Open Carry in an Apt Building

Doug Huffman · Jan 12, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

To make it easier.. let's say the apartment is on the top floor so there is no patio or balcony.

Unrealistically 'easier.'

I most recently moved from the 'top-est single-floor' apartment in Charleston, SC ('Dockside'). My upstairs neighbors all had two floor/story apartments. Each apartment had a 'balcony' so essential that they are included in the floor space fraction for calculating taxes and fees.

I carried at will - concealed out of respect for my neighbors (some extremely liberal) - on the grounds of the condominium.

Since I'm telling a law-related story, I'll tell another. The previous tenent of my apartment was a high official in state-university government (president?). He did two federal stretches, being removed in cuffs from what became my apartment when he was sent-up most recently. He was accused of money infractions and the evidence of the FBI searches was poorly repaired. We could detect large repaired holes in the walls where the interiors had been searched. The kitchen cabinetry floors had been pulled-up and so poorly repaired that the adjacent hallway A/C cooled my apartment very nicely. Believe nothing you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your pre-existing world view.

LEO 229 · Jan 12, 2008

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Doug Huffman wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

To make it easier.. let's say the apartment is on the top floor so there is no patio or balcony.

Click to expand...

Unrealistically 'easier.'

I most recently moved from the 'top-est single-floor' apartment in Charleston, SC ('Dockside'). My upstairs neighbors all had two floor/story apartments. Each apartment had a 'balcony' so essential that they are included in the floor space fraction for calculating taxes and fees.

I carried at will - concealed out of respect for my neighbors (some extremely liberal) - on the grounds of the condominium.

Since I'm telling a law-related story, I'll tell another. The previous tenent of my apartment was a high official in state-university government (president?). He did two federal stretches, being removed in cuffs from what became my apartment when he was sent-up most recently. He was accused of money infractions and the evidence of the FBI searches was poorly repaired. We could detect large repaired holes in the walls where the interiors had been searched. The kitchen cabinetry floors had been pulled-up and so poorly repaired that the adjacent hallway A/C cooled my apartment very nicely. Believe nothing you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your pre-existing world view.

What?

Dude.. lay off the pipe... You are to far gone. :lol:

LEO 229 · Jan 12, 2008

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Grapeshot wrote:

I am not going to get into a quoting of the law and debating the issues here. It's just not worth it but I will give you an opinion based on my 24 years experience as a real estate management executive who has spent countless hours in court and with real estate attorneys - proud to say haven't lost a case..........yet.

Re: Apartment rentals. You may rent a specific unit but you are entitled to the use of Common Areas i.e. grounds, playgrounds, parking lots, swimming pools et cetera within certain standardized rules of use that normally include quite enjoyment. They are not the "private property" of the landlord, property owner nor management agent. You cannot be punished by the property owner nor agent of the government for normal/lawful use. To attempt to do so would potentially provide a tidy retirement fund for the aggrieved.

I have never known a management company/owner in Virginia that even hinted that lawful firearms were not permitted in any way, shape or form. If there are such, I'd be interested but think that is a subject for another thread and I might want to move there.

Sorry LEO229. you're dead wrong on this one.

Yata hey

No.. I am not "dead wrong" and you have provided nothing but an layman's opinion.

True.. when you rent an apartment you have use of the common area. But that does not mean that you can do anything you like and the property manager can place restrictions on how it is used.

I have rented a few apartments in my day and they can prohibit cabs from being parked on the property, prohibit you from working on your vehicle in the parking lot, prohibit moving into your apartment on Sundays and after 10PM, among other things.

So you do have use of the property... but they can and do place restrictions on how it is used. None of the apartments I stay athad banned firearms. But in the prior posts you can see that the courts have ruled that they cannot make it part of the lease prohibiting you from having a firearm in ... your dwelling!

