utbagpiper
Banned
imported post
David Nelson wrote
However, considering that houses of worship are one of only TWO privately owned properties in the State of Utah (along with private residences) where there is any potential for a direct, criminal charge for having an unwanted gun present, there are going to be times when churches are definately directly on-topic here.
And in the Utah pages specifically, one would have to be grossly ignorant or naive to think that the opinions and views of the LDS Church--both those that are officially and publicly expressed, as well as those that are likely to be expressed privately to law makers--are not relevant when those opinions touch upon gun laws or RKBA.
And between the '96 press release from the first presidency disinviting ALL privately carried weapons (but exempting LEOs), the official actions of the LDS church to avail themselves of the law allowing them to ban private guns just after the law went into effect in about '03, the press release at about that same time, and the letter sent to Bishop's (but not read over the pulpit) about the same time, along with semi-private information I and others who have worked this issue with the LDS Church know and have attempted to properly convey to any willing to listen, it is clear that the LDS Church leadership does not want privately owned guns on their property here in Utah. I'll say again, the current law was and is a compromise. The LDS Church (and some other churches I might add) did NOT get everything they wanted. Neither was it everything the RKBA community might have hoped for. But it is a workable, if imperfect, balance between RKBA and the right to control private, religious property.
Dave, let's stop dancing around this and cut to the chase. The LDS Church has taken a political and legal position at odds with most all on this list when it comes to RKBA. They have an even longer, and much more active history taking both political, legal, social, and doctrinal positions in direct confclit with your views on gay issues. I suspect there are several other issues where you and the LDS Church have been at odds given their socially conserativism and your more liberal view of the world including perhpas the ERA and gambling. I would further suspect that most of those who have most actively opposed you on other political and social matters including "hate crimes" legislation have been active members of the LDS Church (though I note the LDS Church did everything short of actually endorsing the last "hate crimes" bill to come along). And yes, I put "hate crimes" in quotes because I'm not sure what a "love crime" is and I oppose giving special protections to anyone because of group membership. Rights are individual, not collective, but such comments are, by my own admission, inapproprite on an RKBA list.
Your angsts towards and unhappiness with the LDS Church is understandable. It is also tiresome on an RKBA list (especially on the Utah portion of such a list). Let it go and focus on what you can change. Affiliate with whatever church or other organization will meet your spiritual and social needs. Stop digging at or trying to antagonize the LDS Church on RKBA. It does no good, wastes energy, and is likely to result in hard feelings.
I will also continue to remind you and others of the unique political realities in Utah. Going head to head against the LDS church in Utah is like going head to head against corn growers in Iowa or the UAW in Michigan. It is an exercise best avoided if at all possible. Fortunately, going head to head with pro-RKBA community in Utah is very similar. So we have an uneasy--but perfectly workable--"truce" on guns. Take it for what it is worth.
David Nelson wrote
I agree that all Churches and religion are generally off topic here as well.And another: RKBA and the Mormon church. It expressed its opinion clearly.
However, considering that houses of worship are one of only TWO privately owned properties in the State of Utah (along with private residences) where there is any potential for a direct, criminal charge for having an unwanted gun present, there are going to be times when churches are definately directly on-topic here.
And in the Utah pages specifically, one would have to be grossly ignorant or naive to think that the opinions and views of the LDS Church--both those that are officially and publicly expressed, as well as those that are likely to be expressed privately to law makers--are not relevant when those opinions touch upon gun laws or RKBA.
And between the '96 press release from the first presidency disinviting ALL privately carried weapons (but exempting LEOs), the official actions of the LDS church to avail themselves of the law allowing them to ban private guns just after the law went into effect in about '03, the press release at about that same time, and the letter sent to Bishop's (but not read over the pulpit) about the same time, along with semi-private information I and others who have worked this issue with the LDS Church know and have attempted to properly convey to any willing to listen, it is clear that the LDS Church leadership does not want privately owned guns on their property here in Utah. I'll say again, the current law was and is a compromise. The LDS Church (and some other churches I might add) did NOT get everything they wanted. Neither was it everything the RKBA community might have hoped for. But it is a workable, if imperfect, balance between RKBA and the right to control private, religious property.
Dave, let's stop dancing around this and cut to the chase. The LDS Church has taken a political and legal position at odds with most all on this list when it comes to RKBA. They have an even longer, and much more active history taking both political, legal, social, and doctrinal positions in direct confclit with your views on gay issues. I suspect there are several other issues where you and the LDS Church have been at odds given their socially conserativism and your more liberal view of the world including perhpas the ERA and gambling. I would further suspect that most of those who have most actively opposed you on other political and social matters including "hate crimes" legislation have been active members of the LDS Church (though I note the LDS Church did everything short of actually endorsing the last "hate crimes" bill to come along). And yes, I put "hate crimes" in quotes because I'm not sure what a "love crime" is and I oppose giving special protections to anyone because of group membership. Rights are individual, not collective, but such comments are, by my own admission, inapproprite on an RKBA list.
Your angsts towards and unhappiness with the LDS Church is understandable. It is also tiresome on an RKBA list (especially on the Utah portion of such a list). Let it go and focus on what you can change. Affiliate with whatever church or other organization will meet your spiritual and social needs. Stop digging at or trying to antagonize the LDS Church on RKBA. It does no good, wastes energy, and is likely to result in hard feelings.
I will also continue to remind you and others of the unique political realities in Utah. Going head to head against the LDS church in Utah is like going head to head against corn growers in Iowa or the UAW in Michigan. It is an exercise best avoided if at all possible. Fortunately, going head to head with pro-RKBA community in Utah is very similar. So we have an uneasy--but perfectly workable--"truce" on guns. Take it for what it is worth.