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Thread: I cant find the law!! Open Carry and Handcuffs?

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    Good Day,

    I was visiting the range yesterday and struck up a conversation with a guy after I noticed him with a shield on his belt. I didn't see any PD information on it and looking closer found that it was a "Concealed Carry Permit" shield...interesting I thought...next I thought, damn that guy is going to get in trouble...

    So I struck up a conversation with him in regards to why he chose to carry a shield (knockoff) he told me it was his defense in making old ladies and the like perceive him as a threat....I guess this could work out alright...ish.

    I told him that I had been talked to three times in a matter of a couple days OC'ing but that I decided to get a mag holder with a cuff holder as well and even though I saw his point of view thought it would be a safer way of 'signifying' I had a legitimate reason to be carrying to someone across the room then an actual badge look-alike.

    Forgive me, I may be wrong but the perception most people have to a badge and a set of cuffs is the same in my mind, but a look-alike badge might come of as attempting to impersonate, whereas a set of cuffs has multiple uses....you can ask my girlfriend what their real use is, at the same time I have not had another OC conversation since I started including this in my normal OC get up.

    So, to the opinions and LAWS - - - -

    The guy and a couple others working the counter told me that in Washington State it is illegal for me to carry handcuffs...but they told me it was not illegal to carry a CCW badge on you belt...to me that is an oxymoron...

    First off, I didn't think it was illegal to carry handcuffs, but I understand that during citizens arrest there could be a considerable amount of liability put on my shoulders if I chose to detain someone via cuffing them. I have been weighing my options on that as well I come across several scenarios in my head and these are the things I have considered:

    • If I have to draw my weapon on a BG it is going to be for a VERY good reason
    • If I have said weapon drawn when the cops finally show up ( I have waited up to two hours before when calling about a burglary in progress in Gig Harbor.) I do not want to be the one holding a gun on a guy that long, nor do I want to be the primary focus of incoming uniforms when they do show, I want the BG to be their focus.
    • If I have to draw my weapon on a BG do I really want to have to break my safe distance to cuff them so as to relinquish myself of the position stated above.
    • If when the cops do show up and I have detained and cuffed a BG instead of having a gun pointed at them will the officers fail to see the original cause of my detention.
    • What are my liabilities in detaining someone? I mean if the guy/gal ends up having radial nerve damage forever what is my liability to that, I hear about criminals continually winning disability cases against police after a heated arrest and detainment...
    There is so many at this point that the list could go on for a while so I will leave it there..

    So what I am asking because I have failed ot find the resources I need for a proper judgement is a clear understanding of any laws involving the carry of handcuffs. I don't want to put myself into a position of getting hauled in, but I cant find any RCW's strictly about this subject. I will say this however, since I have been carrying the handcuffs with me the number of steady looks has gone down to almost nothing, I have not been approached by anyone and have been OC'ing solid for three days. I have also been asked though by people what I do for a living, whether I am bail enforcement, or if I am secret agent even by a nice lady at the smoke shop I could attribute this to the fact that I am somewhat offsetting to be carrying around a pistol and cuffs...I have full arm sleeve tattoos and a shaved head, I guess they are just wondering why I am not LAPD <burn>

    Anyhow, thank you for all that take the time to read through my run-on sentence and offer something up for me !!

    ~Rook

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    I am not familiar with the laws of the State of Washington nor any desire to become so. I am familiar with the general principles of defensive weapons carry.

    The next action after presenting your weapon should be firing to deliver yourself from evil, else you had no common-law cause to draw your weapon.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    Founder's Club Member OC-Glock19's Avatar
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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    The next action after presenting your weapon should be firing to deliver yourself from evil, else you had no common-law cause to draw your weapon.
    I agree, Doug. I don't carry a gun to be a vigilante nor to protect the property or lives of anyone other than my immediate family. If I draw my gun it will be because I intend to use it.