This is a very important point. The courts NEVER saidthe landlord could not prohibitfirearms in the common areas. Therefore....the landlord CAN prohibit firearms on the property just like they can prohibit cabs, pets, and people.

They cannot "punish" you by sending you to jail. But they can fine you or even terminate your lease. As long as the the item they want to enforce is clearly spelled out in the lease.... they can take action against you.

This is rather simple stuff to comprehend here. But many of you want to work it in some other fashion so that it benefits you. Sorry, it does not work that way.

Grapeshot wrote:

They are not the "private property" of the landlord, property owner nor management agent.

Are you saying the common areas are not private property and that is does NOT belong to a property owner?

Just who does it belong to then? I would love to here your response because you are dead wrong. :lol:

Doug Huffman · Jan 12, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

you have provided nothing but an layman's opinion.

argumentum ad verecundiam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argument in logic, consisting on basing the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge or position of the person asserting it. It is also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source. The corresponding reverse case would be an ad hominem attack: to imply that the claim is false because the asserter lacks authority or is otherwise objectionable.

On the other hand, there is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true, in contrast to claiming that the authority is infallible in principle and can hence be exempted from criticism: It can be true, the truth can merely not be proven, or made probable by attributing it to the authority, and the assumption that the assertion was true might be subject to criticism and turn out to have been wrong actually. If a criticism appears that contradicts the authority's statement, then merely the fact that the statement originated from the authority is not an argument for ignoring the criticism.

LW, enough!

Doug Huffman · Jan 12, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

Dude.. lay off the pipe... You are to far gone.

LW, enough!

DeadCenter · Jan 12, 2008

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Grapeshot wrote:

I am not going to get into a quoting of the law and debating the issues here. It's just not worth it but I will give you an opinion based on my 24 years experience as a real estate management executive who has spent countless hours in court and with real estate attorneys - proud to say haven't lost a case..........yet.

Re: Apartment rentals. You may rent a specific unit but you are entitled to the use of Common Areas i.e. grounds, playgrounds, parking lots, swimming pools et cetera within certain standardized rules of use that normally include quite enjoyment. They are not the "private property" of the landlord, property owner nor management agent. You cannot be punished by the property owner nor agent of the government for normal/lawful use. To attempt to do so would potentially provide a tidy retirement fund for the aggrieved.

I have never known a management company/owner in Virginia that even hinted that lawful firearms were not permitted in any way, shape or form. If there are such, I'd be interested but think that is a subject for another thread and I might want to move there.

Sorry LEO229. you're dead wrong on this one.

Yata hey

That is the way I understand it.

Weak 9mm · Jan 23, 2008

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I am currently concerned about this very issue in my Apartment complex. Nobody has said anything to me, but I can't imagine they've never noticed me OC.

My thoughts are:

1. They can NOT deny my right to have a firearm in my home.

2. If they deny me the ability to possess a firearm anywhere outside of my apartment, I would not be able to take the gun to or from the apartment, correct?

Like if a sign on a private establishment of some kind said; no concealed weapons, you still can't bring an unloaded gun in a bag with a gun lock on it inside that area. In the same way, if the sign were in an apartment complex and you, as a tenant and not a guest on the property, had to obey it, that would seem to make it IMPOSSIBLE to enter or leave your home with a firearm. It seems illegal to make such a demand to me. I think they could demand that a non-tenant leave the property, but I don't see how they could demand that I disarm, no matter how you cut it.

DeadCenter · Jan 23, 2008

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I do this every day in rental property for two years. No problems.

I'msure people will have a different opinions.

Mine goes something like this.

Common areas can not be restricted because you need to get to your rental property.

Call me an ass -- but, I think the same applies to the post office (In the box rental area only) because you need access to what you have paid for.

If it is not in the rental agreement then your good. In my opinion anyway.

