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OPEN CARRY VS. CONCEALED CARRY

Big Gay Al

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fullauto223cal wrote:
Sonora Rebel, your right in what you said about limiting my choices.

It was explained to me like this. Except for not being able to open carry, the Captain I asked said that my HCP permit allowed me to carry any weapon or ammo I liked. The problem is that if I used a non-department registered weapon then I would be on my own legally + I cannot use a non-department registered weapon in any law enforcement capacity.

I already carry what my Department issues (Golden Sabre) and the only pistols I own are Glocks which are Department approved. In fact, I'm going to have test bullets taken from my two off duty guns tomorrow so I can start carrying them.

It's not a big deal to me but I still plan to keep my HCP on principle.
Golden Sabre is a good choice. And for the issue of insurance, sort of, I'd probably go with Dept. issue/registered myself, if I was in your shoes.
 

Sonora Rebel

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fullauto223cal wrote:
Sonora Rebel, your right in what you said about limiting my choices.

It was explained to me like this. Except for not being able to open carry, the Captain I asked said that my HCP permit allowed me to carry any weapon or ammo I liked. The problem is that if I used a non-department registered weapon then I would be on my own legally + I cannot use a non-department registered weapon in any law enforcement capacity.

I already carry what my Department issues (Golden Sabre) and the only pistols I own are Glocks which are Department approved. In fact, I'm going to have test bullets taken from my two off duty guns tomorrow so I can start carrying them.

It's not a big deal to me but I still plan to keep my HCP on principle.

You have more latitude than I did. We were limited to 156 gr. semi-wadcutter .38 spl. Guns were limited to Colt, S&W or Charter Arms... period! The issue piece was a S&W Mod 10, 6" bull barrel (hard to conceal) so I carried a S&W Mod 36. The surrounding departments already carried 9's... but we were limited to antiques. As it was... I used it twice (one on one) and another time inna mass shoot-out with a barricaded nutcase that killed one cop 'n wounded 4-5 others. He had a K98 Mauser rifle... and a shotgun.
 

fullauto223cal

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WOW, Rebel I hope I never get stuck in that kind of situation. We are a small department but we do have a full time TACT TEAM who carry the infamous Glock-18 (FULL AUTO) while on duty. Each patrolman has a personal AR-15 issued to them by the department encase a situation like you describes happens.

I use to shun the shotgun due to it's limited ammo capacity and slow rate of fire when compared to a rifle, but then I began to think that most shootouts with police don't happen at 400yrds. Then I watched shootout videos where the cops were missing a hell of a lot of the rounds fired, one where the deputy was rushed and killed by the gunman. I started to see where a few well placed 00 Buck shots would have royally !@#@ UP the bad guy. Body armor, HA, a 12 Gauge slug at even intermediate range will penetrate it and/or cause great blunt force trauma.

I better stop now or I'll get off on a rant that will fill up a whole page.

NOTE: I haven't seen Mr. Dogg or 50 BMG since I answered them, oh well two more bite the dust!! LOL!
 

Sonora Rebel

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fullauto223cal wrote:
WOW, Rebel I hope I never get stuck in that kind of situation. We are a small department but we do have a full time TACT TEAM who carry the infamous Glock-18 (FULL AUTO) while on duty. Each patrolman has a personal AR-15 issued to them by the department encase a situation like you describes happens.

I use to shun the shotgun due to it's limited ammo capacity and slow rate of fire when compared to a rifle, but then I began to think that most shootouts with police don't happen at 400yrds. Then I watched shootout videos where the cops were missing a hell of a lot of the rounds fired, one where the deputy was rushed and killed by the gunman. I started to see where a few well placed 00 Buck shots would have royally !@#@ UP the bad guy. Body armor, HA, a 12 Gauge slug at even intermediate range will penetrate it and/or cause great blunt force trauma.

I better stop now or I'll get off on a rant that will fill up a whole page.

