Jered
Regular Member
imported post
If someone asks, just say that you like kinky sex.
If someone asks, just say that you like kinky sex.
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I cant find the law!! Open Carry and Handcuffs?
- Thread starter Rook
- Start date
TechnoWeenie
Regular Member
imported post
Agent 47 wrote:
Not necessarily true, in WA you can get arrested if an officer has a reason to believe that you're trying to give the impression that you're an officer...
WA has a VERY loose law when it comes to police impersonation....
Hell, I have a radio (amateur radio operator) that I had on me when I got out of my car (Crown Victoria) and an officer said he 'could' arrest me for impersonating if he wanted to, since the 'average person' would believe that I was a police officer... I was like :what: ...
RCW 9A.60.045
Criminal impersonation in the second degree.
(1) A person is guilty of criminal impersonation in the second degree if the person:
(a)(i) Claims to be a law enforcement officer or creates an impression that he or she is a law enforcement officer; and
(ii) Under circumstances not amounting to criminal impersonation in the first degree, does an act with intent to convey the impression that he or she is acting in an official capacity and a reasonable person would believe the person is a law enforcement officer; or
(b) Falsely assumes the identity of a veteran or active duty member of the armed forces of the United States with intent to defraud for the purpose of personal gain or to facilitate any unlawful activity.
(2) Criminal impersonation in the second degree is a gross misdemeanor.
I would NOT carry handcuffs unless they were well hidden. ANY visual 'clues' about what your carrying and how the public can view it can make you guilty.
Wanna explain to a jury why you were carrying a fake badge, handcuffs, and a gun, and then explain just how you weren't trying to look like a cop?
Agent 47 wrote:
Not necessarily true, in WA you can get arrested if an officer has a reason to believe that you're trying to give the impression that you're an officer...
WA has a VERY loose law when it comes to police impersonation....
Hell, I have a radio (amateur radio operator) that I had on me when I got out of my car (Crown Victoria) and an officer said he 'could' arrest me for impersonating if he wanted to, since the 'average person' would believe that I was a police officer... I was like :what: ...
RCW 9A.60.045
Criminal impersonation in the second degree.
(1) A person is guilty of criminal impersonation in the second degree if the person:
(a)(i) Claims to be a law enforcement officer or creates an impression that he or she is a law enforcement officer; and
(ii) Under circumstances not amounting to criminal impersonation in the first degree, does an act with intent to convey the impression that he or she is acting in an official capacity and a reasonable person would believe the person is a law enforcement officer; or
(b) Falsely assumes the identity of a veteran or active duty member of the armed forces of the United States with intent to defraud for the purpose of personal gain or to facilitate any unlawful activity.
(2) Criminal impersonation in the second degree is a gross misdemeanor.
I would NOT carry handcuffs unless they were well hidden. ANY visual 'clues' about what your carrying and how the public can view it can make you guilty.
Wanna explain to a jury why you were carrying a fake badge, handcuffs, and a gun, and then explain just how you weren't trying to look like a cop?
Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
just_a_car wrote:
Did you read my post or did some one just pull your chain flushing-out what ever is in your skull?
Re your butt-buddy:
The basics; there is common law, statute law, case law and the State's law. They are not the same. I have no idea of the particulars of Washington State Statutes and made no claim that I do.
Draw a gun and not fire it means that you have no common law reason to draw it. Deal with it.
Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$
just_a_car wrote:
Did you read my post or did some one just pull your chain flushing-out what ever is in your skull?
Re your butt-buddy:
The basics; there is common law, statute law, case law and the State's law. They are not the same. I have no idea of the particulars of Washington State Statutes and made no claim that I do.
Draw a gun and not fire it means that you have no common law reason to draw it. Deal with it.
Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$
expvideo
Regular Member
imported post
sv_libertarian wrote:
sv_libertarian wrote:
+1
just_a_car
Regular Member
imported post
Doug Huffman wrote:
Did you read my post?... I didn't say you did claim to know our laws. What I posted was a plea, e.g. why I started with "Please".
As to 'common law' in WA, we don't have it regarding firearms. The way I deal with misinformation like your post is to bring forth the truth. Dealt with.
Doug Huffman wrote:
Did you read my post?... I didn't say you did claim to know our laws. What I posted was a plea, e.g. why I started with "Please".
