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Thread: if stoped oc,ing walking down sidewalk

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    in mi. if stoped by police while oc,ing and police ask to see i.d. are u required by law to show i.d. or to just give your name

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    Any refusal to comply with a LEO's request can end up in your arrest. Further giving them the "I know my rights" and the "Go eat a donut"attitude will get you a heap of problems real fast.

    Any time you are stopped my a legitimate Police officer, and I am not talking Wanna Be LEO AKA security guard, you are under a form of detention. If you are courteous and respectful will end up with you gaining their respect, trust, and with you continuing on your mission un-impeded. Do anything else and you may get to see what the inside of a jail cell looks like. After all they are human and do not like being talked down too anymore than you do.

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    So Sheldon...is Michigan a "Stop and ID State"?

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    According to the map, Michigan does not require a permit and it is generally lawful, but there are severe restrictions.

    The laws as I found here: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...s/firearms.pdf

    does not disallow open carry, but does disallow carry by those with malicious intent to commit or in commission of a crime. It also disallows unlicensed carry in certain places including banks, theaters, day cares, hospitals, etc. Finally, it prohibits brandishing a firearm, but does not define the term. The dictionary definition used in one Michigan AG opinion is "to display ostentatiously". The opinion states that a peace officer cannot be guilty of brandishing while in the course of his duties, but does not extend that to citizens.

    Because there are no assumption doctrines or pre-emption, and no other laws to the contrary, a peace officer, if he is ableto articulate cause to do so,may detainsomeone carrying openlylong enough to ascertain that they are not currently or about to commit a crime, and may commence detention by asking to see ID. While checkingID, the officer mayask reasonable questions about your destination, and ifyou're headeda banned location hemay inform you to that effect, but may not detain you further as you have not demonstrated malicious intent to commit a crimenor have youactually trespassed while carrying.

    In addition, a person who is, in the opinion ofan officer, carrying openly for the primary purpose of causing unrest or intimidation is brandishing the firearm even if it is holstered, and can be detained and ticketed, summoned or arrested for that offense. The person so charged mustshow he didn't have that intent, and/or was hunting, target shooting or displaying the firearm for sale, purchase, repair or transfer. Intent is difficult to prove or disprove; the burden should be on the prosecution but you will have to defend yourself against the officer's testimony.

    none of this would apply if the Michigan state constitution, legal code or case laweither expressly allowed open carry with pre-emptionor otherwisedirected peace officers and others to assume that someone carrying openly is doing so lawfully if there is noreasonable suspicionto the contrary.

    IANAL; I'm just calling it like I see it. In general,if an officer decides you're committing a crime, you're highly unlikely to convince him otherwise, and if same officer decides you're going to jail, you're going whether the arrest is legal or not.Whether you are in commission of a crimeand/or the arrest is legalare not expressly codified and are therefore points to be argued case by case before a judge, at least until the Michigan legislators see fit to change the law.

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    bossbart wrote:
    in mi. if stoped by police while oc,ing and police ask to see i.d. are u required by law to show i.d. or to just give your name

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0941--,00.html


    This only pertains to those with a CPL.



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    Sheldon wrote:
    Any refusal to comply with a LEO's request can end up in your arrest. Further giving them the "I know my rights" and the "Go eat a donut"attitude will get you a heap of problems real fast.

    Any time you are stopped my a legitimate Police officer, and I am not talking Wanna Be LEO AKA security guard, you are under a form of detention. If you are courteous and respectful will end up with you gaining their respect, trust, and with you continuing on your mission un-impeded. Do anything else and you may get to see what the inside of a jail cell looks like. After all they are human and do not like being talked down too anymore than you do.
    So if a LEO requested that you give him $50, you would??

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    Scrolling down the page will reveal that I already started this topic...

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/5505.html
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Michigander wrote:
    Scrolling down the page will reveal that I already started this topic...

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/5505.html
    Unfortunately, I didn't see any link to a law stating that it's required. Maybe something to ask a legal beagal section.

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    That's just it, there isn't one. Not much more to it. If a cop gives you a hard time about not wanting to show him or her your ID on a less than Terry stop, you can ask for the law that mandates such a thing.

    No such thing exists.:celebrate
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    If you don't caary an ID, declining the officer's "request" is much easier to do for many reasons.

