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Thread: Signs in WV

  1. #1
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    I read in the pamphlet from handgunlaw.us that in WV you must abide by signs that say "No Guns" on businesses.

    This is new to me in PA. I may be spending some time in WV and I wanted to get my laws straight.



    So my question is, is there any law on how the sign has to be placed? Certain size, color, or verbage?



    I know in Texas the sign has to be a specific size and wording to be considered legal.

  2. #2
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    W.Va. Code §61-7-14 allows notice to be given in any form. However, "no guns" signs or verbal orders, which are rare in this state, do not carry the weight of law. Rather, if you are caught violating the gun ban, you must leave the premises or disarm. However, the "opportunity cure" does not apply to an employer's ability to fire an employee or a state institution of higher education'sability to expel a student.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

  3. #3
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    WVCDL wrote:
    W.Va. Code §61-7-14 allows notice to be given in any form. However, "no guns" signs or verbal orders, which are rare in this state, do not carry the weight of law. Rather, if you are caught violating the gun ban, you must leave the premises or disarm. However, the "opportunity cure" does not apply to an employer's ability to fire an employee or a state institution of higher education'sability to expel a student.
    What he said.

    Signs in WV carry no wieght.

  4. #4
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    Oh ok. So it's the same as PA then, if told to leave you have to but otherwise your fine.



    If you don't leave is it tresspassing, just like PA?



    I guess I should not have believed the Sherrif's pamphlet as being law.



    Thanks, I think I'll like travelling to WV.

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    If you walk into a business or any private property in WV with a visible firearm, and if asked by the business or property owners to leave or be disarmed in order to stay you must comply. You may have the rite to bear arms, and your area of the state may allow open carry, but those rites are gone once you step on to private properties. Signs can be posted by business owners, and private property owners. They have every right to refuse any person access who is carrying a weapon.

    People often make a mistake with personal rites such as the 2nd ammend. 1st ammend, and so on. First ammend is always mis-used. Your 1st ammend rights don't mean jack squat once you step onto private properties. You're protected in public forum, and not private property. Meaning you can't hold a freedom march on someone's front lawn against their wishes and then claim1st ammend. Same thing goes for firearms. You can't step on to private property and claim your rites under the 2nd ammend. You're actually violating the rites of the property owner.

    I've been noticing more signs however going up in places.

  7. #7
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    §61-7-14. Right of certain persons to limit possession of firearms on premises.
    Notwithstanding the provisions of this article, any owner, lessee or other person charged with the care, custody and control of real property may prohibit the carrying openly or concealed of any firearm or deadly weapon on property under his or her domain: Provided, That for purposes of this section "person" means an individual or any entity which may acquire title to real property.
    Any person carrying or possessing a firearm or other deadly weapon on the property of another who refuses to temporarily relinquish possession of such firearm or other deadly weapon, upon being requested to do so, or to leave such premises, while in possession of such firearm or other deadly weapon, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than one thousand dollars or confined in the county jail not more than six months, or both: Provided, That the provisions of this section shall not apply to those persons set forth in subsections (3) through (6) of section six of this code while such persons are acting in an official capacity: Provided, however, That under no circumstances may any person possess or carry or cause the possession or carrying of any firearm or other deadly weapon on the premises of any primary or secondary educational facility in this state unless such person is a law-enforcement officer or he or she has the express written permission of the county school superintendent.

    Also remember If convicted of this you can lose your CC permit and be denied one in the future. Its all up to the county sheriff.

    She may not be pertty but she does have teeth

  8. #8
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    The key phrase there is:



    "Any person carrying or possessing a firearm or other deadly weapon on the property of another who refuses to temporarily relinquish possession of such firearm or other deadly weapon, upon being requested to do so, or to leave such premises..."



    Unless you act like a fool and refuse to leave you have no problem.

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    Agent6-3/8 wrote:
    The key phrase there is:



    "Any person carrying or possessing a firearm or other deadly weapon on the property of another who refuses to temporarily relinquish possession of such firearm or other deadly weapon, upon being requested to do so, or to leave such premises..."



    Unless you act like a fool and refuse to leave you have no problem.
    Very True..

    But I disagree with WVCDL and you about signs.

    If there is no sign and you are told to leave and you comply, no violation.

    If there is a sign posted saying weapons are prohibited, it is the same as someone who has care and custody of the property / premises telling you to leave or do not enter while armed, If you continue to enter the premises / property while armed you have violated 61-7-14 by refusing to leave.