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    If you ever need to draw your firearm, you have two choices, either point it safely at the ground in front of you (low ready), or shoot the perp. One or the other, period. Anything in between, or extra and you are very likely to find yourself in the slammer, and sued for all you own. In MI, brandishing is defined as pointing a firearm. One can be arested for pointing a firearm in self defense if said firearm is not discharged on perp. Prosecutor will say if you truly needed to point the gun, you would have fired it, and the fact that you are fine without shooting the perp testafies to the fact that you did not need to point a gun at the perp, and there fore recklessly endanger his life. You will be charged with assault, and brandishing. Shoot, or don't point. Nothing in between. And if you shoot, kill him dead so he can not sue you for using hollow points and causing undue harm.

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    If you ever need to draw your firearm, you have two choices, either point it safely at the ground in front of you (low ready), or shoot the perp. One or the other, period. Anything in between, or extra and you are very likely to find yourself in the slammer, and sued for all you own. In MI, brandishing is defined as pointing a firearm. One can be arested for pointing a firearm in self defense if said firearm is not discharged on perp. Prosecutor will say if you truly needed to point the gun, you would have fired it, and the fact that you are fine without shooting the perp testafies to the fact that you did not need to point a gun at the perp, and there fore recklessly endanger his life. You will be charged with assault, and brandishing. Shoot, or don't point. Nothing in between. And if you shoot, kill him dead so he can not sue you for using hollow points and causing undue harm.

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    Rook,

    You may legally carry handcuffs in Wa. State. It sounds like you are only doing so to prevent some grief from citizens however. Obviously by carrying them you are at least trying to infer that you may be LE, or have some other "official capacity".

    Nothing illegal in that, as long as you don't make any claims to be LE, if asked. One may also display a cpl "badge" on their belt, but this is probably not the best idea, as badge, cuffs, and gun usually = cop, and you would be getting closer to impersonating an Officer.

    As far as cuffing a suspect, you better know what you're doing and how to do it safely, or you may have a fiasco on your hands. Remember, you don't cuff with your gun in your hands, and if the person starts to fight, you need to know control/cuffing techniques, and handgun retention (he may make a gun grab) as well. If you harm the person during a struggle or cuffing, you will likely be sued, and lose. You also need to know for sure that you have grounds to be detaining/cuffing in the first place.

    Pointing a gun at a suspect, and holding them at gunpoint is perfectly acceptable, but you must know ahead of time if you can or can't shoot this person. Lets say you point your gun at a suspect buthe's not shootable, and decides to get up and run away, what are you going to do?

    You can adhere to the ruleas Doug Huffman states,but there may well be atime when holding someone at gunpoint is proper, but shooting them definetly isn't.

    As an OfficerI have held hundreds of people at gunpoint. Some were shootable, most were not. The personat the business end of my gun is not privy to that info at the time however, nor do I want them to be.

    The determing factor should be; is it reasonable (as a citizen) to point my gun at someone based on the situation at hand. If not, you may well be sued or charged with assault 1', intimidation with a weapon, or reckless endangerment.

    With carrying your gun comes the responsibility of knowing when to use it, and acting properly, and reasonably.

    Last but not least, responding Officers may not know who is the gg or bg, but if you are holding a gun, it is very likely that you will be the sight picture of the Officer's guns until the situation is sorted out.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Personally I think that people that carry the "CCW badges" and openly carry handcuffs are trying to live out their fantasty of being a police officer and give gun carriers a black eye. Infact, I think openly carrying handcuffs are a bit extreme personally. You are carrying a firearm as a private citizen, you shouldn't ever detain somebody. There are too many legal ramifications that can be put onto you after the matter. Either you use your firearm in self defense, or you don't. And if you should you call the police and tell them you have your firearm pointed ata suspect, I should expect they would be there with in five minutes. Detaining somebody believe it or not requires training, training which I do not think you most likely do not have. And even if you were to get it, why would you want to go out of your way to detain? If you're that worried about the safety of someone else carry some mace instead if you're looking for a less than lethal action.

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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    Regarding the argument that you must shoot if you draw: Bull. What if someone tries to mug you, whipping out a knife? You draw to protect yourself. He drops the knife or pockets it and turns tail and runs away. Waddaya gonna do; shoot him in the back?