As to 'common law' in WA, we don't have it regarding firearms. The way I deal with misinformation like your post is to bring forth the truth. Dealt with.
Morris
Regular Member
imported post
Draw a gun and not fire it means that you have no common law reason to draw it.
--------------------
In respect to all parties here, we do not have a concern with "common law" (for whatever that may mean). We deal with the RCW, WAC, local and county ordinances, 9th Circuit Case Law and when applicable, federal statutes. In the state of Washington, it is not illegal to draw your firearm and point it at someone if you meet the two tier test: 1) You felt your life was in danger; or, 2) You felt that the life of someone else or a group to be in danger. Not shooting someone is simply a response to an evalution of the situation, from the citizen and the potential thug's. If you draw your gun in response to someone coming at you with a bat and the thug holding the bat beats feet without you having to shoot, it is neither illegal nor incorrect. It is merely the response to a threat.
To the original poster: my apologies for the misdirect. Just needed to correct some misconceptions from a bacon bits and firearms instructor perspective.
As to the handcuff issue, simply wearing it in conjunction with a pistol will not rise you to a level of criminality as some here would suggest. Would it get you an additional look? Sure. But let's look at private dicks and bail enforcement folks. Some carry kit that at a glance could cause one to think they are cops. The point you violate the previously specified statutes is if you make an action (key here is intent and action) to cause others to believe you are a cop. From a practical standpoint for citizens who ask me, I remind them that carrying your gun, spare mag, flashlight is weighty enough. Now you want to add handcuffs to the mix? I direct them to the zip tie if they feel a need for handcuffs or temporary restraints. A zip tie is light, effective, less visible and can be easily defended in front of a hoplophobic/liberal jury/judge as a "temporary restraint." Besides, as we cops wrestle with off duty gun drawn/shootings, the issue brought up occasionally by lawyers is "If you had time to shoot them, why didn't you just handcuff them? Are you a cop? Are you pretending to be a cop?" Etc., etc.
No folks, save yourself the weight and the hassle and stick to what you really need: gun, spare ammunition and a light source. I wear a 18# bat belt 12 hours a day. When off duty carry, I want to be as light as possible to give my back and hips a break. Besides, unless you have those bracelets secured well enough, they get to sliding around or flopping out at inopportune moments. And no, I don't see the necessity to carry some cuffs or a belt badge off duty (badge in the wallet is required for our off duty carry concerns).
Draw a gun and not fire it means that you have no common law reason to draw it.
--------------------
In respect to all parties here, we do not have a concern with "common law" (for whatever that may mean). We deal with the RCW, WAC, local and county ordinances, 9th Circuit Case Law and when applicable, federal statutes. In the state of Washington, it is not illegal to draw your firearm and point it at someone if you meet the two tier test: 1) You felt your life was in danger; or, 2) You felt that the life of someone else or a group to be in danger. Not shooting someone is simply a response to an evalution of the situation, from the citizen and the potential thug's. If you draw your gun in response to someone coming at you with a bat and the thug holding the bat beats feet without you having to shoot, it is neither illegal nor incorrect. It is merely the response to a threat.
To the original poster: my apologies for the misdirect. Just needed to correct some misconceptions from a bacon bits and firearms instructor perspective.
As to the handcuff issue, simply wearing it in conjunction with a pistol will not rise you to a level of criminality as some here would suggest. Would it get you an additional look? Sure. But let's look at private dicks and bail enforcement folks. Some carry kit that at a glance could cause one to think they are cops. The point you violate the previously specified statutes is if you make an action (key here is intent and action) to cause others to believe you are a cop. From a practical standpoint for citizens who ask me, I remind them that carrying your gun, spare mag, flashlight is weighty enough. Now you want to add handcuffs to the mix? I direct them to the zip tie if they feel a need for handcuffs or temporary restraints. A zip tie is light, effective, less visible and can be easily defended in front of a hoplophobic/liberal jury/judge as a "temporary restraint." Besides, as we cops wrestle with off duty gun drawn/shootings, the issue brought up occasionally by lawyers is "If you had time to shoot them, why didn't you just handcuff them? Are you a cop? Are you pretending to be a cop?" Etc., etc.