Weak 9mm · Jan 23, 2008

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I do not recall reading this in the rental agreement, but I cannot say for sure as I can't find a copy of it at the moment. Perhaps I could request it the next time I go up there. Although, as others have said, I can't imagine that part of the agreement could be considered legal if it required me to give up my rights in order to live there. Also, they sure let me know right away when my tire was flat that it was a problem. I would think they'd have let me know about this by now as well, but maybe not.

As far as the agreement, I would guess it's like when people write "Stay back xxx ft. Not responsible for windshields." on thier truck. It could say it 5000 times on the truck, but if their load is not properly secured, that doesn't make it everyone elses fault when their windshields are damaged by the truck loosing some or all of it's load. You can write things on contracts that aren't actually legal requests, and won't hold up in court. Of course, the question is, do you have the time or money to deal with such an issue? Perhaps they would reserve the right to end the lease, but I would hope that they'd at least attempt to be reasonable and say something (Or write something) about it first.

Grapeshot · Jan 24, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

Are you saying the common areas are not private property and that is does NOT belong to a property owner?

Just who does it belong to then? I would love to here your response because you are dead wrong. :lol:

The property owner is the owner of record but has leased along with the apartment proper, the common areas and use thereof. Privately, partnership or corporate owned, it makes no difference. Unless an activity or use is specifically restricted in the Rules and Regulations attached to and made part of the lease or is contrary to law, it is not enforceable. The property owner may restrict what goes on in his own back yard at will, but definitely not so with leased property.

I tire of debating ill informed sources. Rather than make this an endless cycle, I suggest that you contact a competant real estate attorney. My last word on the subject.
Yata hey

LEO 229 · Jan 24, 2008

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Grapeshot wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Are you saying the common areas are not private property and that is does NOT belong to a property owner?

Just who does it belong to then? I would love to here your response because you are dead wrong. :lol:

Click to expand...

The property owner is the owner of record but has leased along with the apartment proper, the common areas and use thereof. Privately, partnership or corporate owned, it makes no difference. Unless an activity or use is specifically restricted in the Rules and Regulations attached to and made part of the lease or is contrary to law, it is not enforceable. The property owner may restrict what goes on in his own back yard at will, but definitely not so with leased property.

I tire of debating ill informed sources. Rather than make this an endless cycle, I suggest that you contact a competant real estate attorney. My last word on the subject.
Yata hey

You have rambled on just long enough to actually dodge the question with mass confusion.

It is simple.... the property.... be it the parking lot, the buildings, or the green grassy areas ALL belong to the owner"of record"as you like to say.

That means the owner of the property has control and can set any rules they desire. I suggest you brush up on civil law and take that attorney out to lunch. You have no clue what your talking about here.

LEO 229 · Jan 24, 2008

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Weak 9mm wrote:

I do not recall reading this in the rental agreement, but I cannot say for sure as I can't find a copy of it at the moment. Perhaps I could request it the next time I go up there. Although, as others have said, I can't imagine that part of the agreement could be considered legal if it required me to give up my rights in order to live there. Also, they sure let me know right away when my tire was flat that it was a problem. I would think they'd have let me know about this by now as well, but maybe not.

As far as the agreement, I would guess it's like when people write "Stay back xxx ft. Not responsible for windshields." on thier truck. It could say it 5000 times on the truck, but if their load is not properly secured, that doesn't make it everyone elses fault when their windshields are damaged by the truck loosing some or all of it's load. You can write things on contracts that aren't actually legal requests, and won't hold up in court. Of course, the question is, do you have the time or money to deal with such an issue? Perhaps they would reserve the right to end the lease, but I would hope that they'd at least attempt to be reasonable and say something (Or write something) about it first.

The lease is a legally binding document between the two parties. It sets the rules that both agree to.

Posting a note on the back of a dump truck is a warning only and not a legally binding contract. The company is warning that they will be refusing to take responsibility for damage but you never agreed to that while you are forced to follow behind the truck.

If you can prove the rocks spilled from the vehicle... you have a case and can go after them. This happens so much that they put that up just to cut back on the number of claims. If it works one time... they are successful.