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    I find the notion of cuffs and CCW badges, tacky and best, and a fantasy at worst. IIRC there was a thread about cuffs on the general subjects forum...

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    I understand you aplication of common sense, but unfortunately, the law doesn't usually apply such thought processes. I was arrested some years back for pointing a shotgun at a man who broke into my apartment building, and was trying to kick in someone else's apt door while shouting threats to his life. The Judge dropped the case because the man had a warrant for narcotics, but the city police pushed for my conviction for assault with a deadly weapon. Common sense won, but only because the judge is a good man. Had he been on the same power trip as the three cops who came to my house to arrest me, it would have ruined my life. Unfortunately, I was not the only one, these things happen more frequently than you hear. There are a small group of very active officers who will apply any law they can think of to "teach you a lesson" for defending yourself with a gun.

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    Dang, I thought the law protected armed intervention on behalf of a third party when you could reasonably belief their life was in danger?

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Dang, I thought the law protected armed intervention on behalf of a third party when you could reasonably belief their life was in danger?
    The law may only protect you from conviction, not prosecution.

    Remember that self-defense is an, what's the word? Affirmative defense? Meaning you have admitted to what is otherwise a crime. "I shot the bad guy...." is saying you done it. You may have to proveit wasself-defense/defense of another.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Dang, I thought the law protected armed intervention on behalf of a third party when you could reasonably belief their life was in danger?
    The law may only protect you from conviction, not prosecution.

    Remember that self-defense is an, what's the word? Affirmative defense? Meaning you have admitted to what is otherwise a crime. "I shot the bad guy...." is saying you done it. You may have to proveit wasself-defense/defense of another.
    Actually, in Washington:

    2) When a person charged with a crime listed in subsection (1) of this section is found not guilty by reason of self-defense, the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs, including loss of time, legal fees incurred, and other expenses involved in his or her defense. This reimbursement is not an independent cause of action. To award these reasonable costs the trier of fact must find that the defendant's claim of self-defense was sustained by a preponderance of the evidence. If the trier of fact makes a determination of self-defense, the judge shall determine the amount of the award.
    Clicky

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    Good Day, Well I dont want to come across as a gimp, nut-job, LEO-wanna-be, or a tacky POS. That is not my intention and in wearing handcuffs I really hope I am not being frowned upon by the OC legion.

    The only issue I am addressing is, if the handcuffs are illegal to carry and if I can get in trouble for wearing them. That has been answered and I appreciate it but I really dont like being pigeon-holed into a classification because of my choice.

    I find that I am a very level headed person and I work by the numbers. The reason behind me carrying handcuffs is because I saw a complete 180 regarding my open-carry after I decided to holster them. The difference was enough for me to warrant a pretty heavy impact on my attitude about going out OC.

    If people think I am acting in an offical capacity when I am out because of my cuffs then cool for them, I will never tell them I am LEO, I wont even go as far as some have told me while talking about it, telling people I am bail enforcement or a repo man, HA. I will simply state I am a free citizen, nough' said and leav it at that.

    If their peanut-sized brain wraps around that idea in enough time for them to call the police, so be it, I'll deal with that.

    Anyhow, I'm done...I will tell you though, if I draw my weapon on someone I will make the decision on whether or not I need to take a life, no one else can tell me what I need to do. I suggest that those of you who think pulling yourgunmeans IHAVE TO shoot shoud definetely take another shot at that one, think during snap-judgement moments are what get people in trouble, if someone is bearing down on me with a bat, knife, or other weapon I will shoot. If someone is bearing down on another person, I will tell them to stop or I will fire upon them...but just to pull the trigger is not very wise.

    BG's should pay for being what they are but...every story can have multiple endings, putting someone in a grave is not always the best choice. Putting them in jail might teach them to change their ways.

    whatever...blather, rolling off tongue now...I apologize...

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    I carry cuffs occassionally. When I do they are always in my pocket where nobody can see them, the other 90% of the time they are in my glovebox.

    Myself, I certainly wouldn't open carry them. However, I wouldn't look down on someone who does -- Basically if we look down on someone for doing something legal, aren't we just as bad as the pro-concealed carry folks, just to a different end?

