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Thread: Notice: No swords in assembly building

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.P...1-12-0113.html

    Notice: No swords in assembly building
    Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 12:09 AM
    By CHRIS I. YOUNGTIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER

    Charles Evans Hughes Sr. learned an important lesson yesterday: When trying to visit your legislator, don't bring a prop to prove your point, especially if it's a sword.
    Virginia Capitol Police at the General Assembly Building stopped Hughes at the metal detector when he declared his sword, which was sheathed in a leather-wrapped walking cane. He had a permit to carry a concealed handgun, but police told him to leave the sword cane outside.

    "They said it's considered a concealed weapon, and I told them this went along with my outfit," Hughes, wearing an 1880s-era sheriff uniform and accoutrements, said outside the building.

    He said he came to talk to state officials about changing the concealed-weapons law. "I'm not out here to harm anybody or do anything. I'm just minding my own business," said Hughes, 69, of Richmond.

    Capitol Police Lt. Randall Howard confirmed that Hughes would have been able to enter the building had he been carrying a pistol, assuming his concealed-handgun permit was valid.

    "We respect the right of the public to come to the Capitol, and we encourage that, but it's our job to make sure to provide a safe and secure environment for visitors to the Capitol," Howard said. "They're common-sense procedures and pretty standard."
    Visitors to the General Assembly Building must walk through a metal detector and have their belongings scanned by an X-ray machine.

    "You're talking about two different things, a sword versus a pistol," Howard said. "Part of our job is to make sure illegal weapons aren't allowed in the building, and a large weapon such as a sword obviously would be a concern to us in terms of the safety and well-being of others in the building."

    Hughes found someone at a nearby parking lot to watch his sword cane, and he went back to the building.
    Contact Chris I. Young at (804) 649-6754 or cyoung@timesdispatch.com.


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    69 year old man with a sword vs. 69 year old man with a high capacity handgun...

    The law sure is balanced.

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    steveforopen wrote:
    69 year old man with a sword vs. 69 year old man with a high capacity handgun...

    The law sure is balanced.
    I was thinking the same thing!

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    You can't use logic when dealing with state legislators or employees of the state when it comes to weapons. Virginia Tech still doen't allow students to carry firearms even after a massacre on their "gun free campus", right? And doesn't the administration still oppose it.

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    He's lucky he wasn't arrested. Carrying a concealed weapon is a crime unless you have a permit for it and Virginia only issues permits for guns, not other types of weapons.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Is it the carry of swords that is prohibited in the General Assembly Building, or is itthe carry of a concealed weapon that is prohibited?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    junglebob wrote:
    You can't use logic when dealing with state legislators or employees of the state when it comes to weapons.
    Strike the word "weapons" and replace with the word "anything."

    Bureaucrats ae stupid. They know how to do nothing but follow orders and kill people.

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    Thundar wrote:
    Is it the carry of swords that is prohibited in the General Assembly Building, or is itthe carry of a concealed weapon that is prohibited?
    Good question.

    Is there a defined list of prohibited items or does it just say "weapon".

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    Is it the carry of swords that is prohibited in the General Assembly Building, or is itthe carry of a concealed weapon that is prohibited?
    Good question.

    Is there a defined list of prohibited items or does it just say "weapon".

    Well, yes. There is a very handy little list:

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor...

    The basic concept from the format is that all concealed weapons are made illegal by the first paragraph of 18.2-308. Later paragraphs then addressexceptions.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    Is it the carry of swords that is prohibited in the General Assembly Building, or is itthe carry of a concealed weapon that is prohibited?
    Good question.

    Is there a defined list of prohibited items or does it just say "weapon".

    Well, yes. There is a very handy little list:

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor...

    The basic concept from the format is that all concealed weapons are made illegal by the first paragraph of 18.2-308. Later paragraphs then addressexceptions.
    Permit me to clarify further...

    Since I have been here a while and I have viewed the 18.2-308 code many times... I am aware of the various weapons listed in regards to the carry of concealed weapons.

    I was actually directing my question to the general assembly building.

    Is there a sign or list of prohibited items?? If there is a list... does it only refer to "weapons" being prohibited.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    SNIP I was actually directing my question to the general assembly building.
    No offense, but think about that for a moment.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    On second thought, I think that you could argue that carrying a sword in a sword sheath isn't concealing as to the meaning of the statute since to conceal is to hide the character of the weapon from common observation. A sheath with a handle sticking out says to the world, "hey I have a sword" just like a holster with the handle sticking out says, "hey I have a gun."

    Also, I don't see sword as one of the prohibited items unless it'sconsidered knife.

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    I don't think we'll end this General Assembly rules discussionuntil somebody can get a copy of the (JRC?) Rule.

    I hunted around on the General Assembly's website. No luck.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    The code lists a number of weapons which may not be carried concealed.

    Then it permits issuance of a concealed firearms permit.

