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Open Carry in an Apt Building

LEO 229

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worrbaron wrote:
You pay taxes and thestate owns the roadways paid for by your tax dollars. This does not give you any permission to drive your car on the roadway just because you pay taxes. You pay an additionalfee byregistering your car and this allows the car to be driven on the roadway

Actually the state has nolegal grounds to restrict a person's lawful traveling.
You mean in gereral and not using an automobile on a state road.....right?
 

sjhipple

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LEO 229 wrote:
worrbaron wrote:
You pay taxes and thestate owns the roadways paid for by your tax dollars. This does not give you any permission to drive your car on the roadway just because you pay taxes. You pay an additionalfee byregistering your car and this allows the car to be driven on the roadway

Actually the state has nolegal grounds to restrict a person's lawful traveling.
You mean in gereral and not using an automobile on a state road.....right?
Oh no...here we go.
 

stryth

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-C4- wrote:
Yesterday afternoon I saw a guy coming out of the stairwell OCing in my Apt building. This was the first time I have actually seen someone OCing in Arlington, but this did get me thinking. Technically an Apt building is private property. So how does the law handle me as a renter open carrying? E.g. can the Apt building have me evicted etc? Can the apartment building prevent me from owning firearms?

IANAL, but please see VA 55-248.9 "Prohibited provisions in rental agreements."

A. A rental agreement shall not contain provisions that the tenant:
1. Agrees to waive or forego rights or remedies under this chapter;
... 6. Agrees as a condition of tenancy in public housing to a prohibition or restriction of any lawful possession of a firearm within individual dwelling units unless required by federal law or regulation; or
...

B. A provision prohibited by subsection A included in a rental agreement is unenforceable. If a landlord brings an action to enforce any of the prohibited provisions, the tenant may recover actual damages sustained by him and reasonable attorney's fees.


Ok, so reading that it doesn't appear to answer what remedies they have with respect to your OC/CC outside of a dwelling unit, but I think that makes it quite clear that provisions which prohibit lawful firearm posession in a dwelling unit are unenforcable. Building on that I think you could state that a prohibition on posessing a firearm in common access areas prevents ingress and egress with firearms which is an effective prohibition or restriction on the lawful possession of a firearm and therefore unenforcable.
 

hsmith

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stryth wrote:
IANAL, but please see VA 55-248.9 "Prohibited provisions in rental agreements."

A. A rental agreement shall not contain provisions that the tenant:
1. Agrees to waive or forego rights or remedies under this chapter;
... 6. Agrees as a condition of tenancy in public housing to a prohibition or restriction of any lawful possession of a firearm within individual dwelling units unless required by federal law or regulation; or
...

B. A provision prohibited by subsection A included in a rental agreement is unenforceable. If a landlord brings an action to enforce any of the prohibited provisions, the tenant may recover actual damages sustained by him and reasonable attorney's fees.


Ok, so reading that it doesn't appear to answer what remedies they have with respect to your OC/CC outside of a dwelling unit, but I think that makes it quite clear that provisions which prohibit lawful firearm posession in a dwelling unit are unenforcable. Building on that I think you could state that a prohibition on posessing a firearm in common access areas prevents ingress and egress with firearms which is an effective prohibition or restriction on the lawful possession of a firearm and therefore unenforcable.
Nice find!
 

-C4-

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jack wrote:
Virginia law specificly prohibits landlords from restricting tenents from own or carry firearms.


Do you have the actual code?
 

-C4-

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hsmith wrote:
-C4- wrote:
jack wrote:
Virginia law specificly prohibits landlords from restricting tenents from own or carry firearms.


Do you have the actual code?
Five posts up

That only refers to owning and not carry. I was looking for the code pertaining to carry.
 

sjhipple

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hsmith wrote:
Carrying is possession, is it not? :)

I guess it would get mucky with "dweling unit"
I think "dwelling unit" is pretty straight forward, but unless the lease specifically bars carrying in the common areas, you're in the clear.
 

LEO 229

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jack wrote:
Virginia law specificly prohibits landlords from restricting tenents from own or carry firearms.
Not exactly true....

It says... "within individual dwelling"

So this means you can own and carryfirearm in the dwelling you rent....this does not grant you any permission to carrya gun on the property.
 

skidmark

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LEO 229 wrote:
jack wrote:
Virginia law specificly prohibits landlords from restricting tenents from own or carry firearms.
Not exactly true....

