from its holster while I was wearing it. It's a lot harder than it looks.

Let us also not forget that if someone is really inclined to take your pistol and start killing people, it would be a lot easier to club you over the head and do so while you are unconscious. So, rather than worrying about if someone can place their hand on your pistol you might consider whether you are at risk of assault that would render you helpless to use your weapon.

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Cue-Ball wrote:

Putting your hand on the pistol is one thing, but removing it from a holster (even a non-retention model) is quite another. I made a post not too long ago about having my wife and a friend try to remove my gun (unloaded, of course) from its holster while I was wearing it. It's a lot harder than it looks.

Let us also not forget that if someone is really inclined to take your pistol and start killing people, it would be a lot easier to club you over the head and do so while you are unconscious. So, rather than worrying about if someone can place their hand on your pistol you might consider whether you are at risk of assault that would render you helpless to use your weapon.

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That is a very good point, thank you. I will also be looking into holstered defense of disarm. It seems like people put a lot of trust in the retention of their holster... I saw this article, I might try it out:

http://www.policeone.com/police-products/duty-gear/holsters/articles/116519/

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Scilence, I would highly recommend taking a look at the Blackhawk SERPA CQC holster line. It's what I use as a civilian and I believe it would stand up to those tests outlined in the article. As I don't have a lot of cash lying around nor a simu-gun, I can't do those tests on my holster, but through usage, I trust the quality of the holster in all the situations referenced.

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.scilence wrote:

I just wanted to get this out to see if any of you have the same concerns I do regarding potential disarm by a BG. Note * this is heavily dependant on the type of holster being used but thought I would ask how big a percentage will be 'extra aware' of people around them while OC'ing.

I told a buddy of mine that I could trust with my life that over the course of a week out with him that I was going to keep my gun unchambered and I wanted him to find a time during that week that we were out, find an opportunity and place his hand on the top of my pistol. It was not a very good test considering I was hyper focused on him most of the time but in the end he was able to place his hand on the top of my pistol twice. In these cases once was at a coffee shop while I was organizing my laptop, paper, etc. to go in my backpack....the other at my home...which I don't count because, its my home and I am not extra cautious of strangers *duh* he thought he got a second one off, but we will forget that...

The first instance was quite on though...

Note to all * I told him to make sure when he was attempting these touch-n-go actions that he didn't do it in from of a family of church-goers that would see this as a alarming scenario, thinking he was truly going to disarm me and shoot up the joint, it was very controlled.**

So, just that fact that he could do this one time led me to believe that over a longer time of OD'ing it might be possible to lose your attention for a very brief second in enough time to be disarmed in public. I know there are a lot of inside the waistband holsters that do not off much more then a Velcro strap, if that.

What are your thoughts on the possibility of being disarmed?

What precautions are taken, have it be proximity to others, body position, mannerisms while you are focused on other things, to help ensure you are kept safe and keeping others safe from a possible BG disarm?

Thanks for all the input !

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I think nothing short of a well planned "ambush" is the only scenario I can swallow ... armed or not ... Stay ready = you don't have to get ready.

I seriously doubt a BG would try to purse snatch a gun unless if you're in some alley 3:00am ...

At least Washington is a No retreat / Stand your ground State so if BG wants to get that close enough to try to steal my gun it's at his own risk.

Open carries are soO rarely seen in public the BG would probly target a Cop.

This is why we carry in the first place ... *If* some BG did snatch my gun out of my holster I can draw my BUG (CC) quicker than my OC holster :-}

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scilence wrote:

SNIP It was not a very good test considering I was hyper focused on him most of the time but in the end he was able to place his hand on the top of my pistol twice.

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I wouldn't sweat it too much. You said yourself you were hyperfocused. This means you can be alert in public.

You would not allow someone unknown to you to remain in physicalproximity to youfor the duration your friend waswhile seeking his opportunity.

Just remain alert to who is near you. When I'm in public, no male approaches or stands behind me that I don't turnmy off-gun side towards him. Females don't fare much better. It probably looks a little odd sometimes. I'm the only guy in line standing sideways.

Also, you can use the trick some police do and press your elbow against the gun, giving you a little bit of warning if somebody does try to monkey with it.

And get a decent holster with some retention capability.

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While the likelyhood of being disarmed is slight, if we go by raw percentages, don't even bother to carry a gun, because the likelyhood of being victimized is also slight. Consequently, we train and practice to be able to use the gun competently in the event we ever need it, and we also should train to counter a disarm attack if that should ever occur.

Placing a gun on your hip in open view is placing yourselves in a tactical situation similar to a police officer. And, while the armed citizen typically doesn't volunteer for the fight, there are glaring examples where this does in fact occur. (Tacoma mall and the Nebraska Church shootings come to mind). But also, the fact that the armed citizen typically doesn't wear body armor, nor have instant communications to summon back-up offsets the consideration that they typcially don't volunteer for the fight.