NOTE: I haven't seen Mr. Dogg or 50 BMG since I answered them, oh well two more bite the dust!! LOL!
I got into an abandoned house across the alley from the perp (behind him) up on the 2nd floor. I had the 12 ga... outta the trunk... slugs loaded. We still wore white shirts then... so I took off my reefer 'n put it on backward... got on top of a pile of rubble in front of a window. I'd thrown a big cardboard sheet over (from a box of some kind)... on top of the pile'n got prone. I was about 4' back from the window frame... so it wasa good 'hide'. I could see this dude move now 'n then (room to room). My backup was the 'wagon' man... who was doin' commo for me to the Tactical trailer about 2 blocks away. I had to 'ask permission' from the scene commander to take the shot. Denied (three times). He was a Colonel... I was a patrolman... WTF? I was maybe 30 yards range. Easy kill... but... That whole deal was FUBAR from the git-go. Politics!!! I was only 2 years outt'a the 'Nam... This 'Colonel' had no freakin' idea of a tactical shoot or deployment.

Tell ya what an 8mm Mauser FMJ can do... At about 30 yards... thru the A-pillar of the cruiser... thru the seats (front 'n back) 'n thru the trunklid 'n hit this officer just above the 'V" on his vest... in the clavical. 'Bout blew his throat out. Another... was aiming at the perp... Bullet hit him between the 2nd and 3rd knuckle of his gun hand... traversed his forearm 'n blew his elbow into the street. Bolt action rifle... No AK could'a done that.

Yeah... the 12 ga shotgun is the most effective anddeadly device yet devised for close combat. I've got 4 of 'em.Yer right... 'could fill up a page.
 

Dustin

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Here's the ballistics for the average 8mm FMJ;

Energy of 2,103 foot-pounds for a 170 grain bullet at 2360 fps.

That'sa hellacious amountof Punch Energy !



The AK47 7.62NATOrounds"lack" 700 to 800 ft. lbs. of energy. Usually scoring in the 1,500 range.
 

GLOCKMAN40

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fullauto223cal wrote:
[align=center]OPEN CARRY VS. CONCEALED CARRY[/align]
[align=center]Revision 1.24[/align]
[align=center]Written By: Garry E. Harvey
Contributing Editors: OpenCarry.org Members
[/align]
The purpose of this essay is to examine the two competing points of view within the handgun carry community and consider each one for its merits, both good and bad, from a common sense and logical point of view.


[align=center]INTRODUCTION[/align]
[align=center][suP]"AN ARMED SOCIETY IS A POLITE SOCIETY"[/suP][/align] Weapons and firearms in particular have been personified by many in recent decades as being evil and able to impart that evil into anyone who chooses to wield the weapon. In the anti-gun community, the only ones who appear to be immune from the gun's evil are those acting under the authority of government. It has been engrained into the minds of millions that ordinary citizens cannot and should not be trusted with the ability to use firearms for protection much less carry them into the public. Anyone who advocates such action is labeled evil, dangerous, or a vigilante. This line of thinking appears to be slowing eroding away as evidenced by the fall of the once prominent and powerful anti-gun lobby. The number of people choosing to carry a weapon for self protection has been growing steadily since the first laws were enacted. The cry of anarchy and blood running in the streets by the anti-gun lobby has proven false. As this has become more and more apparent, no thinks to the main stream media, the average citizen is beginning to change their minds over the issue. Criminals in an armed society know that their actions may garner them instant peril of death should they choose the wrong victim. That old saying still proves to be as true as it ever was, "An armed society is a polite society."
Carrying a pistol has been a part of my daily routine for going on four years. During that time I've taken almost every opportunity to speak with people from each end of the spectrum regarding the issue. Before I ever received my permit I remember part of a conversation I had with a party advocate for the Al Gore campaign in early 2000. Among the issues I posed to her during our conversation was that of Mr. Gore's support of gun control measures. She scoffed at me and snobbishly remarked that we didn't live in the Wild West. At the time I was not as well versed in the issue as I am now and really had no response although with her status I would have had more luck convincing a fence post otherwise. Over the next seven years I made it a point to broach the topic every chance I had with whomever I thought might have an interesting opinion on the matter. I researched the writing of the founding fathers and their predecessors with fervor. I studied the history of gun-control in America from the civil war forward, the rise of anti-gun organizations and those pro-gun organizations who rose in opposition to defend the Constitution. Having made my decision as to which side I was on I was surprised at the sometimes hateful opposition to carrying a firearm openly by members of the pro-gun rights community. It is for this reason I have undertaken to write this for everyone within that community. Before I delve into specifics let me state firstly that how one chooses to carry their weapon is their own choice and should not be subjected to harassment from others who disagree with that choice. My purpose is not to hold one method above the other but rather detail the benefits of both and leave it to the reader to decide for his or herself which they prefer.