It says... "within individual dwelling"

So this means you can own and carryfirearm in the dwelling you rent....this does not grant you any permission to carrya gun on the property.

Your lease is NOT just for the dwelling unit, but also for the "use and enjoyment" of all the common areas of the apartment complex - be it a single unit attached to the landlord's home or a thousand-unit high-rise. As there is no law prohibitting OC on private property, and your lease allows you the "use and enjoyment" of the common areas of the apartment complex's property, there is no need for you to be granted any "permission" to OC on the apartment property.

stay safe.

skidmark
 

LEO 229

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skidmark wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
jack wrote:
Virginia law specificly prohibits landlords from restricting tenents from own or carry firearms.
Not exactly true....

It says... "within individual dwelling"

So this means you can own and carryfirearm in the dwelling you rent....this does not grant you any permission to carrya gun on the property.
Your lease is NOT just for the dwelling unit, but also for the "use and enjoyment" of all the common areas of the apartment complex - be it a single unit attached to the landlord's home or a thousand-unit high-rise. As there is no law prohibitting OC on private property, and your lease allows you the "use and enjoyment" of the common areas of the apartment complex's property, there is no need for you to be granted any "permission" to OC on the apartment property.

stay safe.

skidmark
Incorrect, Sir... You are renting a space and not the entire property. You have full rights to the dwelling you have rented and this is why there is a law that allows you to have a gun there.

You will notice that the law prohibits anything in the lease to prevent a renter from having a firearm"within individual dwelling" and doesnotsay anythingabouta renters right outside the dwelling.

The property owner may allow you to use the pool or clubhouse... but they can easily revoke that at any time unless you are paying into it separately through some type of membership fee.

They couldprohibit openly displayed weapons on the common ground in the lease. You have NO RIGHTS to carry a firearm on the property of another without their permission. Once you rent a space... you have control over only that space.

Here is a part of the Virginia code that clearly identifies that a CC permit gives you no authority to possess a gun on property were prohibited by the owner.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.
 

stryth

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LEO 229 wrote:
Incorrect, Sir... You are renting a space and not the entire property. You have full rights to the dwelling you have rented and this is why there is a law that allows you to have a gun there.

You will notice that the law prohibits anything in the lease to prevent a renter from having a firearm"within individual dwelling" and doesnotsay anythingabouta renters right outside the dwelling.

The property owner may allow you to use the pool or clubhouse... but they can easily revoke that at any time unless you are paying into it separately through some type of membership fee.

They couldprohibit openly displayed weapons on the common ground in the lease. You have NO RIGHTS to carry a firearm on the property of another without their permission. Once you rent a space... you have control over only that space.

Here is a part of the Virginia code that clearly identifies that a CC permit gives you no authority to possess a gun on property were prohibited by the owner.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.

I'd assume this is somewhere that case law would be critical, but I'd be pretty confident in a few details. If a landlord was able to prevent a tenant from entering a common area (like a hallway in an apartment) it would make it impossible to come or go from your rented apartment, and a landlord could prevent you from living there. Can we agree that a level of access is a given? Can we agree then that a landlord cannot prevent you from transporting arms in common areas for the purpose of ingress and egress?
 

stryth

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LEO 229 wrote:
Your lease is NOT just for the dwelling unit, but also for the "use and enjoyment" of all the common areas of the apartment complex - be it a single unit attached to the landlord's home or a thousand-unit high-rise. As there is no law prohibitting OC on private property, and your lease allows you the "use and enjoyment" of the common areas of the apartment complex's property, there is no need for you to be granted any "permission" to OC on the apartment property.

stay safe.

skidmark
Incorrect, Sir... You are renting a space and not the entire property. You have full rights to the dwelling you have rented and this is why there is a law that allows you to have a gun there.

You will notice that the law prohibits anything in the lease to prevent a renter from having a firearm"within individual dwelling" and doesnotsay anythingabouta renters right outside the dwelling.

The property owner may allow you to use the pool or clubhouse... but they can easily revoke that at any time unless you are paying into it separately through some type of membership fee.

They couldprohibit openly displayed weapons on the common ground in the lease. You have NO RIGHTS to carry a firearm on the property of another without their permission. Once you rent a space... you have control over only that space.