    So walking into a place that has a sign posted and thinking you're safe till someone comes up and tells you to leave is not a good idea.


    Please don't get me wrongIDO NOTsupport weapons being prohibited in any PUBLIC location. but I do support a persons rightto prohibit weapons in his/her private residence and property and I believe that 61-7-14 should be rewritten to reflect this.

  10. #10
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    Sorry to bump a topic more than month old, but I didn't see any responses to wvguy on the last post and I just have to play everyone's favorite game - devil's advocate.

    Assuming what you said is true, and ignoring the sign is criminal trespass, if the sign is written in English, and I don't read or speak English, have I violated the law? Granted, the property owner needn't speak my language to tell me to GTFU...so what if I speak English but can't read? Or I'm just distracted and don't notice the sign? Or I misread the sign? Or I'm blind?

    To patronize a business, I am not required to first know its policies. I am expected to obey them or leave only after explicitly informed of them. I do not believe a sign on the door should qualify as explicit notification. If it is, how large should the print be? Should the colors be high-contrast? Should it be posted on the door at eye-level, or is the bottom corner of the window next to the Visa/Mastercard logo OK? See my point?

    And I absolutely agree that a private property owner may set whatever restrictions he so desires, but aren't there limitations on what he is allowed to restrict? An employer isn't allowed to write a policy saying "No Women" or "No Jews". My company says I can't do drugs, I can't fight, I can't access computer files unrelated to my job... But all of these are also crimes, and companies may absolutely refuse employment to criminals.

    If "No Women" is sexual harassment and "No Jews" is religious harassment, isn't "No Guns" harrassment based on political affiliation? If I am forbidden to put a poster of Jesus on the wall of my office, but free to wear a cross around my neck, should I not be equally free to wear a (legal) weapon, even if I am prohibited from storing it in my desk?

    I guess that's more related to employment, not patronage....So is a business allowed to say "No gay customers"? I suppose technically they are, though they're likely to be the target of repeated vandalism, and even more likely to be avoided by most customers.

    So, anyone know of any precedents in WV or anywhere that a posted sign is sufficient?

    Now that I'm editing my post, I just realized that in fact, if I own a parcel of land, I should not be required to erect a sign prohibiting trespassers. So in my mind, that's a good argument against my point. OTOH though, there is no reason for visitors on my land, whereas a store wants customers to visit their property, and people have a reasonable expectation that when a store is open for business, they are not trespassing by patronizing it without prior permission from the owner.

    Tim

  11. #11
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    THATS WHY I'M AFRAID TO OPEN CARRY IN SOME PLACES BECAUSE I KNOW IF I TRIED, THEY COULD JUST PUT UP A SIGN AND STOP IT FOR EVERYONE.

  12. #12
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    Tim -

    All good points. One of the weak points of the WV weapons law is that unlike many other states there is nothing in the code that said's a sign has to be a certain size, shape, colors, design, or placement.


    "If the sign is written in English, and I don't read or speak English"

    As for not being able to read or a sign written in a language you can not read I believe that would be covered under "Intent" You have to have the intent to committhe violation and simply explaining the situation most likelywill resolve it.

    "I absolutely agree that a private property owner may set whatever restrictions he so desires, but aren't there limitations on what he is allowed to restrict?"

    This is a matter of PUBLIC v. PRIVATE property. PUBLIC business or property for PUBLIC use is held to a different standard then PRIVATE property. To restate what I said in the other post. I DO NOT support weapons being prohibited in any PUBLIC location. but I do support a persons right to prohibit weapons in his/her PRIVATE residence and property and I believe that 61-7-14 should be rewritten to reflect this.

    "I just realized that in fact, if I own a parcel of land, I should not be required to erect a sign prohibiting trespassers"

    A little off topic but thats another funny thing about WV Law. a NO TRESPASS sign is really worthless. You have to be verbally told by Law Enforcement or by the Land owner in the presence of Law Enforcement before you can be charged with Trespassing


    In the end it will all come down to the Officer, the Prosecutor's office and the sheriff. If the Officer as a good head on his/her shoulders and you aren't being an ass most likely it will end there. if it makes it to the prosecuting attorney Just hope he isn't up for reelection and needing to make headlines (just ask that team from Duke University) and the sheriff can deny your permit for any reason they feel and your only recourse is the file a civil action in Circuit court which most people wouldn't do because of the cost involved.




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