No folks, save yourself the weight and the hassle and stick to what you really need: gun, spare ammunition and a light source. I wear a 18# bat belt 12 hours a day. When off duty carry, I want to be as light as possible to give my back and hips a break. Besides, unless you have those bracelets secured well enough, they get to sliding around or flopping out at inopportune moments. And no, I don't see the necessity to carry some cuffs or a belt badge off duty (badge in the wallet is required for our off duty carry concerns).
amlevin
Regular Member
imported post
Morris wrote:
And it is appropriate according to the requirement in State Law that only the necessary level of force be used to deal with the threat.
---------
[align=right][/align]
The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
(1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;
(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;
(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;
Morris wrote:
And it is appropriate according to the requirement in State Law that only the necessary level of force be used to deal with the threat.
---------
[align=right][/align]
The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
(1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;
(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;
(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;
Morris
Regular Member
imported post
For those concerned about perhaps being identified as a cop, may I suggest:
http://www.ombexpress.com/product~sku~RS060.asp
For those concerned about perhaps being identified as a cop, may I suggest:
http://www.ombexpress.com/product~sku~RS060.asp
eBratt
Regular Member
imported post
Hey, if you want them to know you aren't a cop, go all the way:
http://www.fuzzythis.com/fuzzy_handcuffs.html
Hey, if you want them to know you aren't a cop, go all the way:
http://www.fuzzythis.com/fuzzy_handcuffs.html
Agent 47
Regular Member
imported post
Morris wrote:
Morris wrote:
That's great, I (and I am sure you do as well ) know a couple officers who carry those.
just_a_car
Regular Member
imported post
Morris wrote:
Morris wrote:
I'm sure showing up at the lockup in those is quite the deterent to offending again. *snicker*
Morris
Regular Member
imported post
Sadly, I do know a couple that have them. Female, so far. Although I may keep a pair around for those hard cases and then take the trophy photo of 'em wearing the pink ones.
Sadly, I do know a couple that have them. Female, so far. Although I may keep a pair around for those hard cases and then take the trophy photo of 'em wearing the pink ones.
Crackajack
Regular Member
imported post
I intend to get a set of pink handcuffs to be used exclusively for the "tough-guy" perps
I intend to get a set of pink handcuffs to be used exclusively for the "tough-guy" perps
expvideo
Regular Member
imported post
You can't find the law because it doesn't exist. It is not illegal in WA to carry handcuffs, openly or not.
ETA: Remember that cops aren't going to be as friendly to you about OC if they think that you're just doing it to be mistaken for a cop. Seeing the handcuffs might give them this impression.
You can't find the law because it doesn't exist. It is not illegal in WA to carry handcuffs, openly or not.
ETA: Remember that cops aren't going to be as friendly to you about OC if they think that you're just doing it to be mistaken for a cop. Seeing the handcuffs might give them this impression.
Mainsail
Regular Member
imported post
Oh sheesh, here we go with the handcuffs again. Think about how you might employ them now, before you ever find yourself in the position to actually use them. If you are in a situation where you have to draw your firearm, you will likely be experiencing an adrenalin dump that will leave you shaking. DON’T think it’s going to be some smooth encounter like on TV, where the suave hero calmly pulls his sidearm and makes a witty comment to the thug. If you have to detain someone you will not want to be getting kissing-close to him or her. Desperate people will do almost anything to avoid jail, especially if you represent their ‘third strike’ and they’ll be heading to the slam for life. Even with the perp face down on the ground, he can spin and poke a knife in your nut-sack faster than you can say Rumpelstiltskin. Additionally, do you really want to play patty-cake with someone who may have hepatitis or AIDS?
Leave the cuffs at home and the handcuffing to the guys who are trained to do it.
Oh sheesh, here we go with the handcuffs again. Think about how you might employ them now, before you ever find yourself in the position to actually use them. If you are in a situation where you have to draw your firearm, you will likely be experiencing an adrenalin dump that will leave you shaking. DON’T think it’s going to be some smooth encounter like on TV, where the suave hero calmly pulls his sidearm and makes a witty comment to the thug. If you have to detain someone you will not want to be getting kissing-close to him or her. Desperate people will do almost anything to avoid jail, especially if you represent their ‘third strike’ and they’ll be heading to the slam for life. Even with the perp face down on the ground, he can spin and poke a knife in your nut-sack faster than you can say Rumpelstiltskin. Additionally, do you really want to play patty-cake with someone who may have hepatitis or AIDS?