Weak 9mm · Jan 24, 2008

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I understand everything you just said.... You aren't explaining anything new to me. It is a fact that even a signed contract wont apply when it demands things that are not legal to demand. If in fact it isn't legal for them to make such a demand, then it's not legal, signing the contract has nothing to do with that.

I have had to do this before, not in an apartment, but it involved a contract. I was successful in having all damages paid for. This was not a random document btw, it was one that I'd imagine lawyers had helped write considering what this place was and the amount of money involved. I had stated in the contract that I wouldn't do what i did (Demand compensation for damages that resulted), but they also expected something that was not legal to expect of me when they decided to do something that was negligent. Making this request, in a similar manner, violates the tenant's rights.

Now, I wouldn't just sign a contract and go against it for no reason, like I said, I never saw anything of that sort in the lease. Because I'm an honest person, I just won't say for SURE yet that it is not in there, simply because I don't have a copy right in front of me and I don't want to lie about it.

They cannot legally prevent me from taking my firearm to and from my apartment though. I HAVE to take it through "their property," as you call it, when I leave MY home to go to MY car. If I were simply not allowed to have firearms on the premisis then they would be preventing me from owning a firearm, as I could never bring it into or out of my home. That in and of itself is not a legal request to make. When somewhere has a sign that says "NO GUNS," it means NO GUNS. As in, you can't take an unloaded, locked gun in a bag onto that property either, especially when it says "NO GUNS."

How could that be a legal request to make of tenants? Once again, this would mean that nobody could take a firearm into or out of their residence.

swatpro911 · Jan 24, 2008

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I also live in arlington and own condominium, you sure it wasn't me? Most of the time I open carry but during winter times less-C4- wrote:

Yesterday afternoon I saw a guy coming out of the stairwell OCing in my Apt building. This was the first time I have actually seen someone OCing in Arlington, but this did get me thinking. Technically an Apt building is private property. So how does the law handle me as a renter open carrying? E.g. can the Apt building have me evicted etc? Can the apartment building prevent me from owning firearms?

swatpro911 · Jan 24, 2008

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i like what leo229 said, then again chek with your rental office or management office about gun carrys and explain to them, if necessary educate them. Most of the time they will comply.LEO 229 wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

I am not going to get into a quoting of the law and debating the issues here. It's just not worth it but I will give you an opinion based on my 24 years experience as a real estate management executive who has spent countless hours in court and with real estate attorneys - proud to say haven't lost a case..........yet.

Re: Apartment rentals. You may rent a specific unit but you are entitled to the use of Common Areas i.e. grounds, playgrounds, parking lots, swimming pools et cetera within certain standardized rules of use that normally include quite enjoyment. They are not the "private property" of the landlord, property owner nor management agent. You cannot be punished by the property owner nor agent of the government for normal/lawful use. To attempt to do so would potentially provide a tidy retirement fund for the aggrieved.

I have never known a management company/owner in Virginia that even hinted that lawful firearms were not permitted in any way, shape or form. If there are such, I'd be interested but think that is a subject for another thread and I might want to move there.

Sorry LEO229. you're dead wrong on this one.

Yata hey

Click to expand...

No.. I am not "dead wrong" and you have provided nothing but an layman's opinion.

True.. when you rent an apartment you have use of the common area. But that does not mean that you can do anything you like and the property manager can place restrictions on how it is used.

I have rented a few apartments in my day and they can prohibit cabs from being parked on the property, prohibit you from working on your vehicle in the parking lot, prohibit moving into your apartment on Sundays and after 10PM, among other things.

So you do have use of the property... but they can and do place restrictions on how it is used. None of the apartments I stay athad banned firearms. But in the prior posts you can see that the courts have ruled that they cannot make it part of the lease prohibiting you from having a firearm in ... your dwelling!