[align=center]CONCEALED CARRY[/align]
[align=center][suP]THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE[/suP][/align] The most prominent reason given by proponents of carrying concealed is the element of surprise. There are many hypothetical situations which have been posed to prove this point but they all boil down to the CRIMINAL not being aware of the ARMED CITIZEN as anymore of a threat than the UNARMED CITIZEN. The result is that the ARMED CITIZEN may reserve the option to use deadly force until the situation is favorable or not, should the threat cease.
What are the negatives associated with this logic and why is it not perfect in all situations? Well, one must first assume they will not be the sole primary target but rather a third party or in a group setting. The element of surprise is quickly rendered null once you are at knife or gunpoint with nothing to distract your attacker. Assuming the attacker becomes distracted sufficiently enough to attempt a weapon draw the victim must consider the risk and added time needed to draw from a concealed location. If all factors are not in the victim’s favor then the attacker is likely to win as his weapon was already in the ready position.
Another reason given for favoring concealed carry is the fear or perceived risk of the weapon being taken by the CRIMINAL. In one of two versions the CRIMINAL takes the weapon after it has been drawn from the holster and pointed at him. This is commonly shown in movies where the CRIMINAL takes the gun as the ARMED CITIZEN is too afraid to shoot. Unless the attacker is suicidal or the firearm is incapable of firing for some reason, expect to see this situation stay in the movies. The second of the two concerns the CRIMINAL successfully taking the weapon from the holster before the ARMED CITIZEN can react. This has happened to police officers and so it could happen to the ARMED CITIZEN as well but consider this following difference. In all but a minority of cases, the CRIMINAL took the officer's weapon once being confronted by the officer or while being placed under arrest. The act was one of desperation as the reward of escape outweighed the risk of taking the weapon from the officer. Assuming the weapon is properly holstered in a professional manner, the ARMED CITIZEN would only pose a threat to the CRIMINAL within a self-defense situation; the risk to the CRIMINAL would be overwhelming in attempting to steal the weapon as this act would trigger the self defense reaction from the ARMED CITIZEN.
Another less logical reason for not carrying openly is that one does not want to appear to be "looking for trouble." This line of thought seems to have evolved from the anti-gun accusation that everyone who carries a weapon is looking for a fight. The illogical hypothetical given for example tends to go as follows. The CRIMINAL sees the ARMED CITIZEN carrying a weapon and for no logical reason chooses to confront the ARMED CITIZEN and instigate a fight which inevitably ends with the CRIMINAL winning. Upon close scrutiny the reason and the hypothetical posed do not match up. First, why would the CRIMINAL want to fight an armed opponent for no reason? The CRIMINAL would have to lack any kind of judgment, have no fear of death and believe he is the fastest shooter on earth, not to mention invincible to bullets. Finally, how exactly is the ARMED CITIZEN the one "looking for trouble" when the CRIMINAL prompted the confrontation? Was it not the CRIMINAL "looking for trouble" by targeting the ARMED CITIZEN and pushing him into a self defense situation? This line of thinking is similar to accusing a rape victim of wanting to be raped because she was supposedly dressed provocatively.
Although there are other reasons I've been given for carrying concealed, the ones discussed have been some of the most prevalent; of the three only two hold some historical basis for concern but the last one falls apart upon a logical evaluation. The real reason for concealment has less to do with a tactical advantage, I think, and more to do with a social advantage. If the ARMED CITIZEN thinks he would be better served in a temporary social environment to have his weapon concealed then by all means do so. An example might be that you're shopping at a local mall owned and operated by big city politically correct hacks that are obviously anti-gun. If you know they'll ask you to leave their property should they become aware of you exercising your rights, it would be understandable to conceal it from their view; that is if you have to shop there. Maybe you're going to church and you don't want to draw attention from the preacher and his sermon. Bottom line, you should conceal when you think it is reasonable and serves a nobler purpose, not because someone pressured you.