Having said all that, the discipline of weapons retention has three components. One is situational awareness, as has been mentioned already. Two, is the type of holster used. It is my experience in teaching this discipline for about 18 years now, is that ANY holster that can be reasonably used for self-defense can be defeated reasonably easily. In addition, we have seen many kydex and plastic holsters break during weapons retention classes. I am not saying one should not use one, but just don't rely upon it to work as advertised. The third component of an effective plan to counter a disarm attempt is training. If you do not know how to effectively counter the attack, then it is like siting on a three legged stool, with one of the legs missing.

That's the bad news. The good news is that there are people in the puget sound area who teach this discipline to private citizens,The Firearms Academy ofSeattle being one of these organizations, and Insights the other. (There may be more, but I am not aware of them).

I believe any armed citizen needs to have weapons retention and disarming training, whetherthey carry openly or concealed, with it being higher on the priority list for those who carry openly. Along with rights, comes responsibility.While perhaps not a legal responsibility, it is certainly a moral one to take reasonable steps to seethat you are not disarmed, andyour gun used to kill innocent people, (like you and perhaps your family).

And, as aslightcommercial advertisement, FASis now teaching it'sHandgun Retention and Disarming course at Norpoint Shootingand Tactical Training Center in Arlington, along with it's locationnear Chehalis. Here is the link.

http://www.firearmsacademy.com/retntion.htm

Marty Hayes, President

The Firearms Academy of Seattle, Inc.

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Serpa Level 3 retention... Try getting that out without being unconscious. Of course, if someone was going to attempt to try for your gun, they would have to be desperate, as you might get to it first, or, with a little training, you could get the gun back. You guys should check out Krav Maga if your interested in some REAL self defense. Its Iraeli Army martial arts, but it is all about how to keep yourself safe. Theres some good videos on youtube out there. Good gun defense.

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Nitrox:

Unless a pre-planned response to a disarm attack has been conditioned for the defender, unconsciousness might be a very real result of the attack. The last case I worked on as an expert witness, (last summer) regarding an attempt to disarm an officer, resulted in the gun coming out of the level three holster, and a long protracted physical battle. (The officer almost lost the whole shebang).

I agree Krav Maga is an excellent martial art to study, and would recommend it highly to anyone who really wanted to excell in self-defense. In fact, my understanding of the weapon retention and disarming techiniques of Krav Maga closely parallel those which we teach, which are derived from Judo, Aikido and Silat, (with a little dose of Gun Fu tossed in!)

Absent enrolling in a Krav Maga dojo, I believe a narrowly focussed handgun retention and disarming course is a viable alternative.

Marty

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Marty Hayes wrote:

And, as aslightcommercial advertisement, FASis now teaching it'sHandgun Retention and Disarming course at Norpoint Shootingand Tactical Training Center in Arlington, along with it's locationnear Chehalis. Here is the link.

http://www.firearmsacademy.com/retntion.htm

Marty Hayes, President

The Firearms Academy of Seattle, Inc.

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How shameless, Marty. Seriously though, I've been meaning to come take a few classes down there but it just seems that you're so far away! I am definitely going to just have to take some time off from work and take a class or two.

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Marty, Looking at the thread I started yesterday I see 41 views and no comments about local training/competiton. I am taking vacation time this year to come down and take two courses but in your entire schedule there is only one other class I can get to without taking more vacation time. Any chance you could split the retention class into two 3 hr. sessions and teach it on week nights at Norpoint? Looking at your course descriptions I think "Fundamentals of Home defense" and "Concealed Carry 101" might also work as a split class.

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Misguided Child wrote:

Marty, Looking at the thread I started yesterday I see 41 views and no comments about local training/competiton. I am taking vacation time this year to come down and take two courses but in your entire schedule there is only one other class I can get to without taking more vacation time. Any chance you could split the retention class into two 3 hr. sessions and teach it on week nights at Norpoint? Looking at your course descriptions I think "Fundamentals of Home defense" and "Concealed Carry 101" might also work as a split class.

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Evening classes at Norpoint are a definate possibility. Likely not for this year, but perhaps next. We tend to schedule things long range. I saw where you were coming down, look forward to seeing you here.

Marty

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Would a 'natural reaction' to an attempted disarming be an elbow to the head?

If someone is reaching down, they're going to be slightly hunched (if they're average height), which would allow a solid strike with the elbow SOMEWHERE where it hurts, lol.

EDIT:

I had a security guard remove a county issued portable from my belt (I used to be a FF), He was promptly caught with an elbow to the head, and slammed against the wall with an arm twisted behind the back. All natural reaction, I wasn't trained in 'radio retention' lol...

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Actually I have been running through some drills with a couple friends on mine, they are of varying hieght and weight to me so understand what needs to change in each attempted disarm. The funny part is that in almost any circumstance of defending a disarm from behind I could easily use my body leverage and thier hand on my pistol to break their arm.

From the front a person attempting to disarm me is putting their body in a posture for advancing a practical hip toss.

These are extreme circumstances as well...normally I dont think I would be as extravegant...I would just break a hand and get to distance in normal situations...