This is a very important point. The courts NEVER saidthe landlord could not prohibitfirearms in the common areas. Therefore....the landlord CAN prohibit firearms on the property just like they can prohibit cabs, pets, and people.

They cannot "punish" you by sending you to jail. But they can fine you or even terminate your lease. As long as the the item they want to enforce is clearly spelled out in the lease.... they can take action against you.

This is rather simple stuff to comprehend here. But many of you want to work it in some other fashion so that it benefits you. Sorry, it does not work that way.

Grapeshot wrote:

They are not the "private property" of the landlord, property owner nor management agent.

Click to expand...

Are you saying the common areas are not private property and that is does NOT belong to a property owner?

Just who does it belong to then? I would love to here your response because you are dead wrong. :lol:

LEO 229 · Jan 25, 2008

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Weak 9mm wrote:

I understand everything you just said.... You aren't explaining anything new to me. It is a fact that even a signed contract wont apply when it demands things that are not legal to demand. If in fact it isn't legal for them to make such a demand, then it's not legal, signing the contract has nothing to do with that.

I have had to do this before, not in an apartment, but it involved a contract. I was successful in having all damages paid for. This was not a random document btw, it was one that I'd imagine lawyers had helped write considering what this place was and the amount of money involved. I had stated in the contract that I wouldn't do what i did (Demand compensation for damages that resulted), but they also expected something that was not legal to expect of me when they decided to do something that was negligent. Making this request, in a similar manner, violates the tenant's rights.

Now, I wouldn't just sign a contract and go against it for no reason, like I said, I never saw anything of that sort in the lease. Because I'm an honest person, I just won't say for SURE yet that it is not in there, simply because I don't have a copy right in front of me and I don't want to lie about it.

They cannot legally prevent me from taking my firearm to and from my apartment though. I HAVE to take it through "their property," as you call it, when I leave MY home to go to MY car. If I were simply not allowed to have firearms on the premisis then they would be preventing me from owning a firearm, as I could never bring it into or out of my home. That in and of itself is not a legal request to make. When somewhere has a sign that says "NO GUNS," it means NO GUNS. As in, you can't take an unloaded, locked gun in a bag onto that property either, especially when it says "NO GUNS."

How could that be a legal request to make of tenants? Once again, this would mean that nobody could take a firearm into or out of their residence.

I believe I have already agreed that you are permittedto transport your gun from public property onto the private property while you make your way to your rented space.

The manner in how this is allowed could be dictated in the lease requiring that it be unloaded and in a secure container. Remembering that the landlord MUST allow you to have a gun in your rented space does not mean you get to carry it to your space any way you like.

If you could just slap it on your hip and carry openly while walking to your apartment... you could take the "long way" around where you would be all over the property and in the face of the staff. Does this make sense?

The courts have already ruled.... the landlord cannot prohibit you from having a firearm in your rented space. The courts left the door open for ruleson private property and while the gun is being transported to that space.

I hope this helps to clarify things.

MMMM

-C4- · Jan 25, 2008

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My building is only apts.... so I doubt it.

swatpro911 wrote:

I also live in arlington and own condominium, you sure it wasn't me? Most of the time I open carry but during winter times less-C4- wrote:

Yesterday afternoon I saw a guy coming out of the stairwell OCing in my Apt building. This was the first time I have actually seen someone OCing in Arlington, but this did get me thinking. Technically an Apt building is private property. So how does the law handle me as a renter open carrying? E.g. can the Apt building have me evicted etc? Can the apartment building prevent me from owning firearms?

Click to expand...

Open Carry in an Apt Building

Doug Huffman

Banned

LEO 229

Regular Member

LEO 229

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Doug Huffman

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Doug Huffman

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DeadCenter

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Weak 9mm

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DeadCenter

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Weak 9mm

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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior

LEO 229

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LEO 229

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Weak 9mm

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swatpro911

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swatpro911

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LEO 229

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-C4-

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