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    Sheldon wrote:
    I am not talking Wanna Be LEO AKA security guard, ...
    http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/criminal_rights/your-rights-search-and-seizure/understanding-search-and-seizure-law(1).html

    Private security personnel currently outnumber police officers in the United States by three to one. As a result, ... you may be more likely to be confronted by a security guard than by a police officer. At the present time, the Fourth Amendment does not apply to searches carried out by non-governmental employees like private security guards.

    For example, assume that a shopping mall security guard acting on a pure hunch searches a teenager's backpack. Inside the backpack the guard finds a baggie containing an illegal drug. The guard can detain the teenager, call the police, and turn the drug over to a police officer. The drug is admissible in evidence, because the search was conducted by a private security guard. As private security guards increasingly exercise traditional police functions, courts may one day apply Fourth Amendment guidelines to their conduct.

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    Liko81 wrote:
    In addition, a person who is, in the opinion ofan officer, carrying openly for the primary purpose of causing unrest or intimidation is brandishing the firearm even if it is holstered, and can be detained and ticketed, summoned or arrested for that offense. The person so charged mustshow he didn't have that intent, and/or was hunting, target shooting or displaying the firearm for sale, purchase, repair or transfer. Intent is difficult to prove or disprove; the burden should be on the prosecution but you will have to defend yourself against the officer's testimony.
    Why would the person have to show he was hunting, target shooting...? I thought I was allowed to carry it to protect myself. And, a person charged doesn't have to show he/she didn't have that intent. The burden of proof lies with the prosecution, as you said(i.e., innocent until proven guilty?). So, the prosecution must show thecitizen did have the intent of causing unrest or intimidation. Just because something is, 'in the opinion of an officer' wrong, doesn't make it against the law.

    That being said, someone who would make an officer (or anyoneelse)believe they are causing unrest or intimidating probably isn't being a responsible citizen.



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    bossbart wrote:
    in mi. if stoped by police while oc,ing and police ask to see i.d. are u required by law to show i.d. or to just give your name
    Why wouldn't you?

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    kmcdowel wrote:
    bossbart wrote:
    in mi. if stoped by police while oc,ing and police ask to see i.d. are u required by law to show i.d. or to just give your name
    Why wouldn't you?
    Because it's none of their business?

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    ...It would be good to know, because I have a bad habbit if forgetting my wallet.

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    Well STOP FORGETTING!



    Personally, if asked, I would show I.D.

    I would rather make a friend, then piss off a cop.

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    I know a lot of cops, and I don't see it that way. No cop who would harass me about having to see my ID for no reason could be my friend. If politely informing an officer that you aren't required to identify yourself if you aren't being Terry stopped is too much for that officer to handle without blowing his top off, that's tough crap for that cop. Big brother has no need or right to know who you are or what you are up to unless you are breaking a law or under reasonable suspicion of doing so.

    Police have no good reason to stop me for merely OCing. If they do, I feel they should be fully educated as to what my rights are.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    bossbart wrote:
    in mi. if stoped by police while oc,ing and police ask to see i.d. are u required by law to show i.d. or to just give your name
    You do not have to provide ID to a Michigan LEO if stopped only for open carry on foot in a public of private property that allows firearms. If you are driving a vehicle or just stepping out of a vehicle then you have to show that you have a license to drive that vehicle.

    Having said that a sharp officer could make up a "legitimate" reason for stopping you besides the open carry. for example if you fit the description of a recent suspect, were acting "strange" or appeared intoxicated, jaywalked, or a variety of other excuses they might use them to stop you. That is why It's nice to have a voice recorder (cost about $30 or so) on you, or better yet a witness with a video camera to record the initial reason they stopped you. Be sure to ask the officer and get him to admit the initial reason he is stopping you is for the open carry of the firearm. As the confrontation continues he may think of other reasons or call in for help on other reasons (disturbing the peace, brandishing, etc) for stopping you, but if the primary reason was for open carry it's not a legal stop.

    Be polite, but strong and fearless, don't let them intimidate you. Explain that it is legal to open carry and that it is not a reason for detainment, and that you are acting within your rights, say little more than that, don't argue, and if they arrest you, so be it, you will have a good case for civil action.

    As an aside, I don't know of any cases that have been prosecuted in Michigan for lawful open carry, arrests, yes, but not a successful prosecution.

    SO Bossbart you are free to carry even in Wayne County. I suggest you meet with us on our next open carry outing. We will be planning something in the metro area this spring. Keep checking back for details. Also check out some of the get together posts on the Michigan page.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    bossbart wrote:
    in mi. if stoped by police while oc,ing and police ask to see i.d. are u required by law to show i.d. or to just give your name

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0941--,00.html


    This only pertains to those with a CPL.