[align=center]THE CASE FOR OPEN CARRY[/align]
[align=center][suP]BEWARE OF DOG/GUN[/suP][/align] A sign, be it text, picture, or symbol, is something visual which communicates a clear message to the observer. The observer can choose to disregard the sign but nonetheless they are forced to consider the message before proceeding. Examples of signs conveying an important message would be "BEWARE OF DOG", "NO SMOKING", "EMERGENCY EXIT", or the more ominous "DEADLY FORCE AUTHORIZED". Each sign aids the observer in any potential decision making. Of course, the observer may choose to ignore the warning but this choice will be made based on whether the potential reward outweighs the risk.
The case for open carry is simple. I would submit that in much the same way that a sign works, when the ARMED CITIZEN carries his weapon in the open it communicates a clear message to any observer. To an observer who has no intention of causing harm or using illegal force the sign should be meaningless. However, when the CRIMINAL observes this same sign he must reconsider whether the potential reward outweighs the risk. Where the risk was simply being caught or having to physically overpower the UNARMED CITIZEN it now suddenly rises to potentially enduring great pain and death when confronting the ARMED CITIZEN. Do insane or even desperate CRIMINALS exist who would disregard such an obvious sign and follow through with an attack? As with any possibility the answer is YES but even though they exist their actions do not support the opposing view that open carry should be avoided. They can still be potentially stopped by the ARMED CITIZEN once he becomes aware of the CRIMINALS intent to present a lethal threat.
With regard to the element of surprise discussed earlier, open carry actually supersedes the need for surprise. If carrying openly causes the CRIMINAL to avoid you and those around you as his victims then the need for surprise is negated. Your display of an ability to employ deadly force has avoided the confrontation before it even began, avoided the threat to your life and having to actually use your weapon. As the CRIMINAL moves on to easier prey you will likely never be aware it even happened.



[align=center]CONCLUSION[/align]
[align=center][suP]THE REAL PROBLEM WITH OPEN CARRY[/suP][/align] What is the real reason some shy from open carry? I believe it to be fear; the anxiety of having to confront someone hostile to their choice to carry a weapon for personal defense. As a pro-carry activist I welcome it but I can understand where a large section of armed citizens do not. Are there times when it is expedient to conceal your sidearm, definitely! Should you feel ashamed to carry it openly, NO! Hundreds of thousands of people have fought state after state to pass legislation to restore that right which was once only granted at the behest of local law enforcement.
Anti-gun hacks claim to have a right to "feel safe." This non-existent right has been twisted from the right to "be secure in one's person and effects" a right I exercise whenever I carry my weapon. The anti-gun crowd has the twisted perception that the weapon and not the criminal is the threat. They will and have called the police to harass the ARMED CITIZEN; I advise you show your permit and carry on. They may card you as many times as they wish as I long as you know you are legal nothing they do should stop you from carrying openly.
We, the pro-carry citizens, have to stop criticizing each other. We have to stop playing footsy with the politically correct crowd and stick together. Public opinion can be swayed in our favor if we as law abiding citizens can show through open carry that we are safe, caring individuals whose only want is to be able to defend our family and ourselves from needless victimization. Ben Franklin said it best when he explained that "the very fame of our strength and readiness would be a means of discouraging our enemies; for tis a wise and true saying that one sword often keeps the other in the scabbard. The way to secure peace is to be prepared for war. Those who are on the guard and appear ready to receive their adversaries are in much less danger of attack than the secure, the supine, and the negligent."


2007, Garry Harvey. This essay may be reproduced with the condition that it be kept in its entirety and cited accordingly.
:lol:Great essay, I love this , it hits where it needs to hit , i will be passing this on to every one i can , youwere right on the money with this :celebrate.
 

guyferg

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aw_geez.jpg
 

KSDeputy

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Very well said. I have not encountered anyone just carrying a firearm in the open. Most cities had an ordinance against it (prior to KS CCW law). Now they must be concealed due to the CCW law passage. I have encountered criminals with firearms, but openly carried only when they are committing a crime. I have not made up my mind as to how I feel about a citizen openly carrying a firearm, but it is illegal in many of the largest cities in the state due to city ordinances.