    IF it is legal, then its legal, you may get some additional unwanted attention from LE.

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    To Doug Hoffman, OC-Glock19, and louismacote:

    Please know our laws in WA before making comments regarding whether it's alright to point a firearm at someone. In WA, as Johnny Law (who's an LEO) has said, it is perfectly legal to draw and point your gun at someone in self-defense. If that's all it takes to diffuse the situation, then everyone walks away from the situation and justice can be done.

    For instance, if someone is running at you with a knife in hand aggressively, I would expect you to draw your gun and point it... but if said person with a knife then stops, drops the knife and puts their hands in the air at seeing the gun pointed at them, how in the world do you justify pulling the trigger?

    It's called "Escalation of force"... I see "at the ready" and "pointed at" the two levels prior to "pulling the trigger".

    ---------

    As for carrying handcuffs or CPL badges, it's legal in WA, but I don't see it as prudent.

    Plus, it's actually a hinder to the OC cause of promoting the fact that OC is legal in WA by regular citizens. If you wear one, the other or both to make people think you might be LE, then you're only promoting the thought that only LE can OC. If you aren't ready to handle the fact that you might have to talk to people about OC, whether it be a random citizen, manager of a business, or an LEO, then you probably shouldn't be OC'ing, in my opinion. I see it like the test for teens: If you are too embarassed to go to the store and buy condoms, then you aren't ready to be having sex.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    just_a_car wrote:
    To Doug Hoffman, OC-Glock19, and louismacote:

    Please know our laws in WA before making comments regarding whether it's alright to point a firearm at someone. In WA, as Johnny Law (who's an LEO) has said, it is perfectly legal to draw and point your gun at someone in self-defense. If that's all it takes to diffuse the situation, then everyone walks away from the situation and justice can be done.

    For instance, if someone is running at you with a knife in hand aggressively, I would expect you to draw your gun and point it... but if said person with a knife then stops, drops the knife and puts their hands in the air at seeing the gun pointed at them, how in the world do you justify pulling the trigger?

    It's called "Escalation of force"... I see "at the ready" and "pointed at" the two levels prior to "pulling the trigger".

    ---------

    As for carrying handcuffs or CPL badges, it's legal in WA, but I don't see it as prudent.

    Plus, it's actually a hinder to the OC cause of promoting the fact that OC is legal in WA by regular citizens. If you wear one, the other or both to make people think you might be LE, then you're only promoting the thought that only LE can OC. If you aren't ready to handle the fact that you might have to talk to people about OC, whether it be a random citizen, manager of a business, or an LEO, then you probably shouldn't be OC'ing, in my opinion. I see it like the test for teens: If you are too embarassed to go to the store and buy condoms, then you aren't ready to be having sex.
    To add to the above, Washington State Law also states that it is only lawful to use only that amount of force necessary to stop the threat. If pulling the gun and pointing it stops the threat, and you go ahead and shoot anyway, you are wrong according to the statute. If you shoot once and the threat is ended, a "Coup de Grace" would definitely be out of order.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    just_a_car wrote:
    To Doug Hoffman, OC-Glock19, and louismacote:

    Please know our laws in WA before making comments regarding whether it's alright to point a firearm at someone. In WA, as Johnny Law (who's an LEO) has said, it is perfectly legal to draw and point your gun at someone in self-defense. If that's all it takes to diffuse the situation, then everyone walks away from the situation and justice can be done.

    For instance, if someone is running at you with a knife in hand aggressively, I would expect you to draw your gun and point it... but if said person with a knife then stops, drops the knife and puts their hands in the air at seeing the gun pointed at them, how in the world do you justify pulling the trigger?

    It's called "Escalation of force"... I see "at the ready" and "pointed at" the two levels prior to "pulling the trigger".

    ---------

    As for carrying handcuffs or CPL badges, it's legal in WA, but I don't see it as prudent.