    Only if the gun is carried concealed, if open carried the officer knows you are armed and you do not have to show him your ID or your CPL. A CPL is NOT needed to open carry. Therefore a person could open carry without any form of ID, whether you have a CPL or not..
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    One problem with some reported ID checks of people on foot is that they allegedly turn into long drawn out affaiurs where guns are confiscated, serial numbers run, officers editorializing, etc.

    Just b/c you are carying a gun openly on foot, as in MI and most states, does not give officers power to stop uyou, demand ID, run background checks, etc.

    I have never had this happen to me, despite OCing in many states and sometimes in front of LEOs.

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    Venator wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    bossbart wrote:
    in mi. if stoped by police while oc,ing and police ask to see i.d. are u required by law to show i.d. or to just give your name

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0941--,00.html


    This only pertains to those with a CPL.

    Only if the gun is carried concealed, if open carried the officer knows you are armed and you do not have to show him your ID or your CPL. A CPL is NOT needed to open carry. Therefore a person could open carry without any form of ID, whether you have a CPL or not..
    I agree.I was just citing the requirement to ID which only pertained to those carrying concealed, with CPL

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    OK so despite all the Sarcasm here who among us have never heard of 'Provable cause"?

    Any refusal can be assumed as an admission of guilt and now you are under a form of arrest and when he ask the second time and you try to give them grief you are going to go to jail.

    Isn't it a whole lot easer to say, I forgot my wallet, or just comply, why are you afraid to ID? The only time you refuse is when asked if it is OK to search you or your vehicle, then you reply with "As soon as I call my lawyer and he gets here" will usually put the kibosh to that idea.

    Old guy here, been around a bit, been part of a heap of legal discussions, know a heap of Police chiefs and Prosecutors, grass roots stuff, and know all my reps on a first name basis, so basically BTDT.

    Oh one more thing... doesn't this small print bug anyone else?



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    Have never heard of "Provable cause" Is that anything like probable cause?

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    Sheldon wrote:
    OK so despite all the Sarcasm here who among us have never heard of 'Provable cause"?

    Any refusal can be assumed as an admission of guilt and now you are under a form of arrest and when he ask the second time and you try to give them grief you are going to go to jail.

    Isn't it a whole lot easer to say, I forgot my wallet, or just comply, why are you afraid to ID? The only time you refuse is when asked if it is OK to search you or your vehicle, then you reply with "As soon as I call my lawyer and he gets here" will usually put the kibosh to that idea.

    Old guy here, been around a bit, been part of a heap of legal discussions, know a heap of Police chiefs and Prosecutors, grass roots stuff, and know all my reps on a first name basis, so basically BTDT.

    Oh one more thing... doesn't this small print bug anyone else?





    Sheldon, what sarcasm? And, I know you meant Probable Cause.

    I believe this thread has been nothing less than an intelligent, fact-based (mostly)conversation of legally when, how, why, etc. to ID when OCing.

    Probable Cause: When walking down the sidewalk and dispatch sends out a BOL on a subject in which you fit the description...probable cause.

    Not Probable Cause: When you are walking down the sidewalk and there is no reason to believe a crime has been or will be committed...not probable cause.

    We, are not afraid to ID, it'sthe principle of it...how many moreRights do you want the government to take away from us.

    And no, refusal to ID is not automatically "admission of guilt", inand of itself.

    Please provide an example of your "admission of guilt"...on foot, driving (CPL required, of course), etc.? Please be specific so others "here" may address your views.


    Edit to add:

    Sorry Sheldon if my reply seems a bit venomous, it is not meant to be so. I believed you when you said you know those people (Chiefs & Prosecutors), I'm just not sure where you and those people are getting the information.

    This is the only reason I asked you to provide an example.




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    Sheldon wrote:
    Any refusal can be assumed as an admission of guilt and now you are under a form of arrest and when he ask the second time and you try to give them grief you are going to go to jail.
    Springer was being nice, so I'm just gonna come out and say it. You're full of crap. Refusing to present ID is NOT an admission of ANYTHING. Before "probably cause" comes into play, there's that thing called "reasonable articulable suspicion(RAS)", aka a reason to stop and detain someone in the first place. If a cop stops you just for carrying a gun, he doesn't have the RAS to stop you in the first place, and has no business seeing your ID.

    Please stop giving out false information.

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