UPDATE, while it is presently legal to open carry in Topeka the city council is trying to change that. They have support from the police chief and I believe the DA. If you want to keep open carry legal in Topeka you should be joining those against the change. They are outside the city council chambers while meetings are going on. I do not know the name of the point man on this, but I believe I read his name in the Topeka paper. Check http://www.cjonline.com and search for stories about changing open carry in Topeka. :(
 

Big Gay Al

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KSDeputy wrote:
Very well said. I have not encountered anyone just carrying a firearm in the open. Most cities had an ordinance against it (prior to KS CCW law). Now they must be concealed due to the CCW law passage. I have encountered criminals with firearms, but openly carried only when they are committing a crime. I have not made up my mind as to how I feel about a citizen openly carrying a firearm.
odd, that's not what the section on Kansas says.
 

Sonora Rebel

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KSDeputy wrote:
Very well said. I have not encountered anyone just carrying a firearm in the open. Most cities had an ordinance against it (prior to KS CCW law). Now they must be concealed due to the CCW law passage. I have encountered criminals with firearms, but openly carried only when they are committing a crime. I have not made up my mind as to how I feel about a citizen openly carrying a firearm.

Don't come to Arizona... you'll have a coronary. Any 'law' or 'ordinance' against the right to bear arms openly, as the founding fathers intended is a blatent violation of a Civil Right as enumerated in the US Constitution. (The one you took an oath to support and defend.) Not an imaginary 'right'... but one enumerated in the US Constitution. As for the 10A argument... that dog won't hunt. The states agreed to abide by the articles of the Constitution as written and ratified in 1783. 10A doesn't address any of the other Amendments already agreed upon. All this CCW... permit, license extra-legalese crap is 'clutter'.

The 2A recognizes the Right to bear arms. Rights are not granted by government. Rights are not sold under permit by government. Bearing arms means to carry. There is no caveat as to 'mode' of carry in the 2A. As a cop your not some extra-citizen... you're a civilian like the rest of us. The only authority you have to carry a weapon is the one you were born with. The right to self defense. (Read the 2A) I was a cop... so don't peg me as an anti. You're forced to lick the hands that sign your paycheck... but to do so against the Right to bear arms whenborne responsibly is in the support of tyranny and a violation of your oath. What say you?
 

Grapeshot

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KSDeputy wrote:
Very well said. I have not encountered anyone just carrying a firearm in the open. Most cities had an ordinance against it (prior to KS CCW law). Now they must be concealed due to the CCW law passage. I have encountered criminals with firearms, but openly carried only when they are committing a crime. I have not made up my mind as to how I feel about a citizen openly carrying a firearm.
Have never seen a BG open carry. Have seen more than a few of them brandishing or actively shooting though.

OC (open carry) is a passive, none threatening, none aggressive method of carrying - holstered and visible. BGs just don't do that for a number of reasons.

If you ever get east, stop in Richmond, Va. we'll take you on a tour and show you just how uneventful OC can be. :) In fact if we stop to eat in a nice restaurant where alcohol happens to be served, OC is the only legal method of carry.

Yata hey
 

oldkim

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KSDeputy,

I'm assuming you are a sworn LEO of some sort.

If it's legal.... what is there for you to say? Of course, all taking into consideration of your location, local/state laws, etc.
 

spioi

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when ppl see me OCing they tell me it shouldn't be necessary because you can get a permit to CC. or the 2A doesen't say anything about having the right to carry a firearm. PPL do it to show off or look for a fight. I do it because it's more comfortable in summer.ppl should know I'm not a crimminal because they would hide theirs.
 

Sonora Rebel

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spioi wrote:
when ppl see me OCing they tell me it shouldn't be necessary because you can get a permit to CC. or the 2A doesen't say anything about having the right to carry a firearm. PPL do it to show off or look for a fight. I do it because it's more comfortable in summer.ppl should know I'm not a crimminal because they would hide theirs.