    Plus, it's actually a hinder to the OC cause of promoting the fact that OC is legal in WA by regular citizens. If you wear one, the other or both to make people think you might be LE, then you're only promoting the thought that only LE can OC. If you aren't ready to handle the fact that you might have to talk to people about OC, whether it be a random citizen, manager of a business, or an LEO, then you probably shouldn't be OC'ing, in my opinion. I see it like the test for teens: If you are too embarassed to go to the store and buy condoms, then you aren't ready to be having sex.
    Well if you shot the guy, he's going to drop the knife anyway. /sarcasm

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    The carry of handcuffs are not illegal. Nor is the carry of one of those badges.

    A better option is to carry a medium zip tie looped behind your belt. Light, easy, works better than the cloth loop type temp cuffs.

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    Well Rook, Jonny L. and Morris have both answered your question definitively. It is perfectly legal to carry a set of handcuffs openly along side your openly carried gun. And if it acts to pacify potential troublemakers ( The anti OC lot ) then I think it may be a good Idea. As JL said as long as you don't go around telling people you are LE or anything like that you are perfectly fine and anything that is legal based on the freedoms of this country should not be looked down on by anyone, especially any of us who enjoy these freedoms so much. I say carry your handcuffs, carry your guns and even carry one of those little badges if you will, and more power to you.

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    If someone asks, just say that you like kinky sex. :P

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    Jered wrote:
    If someone asks, just say that you like kinky sex. :P
    Excellent Twist ! I'll use that and let you all know what types of responses I get

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    Agent 47 wrote:
    Well Rook, Jonny L. and Morris have both answered your question definitively. It is perfectly legal to carry a set of handcuffs openly along side your openly carried gun. And if it acts to pacify potential troublemakers ( The anti OC lot ) then I think it may be a good Idea. As JL said as long as you don't go around telling people you are LE or anything like that you are perfectly fine and anything that is legal based on the freedoms of this country should not be looked down on by anyone, especially any of us who enjoy these freedoms so much. I say carry your handcuffs, carry your guns and even carry one of those little badges if you will, and more power to you.
    Not necessarily true, in WA you can get arrested if an officer has a reason to believe that you're trying to give the impression that you're an officer...

    WA has a VERY loose law when it comes to police impersonation....

    Hell, I have a radio (amateur radio operator) that I had on me when I got out of my car (Crown Victoria) and an officer said he 'could' arrest me for impersonating if he wanted to, since the 'average person' would believe that I was a police officer... I was like :what: ...


    RCW 9A.60.045
    Criminal impersonation in the second degree.


    (1) A person is guilty of criminal impersonation in the second degree if the person:

    (a)(i) Claims to be a law enforcement officer or creates an impression that he or she is a law enforcement officer; and

    (ii) Under circumstances not amounting to criminal impersonation in the first degree, does an act with intent to convey the impression that he or she is acting in an official capacity and a reasonable person would believe the person is a law enforcement officer; or

    (b) Falsely assumes the identity of a veteran or active duty member of the armed forces of the United States with intent to defraud for the purpose of personal gain or to facilitate any unlawful activity.

    (2) Criminal impersonation in the second degree is a gross misdemeanor.








    I would NOT carry handcuffs unless they were well hidden. ANY visual 'clues' about what your carrying and how the public can view it can make you guilty.

    Wanna explain to a jury why you were carrying a fake badge, handcuffs, and a gun, and then explain just how you weren't trying to look like a cop?
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    just_a_car wrote:
    To Doug Hoffman, ...
    Did you read my post or did some one just pull your chain flushing-out what ever is in your skull?

    Re your butt-buddy:
    An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argument in logic, consisting on basing the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge or position of the person asserting it. It is also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source. The corresponding reverse case would be an ad hominem attack: to imply that the claim is false because the asserter lacks authority or is otherwise objectionable.
    The basics; there is common law, statute law, case law and the State's law. They are not the same. I have no idea of the particulars of Washington State Statutes and made no claim that I do.

    Draw a gun and not fire it means that you have no common law reason to draw it. Deal with it.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I find the notion of cuffs and CCW badges, tacky and best, and a fantasy at worst. IIRC there was a thread about cuffs on the general subjects forum...
    +1

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