    What allows carry of any of the other things concealed? If I load fencing gear into a bag, not securely wrapped, and I don't go immediately to/from an event?

    I realize the example isn't really the greatest, but surely there must be some way to carry those other weapons concealed. The permit, in VA, is only for carrying a concealed handgun, right?
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    I don't think we'll end this General Assembly rules discussionuntil somebody can get a copy of the (JRC?) Rule.

    I hunted around on the General Assembly's website. No luck.
    I also looked forthe rulesbut could not find them.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Well, yes. There is a very handy little list:

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor...

    The basic concept from the format is that all concealed weapons are made illegal by the first paragraph of 18.2-308. Later paragraphs then addressexceptions.
    Where is sword in this section?

    IANAL, but section (v) "of like kind" does not, in my opinion,include pocket knives, buck knives or swords.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Tess wrote:
    What allows carry of any of the other things concealed? If I load fencing gear into a bag, not securely wrapped, and I don't go immediately to/from an event?
    Good point, Tess.Yours, too, Thundar.

    Concealed swords aren't included. Neither are concealed foils or sabers--fencing weapons. The catchall phrase, (v), has the limiter "like kind" and there is nothing "like" mentioned in the list.

    So, 18.2-308 wouldn't apply. About the only thing left would be aweapons prohibition in the General Assembly's rules. And maybe some sort of court opinion.

    I hereby publicly eat just a little bit of crow for giving LEO229 a hard time above.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Thundar wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I don't think we'll end this General Assembly rules discussionuntil somebody can get a copy of the (JRC?) Rule.

    I hunted around on the General Assembly's website. No luck.
    I also looked forthe rulesbut could not find them.
    Ask and ye shall receive, at least the GA firearms restrictions.
    http://www.virginia1774.org/JointRules.pdf

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    longwatch wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I don't think we'll end this General Assembly rules discussionuntil somebody can get a copy of the (JRC?) Rule.

    I hunted around on the General Assembly's website. No luck.
    I also looked forthe rulesbut could not find them.
    Ask and ye shall receive, at least the GA firearms restrictions.
    http://www.virginia1774.org/JointRules.pdf

    That covers firearms. I was almost ready tohowl another case of over-stepping LE, then realized there may be another general prohibition somewhere.

    Nooo. An earlier general prohibition against weapons would have automatically included firearms. It certainly wouldn't have made an exception for guns while banning everything else.

    I'm starting to think this fella was illegally disarmed.

    Thanks, Longwatch. Gotta keep that www.virginia1774.org in mind.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I don't think we'll end this General Assembly rules discussionuntil somebody can get a copy of the (JRC?) Rule.

    I hunted around on the General Assembly's website. No luck.
    I also looked forthe rulesbut could not find them.
    Ask and ye shall receive, at least the GA firearms restrictions.
    http://www.virginia1774.org/JointRules.pdf
    That covers firearms. I was almost ready tohowl another case of over-stepping LE, then realized there may be another general prohibition somewhere.

    Nooo. An earlier general prohibition against weapons would have automatically included firearms. It certainly wouldn't have made an exception for guns while banning everything else.

    I'm starting to think this fella was illegally disarmed.
    I'm still searching for where the rules actually written, maybe I'll find it tonight. If not I will be asking someone down at the GA for it.
    As for illegally disarmed or turned away. Maybe,but they have banned unlicensed carry without a challenge or having to pass a law, whats to stop them from banning swords? Another issue that has been brought up is if a sword cane is covered under 18.2-308. It could be considered a dirk, which is a dagger but also a short naval sword.

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    longwatch wrote:
    SNIP As for illegally disarmed or turned away. Maybe,but they have banned unlicensed carry without a challenge or having to pass a law, whats to stop them from banning swords? Another issue that has been brought up is if a sword cane is covered under 18.2-308. It could be considered a dirk, which is a dagger but also a short naval sword.
    I was thinking more about the LE not havingcurrent authority.

    Of course, the part about the various meanings of the word dirk seems to cover it. One of the tidbits on Wikipedia is that some Irish dirks were 21" long. I think the enforcement people would be happy to use that information to declare a sword cane a "like kind" to a dirk.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
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    Uh, so I have to remove the bayonet from my Mossberg 590 when I visit??

    okaaaay......
    A. Gold

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    Shotgun wrote:
    Uh, so I have to remove the bayonet from my Mossberg 590 when I visit??

    okaaaay......
    You have a bayonet on your Mossberg? Now THERE is a trench fighting gun!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I think the gentleman in question is lucky to not have been arrested, however melee weapons that are not enumerated as prohibited in 18.2-308, are kinda a grey area. He might have been able to beat any charges.

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    longwatch wrote:
    I think the gentleman in question is lucky to not have been arrested, however melee weapons that are not enumerated as prohibited in 18.2-308, are kinda a grey area. He might have been able to beat any charges.
    Probably professional courtesy since he was dressed as a 19th century sheriff.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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