What part of '...Bear Arms' eludes them? I know... I've heard the same twit prattle ad nauseum.

I have a CWP... It's been running 108ish here the past month... The only place I'd have to 'hide' a 1911-A1 would hurt like hell if I sat down. 'Look for a fight' is the direct opposite effect of OC. It deters any thoughts of a fight.
 

45acpForMe

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Sonora Rebel wrote:
What part of '...Bear Arms' eludes them?
I joined the NRA, OCDO, VCDL to help support the 2A. I find it bullshit (as Penn&Teller say) to restrict type of weapons (class III) or mode of carry (OC/CC/permit-needed).

American politicians are supposed to fear the people (literally) so that they do the peoples will (within restraints of the constitutional republic, not mob rule). If politicians ever de-fang the populous shit happens. Look at Germany, Russia, China for the millions eliminated in the last century.

With that said the constitution restricts powers of the federal govt and states that all other powers are given to the states and the people (as long as the don't contradict the constitution). Since "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." seems to be to darn complicated for the govt to understand all we can do is keep fighting the good fight to restore what is right. This is a local community, state and federal fight.

As far as OC vs CC I prefer both. If nothing else OC allows education of the public when they talk to you. People have forgotten their rights and Washington will deceive (false statistics and false arguments) if allowed to get away with it. Evil is afoot. Lock -n- Load.
 

Andrew065

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" "IF" carrying openly causes the CRIMINAL to avoid you and those around you as his victims then the need for surprise is negated."

Based on a premise that requires the potential adversary to decide the outcome of events...

While I do concur that your basic premise of the fullest appication of the 2A should be completely acceptable, we must really focus onactual outcomes and defend ourselves accordingly. Atdeer camp, on private proterty etc, open carry is completely without disagreement from me. However, on the street, in the public square in most locales around the country, open cary for self-defense is plainly an advertisement tofour undesirable demographs, first, the sheeple whorun at the sight of arms, two,anti's who will tie you up with frivoulous calls to 911 (and they lie like the theives they are!) thridly, LEOs who will of their own accord respond to you as a potential threat, and lastly, but for this response, the most pertinent-the criminals who will not be swayed by your stated assumption-they will target you as a threat to their efforts-especially if you happen to be in their way during the execution of a crime, or just out of plain rabid hatred of sheep dogs.

I conceal, I do not want anyone to know what I am capable of, just as I do not pin my cash to my shirt. My armed respnse should a total surprise to any lethal threat.



Best;



Andrew
 

Grapeshot

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Andrew065 wrote:
" "IF" carrying openly causes the CRIMINAL to avoid you and those around you as his victims then the need for surprise is negated."

Based on a premise that requires the potential adversary to decide the outcome of events...

While I do concur that your basic premise of the fullest appication of the 2A should be completely acceptable, we must really focus onactual outcomes and defend ourselves accordingly. Atdeer camp, on private proterty etc, open carry is completely without disagreement from me. However, on the street, in the public square in most locales around the country, open cary for self-defense is plainly an advertisement tofour undesirable demographs, first, the sheeple whorun at the sight of arms, two,anti's who will tie you up with frivoulous calls to 911 (and they lie like the theives they are!) thridly, LEOs who will of their own accord respond to you as a potential threat, and lastly, but for this response, the most pertinent-the criminals who will not be swayed by your stated assumption-they will target you as a threat to their efforts-especially if you happen to be in their way during the execution of a crime, or just out of plain rabid hatred of sheep dogs.

I conceal, I do not want anyone to know what I am capable of, just as I do not pin my cash to my shirt. My armed respnse should a total surprise to any lethal threat.

Best;

Andrew

I'll start with welcome to OCDO, suggest that you add at least your state to your profile as it effects responses frequently and close by inviting you to stay a spell and let us get to know you. Very opinionated first post, but you're entitled.

Don't really care what your objections are towards OC - heard 'em all before and they're pretty much baseless in Va.

You analogy about money pinned to your shirt is funny though. Exposed money = might equal an invitation to robbery. Somehow my 1911 (w/o ammo pinned to my shirt) seems to work as a deterrent.

Yata hey
 
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