Leave the cuffs at home and the handcuffing to the guys who are trained to do it.
Morris
Regular Member
imported post
Brings up a solid point. Citizen or cop, it doesn't matter. If you plan on carrying handcuffs and plan on using them, you had better get some training. One of the most frequent sources of lawsuits for peace officers is the use of handcuffs and what force they were used with. We get sued frequently for siliness like that. We have the protection of the city and insurance company. Now, do you have that protection when the civil suit comes (and it will, in ourlawsuit happy society)? Will you have documented training to add a layer of protection? Do you have the training to apply the handcuffs if you are solo and are now holstering? (The most common type of injury to cops at this point is when the gun is away and the cuffs are coming out or just one on the suspect - freedom is about to be lost and a human's flight or fight mechanism WILL kick in. Lots of folks do not get handcuffed meekly).
As an example of the siliness we see as bacon bits, very early in my career, I had a fellow accuse me via complaint that I was overly aggressive in my application of the handcuffs to him. His complaint was that peace officers were never that aggressive with persons of color but because he was white, I felt I had to be more aggressive to him.
Seriously. A real complaint for that. Chief laughed and dismissed it right away but you get the point.
From this bacon bits perspective, the open carry of handcuffs will get you more attention. No, it is not illegal. Just foolhardy without training (we have to go through recert training yearly to meet state and insurance requirements).
Brings up a solid point. Citizen or cop, it doesn't matter. If you plan on carrying handcuffs and plan on using them, you had better get some training. One of the most frequent sources of lawsuits for peace officers is the use of handcuffs and what force they were used with. We get sued frequently for siliness like that. We have the protection of the city and insurance company. Now, do you have that protection when the civil suit comes (and it will, in ourlawsuit happy society)? Will you have documented training to add a layer of protection? Do you have the training to apply the handcuffs if you are solo and are now holstering? (The most common type of injury to cops at this point is when the gun is away and the cuffs are coming out or just one on the suspect - freedom is about to be lost and a human's flight or fight mechanism WILL kick in. Lots of folks do not get handcuffed meekly).
As an example of the siliness we see as bacon bits, very early in my career, I had a fellow accuse me via complaint that I was overly aggressive in my application of the handcuffs to him. His complaint was that peace officers were never that aggressive with persons of color but because he was white, I felt I had to be more aggressive to him.
Seriously. A real complaint for that. Chief laughed and dismissed it right away but you get the point.
From this bacon bits perspective, the open carry of handcuffs will get you more attention. No, it is not illegal. Just foolhardy without training (we have to go through recert training yearly to meet state and insurance requirements).
joshmmm
Regular Member
imported post
Mainsail wrote:
While I certainly don't carry cuffs, I could see them as being useful. It seems to me that if I ever need to use my gun to hold a suspect, it is highly likely someone else is either present at the time or is a LOT closer than the nearest cop.
If someone is being held at gunpoint, laid out on the ground, it seems that most people of decent size in relation to the perpwould be able to handcuff a person laying on the ground while he is held at gunpoint without significant risk of injury.
Hell, I could see helping an officer in a rural area handcuff a suspect. (this would seem entirely unnecessary in the city where backup is nearby... but out in the woods, the nearest backup could be a long way out...)
Mainsail wrote:
While I certainly don't carry cuffs, I could see them as being useful. It seems to me that if I ever need to use my gun to hold a suspect, it is highly likely someone else is either present at the time or is a LOT closer than the nearest cop.
If someone is being held at gunpoint, laid out on the ground, it seems that most people of decent size in relation to the perpwould be able to handcuff a person laying on the ground while he is held at gunpoint without significant risk of injury.
Hell, I could see helping an officer in a rural area handcuff a suspect. (this would seem entirely unnecessary in the city where backup is nearby... but out in the woods, the nearest backup could be a long way out...)
Bear 45/70
Regular Member
imported post
joshmmm wrote:
joshmmm wrote:
You would be wrong in thinking someone not trained in applying cuffs could do it easily. I once saw a guy come out from under a prone combat search and in that case there is no requirement not to shoot the guy thru his spine which is where your muzzle is.
Mainsail
Regular Member
imported post
joshmmm wrote:
joshmmm wrote:
So if he jumps up and runs away, do you shoot?