Here is a part of the Virginia code that clearly identifies that a CC permit gives you no authority to possess a gun on property were prohibited by the owner.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.
Ok, precision. You're right on in that a CWP does not allow you to carry a weapon on private property where prohibited by the owner. That being said, 18.2-308 doesn't apply at all to the matter, as the "section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof". unfortunately I don't have a good definition of curtilage in the context of apartments as the definitions I've read apply to homes.


"Incorrect, Sir... You are renting a space and not the entire property. You have full rights to the dwelling you have rented and this is why there is a law that allows you to have a gun there."

I have to disagree stronly on this: The law does not grant rights to keep arms to the tenant, only prevents the landlord from infringing those rights.

From a different angle, what would happen if a call was recieved and police were dispatched to an apartment to find the owner telling an individual to remove himself from the property. When questioned, the individual reveals that he is the leasee, is up to date on all payments, and was walking to his rented apartment on his way home from work. The owner states that the individual is trespassing and wants the individual off his property and wants the individual arrested if if he ever sets foot on the property again. For clarity, remember that this is in a common area of an apartment building, like an entryway, and note that this falls into the category described above where "[y]ou are renting a space and not the entire property". What should the officer do in this situation? Does the individual stand risk of being arrested for trespassing for coming/going the next day?
 

Neplusultra

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stryth wrote:
From a different angle, what would happen if a call was recieved and police were dispatched to an apartment to find the owner telling an individual to remove himself from the property. When questioned, the individual reveals that he is the leasee, is up to date on all payments, and was walking to his rented apartment on his way home from work. The owner states that the individual is trespassing and wants the individual off his property and wants the individual arrested if if he ever sets foot on the property again. For clarity, remember that this is in a common area of an apartment building, like an entryway, and note that this falls into the category described above where "[y]ou are renting a space and not the entire property". What should the officer do in this situation? Does the individual stand risk of being arrested for trespassing for coming/going the next day?
IANAL and don't know how a court would go in this matter but I do believe that private property owners who allow unrestricted access to sections of their property as in malls, etc. lose certain rights of property owners. Someone recently posted a SCOTUS decision stating this same thing. You are in fact renting your apartment and all common areas, although the common areas are shared just like any public area.

I can see the other side of the argument too. But basically unless the property owner (public mall, apt complex) is providing security (restricted access) they cannot stop you from providing for your own security. Otherwise you are forced to choose between a place to live and your own protection, that's a Constitutional (albeit DOI) concept IMO.
 

LEO 229

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stryth wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
Incorrect, Sir... You are renting a space and not the entire property. You have full rights to the dwelling you have rented and this is why there is a law that allows you to have a gun there.

You will notice that the law prohibits anything in the lease to prevent a renter from having a firearm"within individual dwelling" and doesnotsay anythingabouta renters right outside the dwelling.

The property owner may allow you to use the pool or clubhouse... but they can easily revoke that at any time unless you are paying into it separately through some type of membership fee.

They couldprohibit openly displayed weapons on the common ground in the lease. You have NO RIGHTS to carry a firearm on the property of another without their permission. Once you rent a space... you have control over only that space.

Here is a part of the Virginia code that clearly identifies that a CC permit gives you no authority to possess a gun on property were prohibited by the owner.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.

I'd assume this is somewhere that case law would be critical, but I'd be pretty confident in a few details. If a landlord was able to prevent a tenant from entering a common area (like a hallway in an apartment) it would make it impossible to come or go from your rented apartment, and a landlord could prevent you from living there. Can we agree that a level of access is a given? Can we agree then that a landlord cannot prevent you from transporting arms in common areas for the purpose of ingress and egress?
You are always allowed unrestricted access to the space you rent. Being from state property through private property to the space itself.

The landlord could identify "you may not openly carry a firearm on the property" and this would permit you to CC or carry it in a secure container such as what the state says during transportation to and from your dwelling.
 

Doug Huffman

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stryth wrote:
That being said, 18.2-308 doesn't apply at all to the matter, as the "section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof". unfortunately I don't have a good definition of curtilage in the context of apartments as the definitions I've read apply to homes.
Your 'curtilage' is the unroofed area under your control. The concept is essential to the Castle Doctrine. Your curtilage may be the unroofed area where you have a legal right to be present armed. Some try to argue 'fenced' but there are plenty of examples of 'yard' as curtilage.

The term is from English common law.
 
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